Man's nature

[webdog]

When I was a young Christian I struggled for a long time with the doctrines of grace alone. One way my friend was reading the Bible in the workshop and suddenly he gave me the Bible and said, "Read that for me". It was a verse from the Acts of the Apostles chapter 13 and verse 48. So I read It was that verse that finally convinced me that our salvation is entirely of the grace of God from the beginning to the end.

He should have showed you this one from Acts...

24"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.

In addition, if you based your entire soteriological belief on one verse used as a proof text, you have a flawed soteriological understanding.

 

[psalms109:31]

Saved

God Himself said that He will keep the meek and the humble who trust in the name of the Lord.

I have no problem with Him who He will draw, there is a reason and a purpose and that purpose is found in His word not a mans idea.

Those that He has ordained to eternal life believed, I praise God for that.

He has hidden the truth from the wise and learned and revealed it to children.

Just come to Jesus as a child and Jesus will in no wise cast you out.

I spent so long searching who are these preordainred to eternal life and through His word He has revealed it to me. That He will keep those who are meek and humble who trust in the name of the Lord. No one who is that will talk about what they themselves have done but they will praise God our Father through Jesus in what He has done.

God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. If you walk away from Jesus you walk away from life eternal.

If you haven't come to Jesus, just come to Him and He will in no wise cast you out.

 

[psalms109:31]

Body of Jesus

Who has God chosen from the beginning. It sure wasn't me and you it is Jesus Christ and those who are in Him. If God didn't know who they were He wouldn't be God.

You were not chosen outside of Jesus Christ you were chosen in Him.

We are Christ body and it is Christ body that God has chosen to save before the salvation of the world.

 

[psalms109:31]

veil

2 Corinthians 3:12Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

 

[grahame]

In addition, if you based your entire soteriological belief on one verse used as a proof text, you have a flawed soteriological understanding.

Don't be silly. Of course my whole belief is not based on one verse. What, do you think I'm still in dypers? Really some people do come out with the silliest of statements. I sometimes wonder if they have the ability to think in any logical manner. How old do you think I am for goodness sake? You must really learn to read between the lines and take some things as said instead of trying to make others look like fools :laugh:

 

[Marcia]

..As I said, belief is evidence of eternal life, not the cause of it:

He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life;......Jn 3:36

.....He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life,...Jn5:24

... He that believeth hath eternal life. Jn 6:47

It shows that life precedes belief. If you were to persuade one to believe on Christ, well, the Spirit's already been there and made that person alive so that they could believe. Note, it doesn't say he that believes will get eternal life; it says he that believes has it already.

Don't the verses you quote show that belief precedes eternal life? I don't see how they are supporting the view that life precedes belief. one believes and one has eternal life.

 

[grahame]

He should have showed you this one from Acts...

24"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.

Yes but the plain facts are they don't seek him or reach out to him or find him, without His grace. That is why Paul was preaching to those at Athens. Because after all their seeking they still hadn't found the true God and still would be in ignorance not if Paul had not gone there. To this day there is not one person who has found the true God by their own searching. Have you not read

There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth , there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way , they are together become unprofitable ; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

(Romans 3:10-12) What? do you not think that you need the grace of God to believe in Christ? Do you think he is interested in any poor righteousness that you might have within you so that you can claim that it was YOUR FAITH that saved you and not the grace of God? Will you be among those in heaven who will be singing, "I did it myyyyyy way"? What is it with man. That even when saved he must still hang on to some kind of vestige of righteousness, even if it is heavily disguised as faith?

 

[webdog]

Don't be silly. Of course my whole belief is not based on one verse. What, do you think I'm still in dypers? Really some people do come out with the silliest of statements. I sometimes wonder if they have the ability to think in any logical manner. How old do you think I am for goodness sake? You must really learn to read between the lines and take some things as said instead of trying to make others look like fools :laugh:

I wasn't really trying to do anything...it was your own words that condemned you...hence that was the "logical thinking" approach I took, reading your own words which were...

"One way my friend was reading the Bible in the workshop and suddenly he gave me the Bible and said, "Read that for me".

It was that verse that finally convinced me that our salvation is entirely of the grace of God from the beginning to the end.

 

[webdog]

Yes but the plain facts are they don't seek him or reach out to him or find him, without His grace. That is why Paul was preaching to those at Athens. Because after all their seeking they still hadn't found the true God and would not if Paul had not gone there. Have you not read (Romans 3:10-12)

So you are telling me I should not take Paul's words at face value there? God has not put man in the perfect location, place and time in history to seek Him (HIS act of grace in doing so)? These people are unable to seek him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him?

You edited your post while I was replying, and don't understand why as it is filled with nothing but strawmen and non sequiturs. Deal with what I actually say, not what you want to hear.

 

[zrs6v4]

So you are telling me I should not take Paul's words at face value there? God has not put man in the perfect location, place and time in history to seek Him (HIS act of grace in doing so)? These people are unable to seek him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him?

You edited your post while I was replying, and don't understand why as it is filled with nothing but strawmen and non sequiturs. Deal with what I actually say, not what you want to hear.

1. You should take Paul's words as face value and nothing more or less.
2. It does not say an act of grace (maybe goodness is implied), it just says God did it that way.
3. It doesn't say whether people are able or unable to seek out and find God.
4. In my opinion (sorry to interrupt the polite discussion ) you cant assume one thing or another based on this verse.

Webdog, I do see your point by the way. I just hate making assumptions that man (in bondage to sin) is able to come to God on his own or vise versa.

I also hope that man would reach out and find God, but it is hard to say what was in the mind of Paul (or God) when preaching to the men of Athens. Paul and God could have been generally meaning that they wish that they would seek God.

 

[psalms109:31]

Seek Him

There is none that do seek after God, so God seeks after us. To me that is a call for us to go to reach them.

So God sends us out to seek the world.

Mark 16:15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned

Matthew 28:
The Great Commission
16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

2 Corinthians 5:16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.

 

[grahame]

So you are telling me I should not take Paul's words at face value there? God has not put man in the perfect location, place and time in history to seek Him (HIS act of grace in doing so)? These people are unable to seek him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him?

You edited your post while I was replying, and don't understand why as it is filled with nothing but strawmen and non sequiturs. Deal with what I actually say, not what you want to hear.

No no my friend, it is not full of straw men, whatever they are. It is an answer from many years of being a Christian and preaching the gospel. I am not a "hyper" Calvinist.

I have known men that do not even preach the gospel. But God has whilst ordaining that some should be saved and some not, has also ordained that we should preach the gospel so that men should be saved. But there are many things that we cannot understand about God's election of men to salvation. But just because we don't understand them it doesn't mean they are not so.

Someone once said that the free will of man and the irresistable grace of God are like two parallel lines that meet in eternity. But being a Calvinist I know I am in good company. For ALL the early fathers, who followed and knew the apostles or were contemporary with them believed in the election of God. For every one of them always referred to the saved in Christ as "The Elect".

For they had all seen that their salvation could not have taken place except God had drawn them by the Holy Spirit to believe on the Saviour. My dear friend it even takes grace to believe in these doctrines of grace, for the human heart naturally hates them. Some because they believe it does not glorify God. Some because they cannot see it in the scriptures, but how I do not know. And some do not believe it because they think that they somehow have some virtue left in them to believe. That man is not really that impotent that they cannot reach out to the true God.

As for me I see this:

hope maketh not ashamed ; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. 6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die : yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die . 8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled , we shall be saved by his life.

(Romans 5:5-10)
This is how I personally see it. I am not interested in "straw men", whatever they are. I am not interested in "winning" any arguments here against any brother in Christ, Im too long in the tooth for that, what teeth I have left that is. But I did take exception because one thought that I was basing my whole theology after many years upon just one Bible text.

Believe me the Christian road is not that easy. It is not just a question of believing this verse or that verse. It is a daily struggle, even through the grace of God, not only to live the life that Christ desires us to live. But also to win souls for Christ. Yes I know I am a Calvinist. But let me also stress in human terms, if a person will not come to Christ he will not come, whatever argument you put to him. It takes no less than a miracle from God.

Yes, the new birth is a miracle of God within the heart of man. For John the baptist said, "God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham". (Matthew 3:9) and to echo the words of a famous puritan, "And He does". For He has changed my rebellious heart into an heart of flesh. Having said all we must preach the gospel for it is "by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe".

ps: yes I sometimes edit my posts (1) sometimes because of spelling mistakes (I don't get them all) Put it down to age and eyesight, and (2) I do think of things afterwards. Sometimes I put a reason sometimes I do not. But I don't wish to fight with a brother in Christ on these things. For the Christian life is hard enough and enemies of Christ sufficient enough without Christians going head to head.

 

[grahame]

I wasn't really trying to do anything...it was your own words that condemned you...hence that was the "logical thinking" approach I took, reading your own words which were...

"One way my friend was reading the Bible in the workshop and suddenly he gave me the Bible and said, "Read that for me".

It was that verse that finally convinced me that our salvation is entirely of the grace of God from the beginning to the end.

What you should have seen from my words is that it wasn't just that verse that convinced me, but "finally" convinced me, after years of struggling with these things and through years of studying these things. Also I was very young in those days. I also had not much assurance of my salvation. Tje reason was I was basing my hope upon what I was doing withing myself. But after this I had great assurance, for I finally saw that it was not dependent upon my works, good or bad. But on Christ alone through God's grace alone.
I referred to that instance in my life because that moment was a life changing experience for me. Not because it was just one verse. can you not see that? You surprise me.

 

[Allan]

Don't the verses you quote show that belief precedes eternal life? I don't see how they are supporting the view that life precedes belief. one believes and one has eternal life.

Marcia, with respect to the Primitive Baptist (PB) beleifs the elect are 'born saved' (eternal life) on the other hand, some of those who have eternal life can choose to obtain temporal life (salvation in this life) by placing faith in Christ. However, whether one believes or not makes no difference to the persons eternal salvation in their view, as they are already saved by God irregardless of faith.

 

[kyredneck]

There is a difference between total depravity and the totally depraved men and women doing good works. Total Depravity does not mean people dont do lawful things like go to church, give to the poor, love family, and so forth. It means that even though they might do good things they still arent doing them in faith or in honor of the greatest command. People who are totally depraved dont submit to God and never please God because even if they do good it isnt to God's glory which is our highest calling. This is why their entire lives are one consistent set of sins that never stop until converted.

I think Paul in Romans 2 is showing that the Gentiles do good things and show that they have an internal concept of right and wrong. Even if they dont have God's Law they are condemned because it is written on their hearts. I think God has put this knowledge in our hearts. This is why morality exists and people feel guilty even when they dont know God.

Even our best choice we have ever made is very dark. What I mean by this is that there is never a point that our hearts are perfect as we can agree. What I mean is when I am doing one thing right, say not stealing, then there are probably a hundred other things I am doing wrong. I may be giving something to the poor, but am I hating a friend, or am I jealous of a person's stuff, etc.. We cant beat this by trying to beat the Law, but by faith we do the things written in it as we are free from it.

Zach, I'm in agreement with you on everything except for your take on Ro 2 (as before). In Romans 1-3, Paul is condemning the entire human race, whether Jew or Greek ( there is no respect of persons with God), all are under sin. But also contained within these passages is a direct inference [2:14-29] to the work of the Spirit in regeneration, whether Jew or Greek ( there is no respect of persons with God). [ http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1477133#post1477133 ]

 

[kyredneck]

Marcia, with respect to the Primitive Baptist (PB) beleifs the elect are 'born saved' (eternal life) on the other hand, some of those who have eternal life can choose to obtain temporal life (salvation in this life) by placing faith in Christ. However, whether one believes or not makes no difference to the persons eternal salvation in their view, as they are already saved by God irregardless of faith.

Allan, or anyone else for that matter, for a proper understanding of Primitive Baptist theology I would refer you to these brief essays by Elder Michael L. Gowens, who, IMO, does a superb job in articulating our doctrines.

http://www.sovgrace.net/index.php/theological-essays/39-salvation

Of immediate relevance to this post, I would recommend these two essays:

Born Again: The Doctrine of Effectual Calling

Christ The Only Mediator

Excerpt from 'Born Again: The Doctrine of Effectual Calling' (emphasis mine):

“The effectual call is a call to eternal salvation; the gospel call is a call to repentance and faith (Acts 2:38; Acts 3:19; Acts 17:30; Acts 20:21; Acts 26:20). The effectual call is a call to sonship; the gospel call is a call to discipleship. God speaks directly in the effectual call; God speaks through men in the gospel call. The effectual call is always obeyed; the gospel call is frequently disobeyed, shunned, and resisted. The effectual call is a creation; the gospel call is a communication. The effectual call is directed to the dead; the gospel call is directed to the living. The effectual call is an internal call; the gospel call is an external appeal. The effectual call produces life (2 Tim. 1:9); the gospel call produces light (2 Tim. 1:10). The sinner responds involuntarily in the effectual call (like Lazarus). The gospel call, however, calls for a voluntary, decisive response ("...harden not your hearts" - Heb. 3:15). The conclusive testimony of Scripture is that the effectual call precedes the gospel call and that the effectual call gives a man spiritual life, while the gospel call gives a man knowledge and understanding. This distinction between regeneration and gospel conversion is essential.”

 

[Allan]

Allan, or anyone else for that matter, for a proper understanding of Primitive Baptist theology I would refer you to these brief essays by Elder Michael L. Gowens, who, IMO, does a superb job in articulating our doctrines.

http://www.sovgrace.net/index.php/theological-essays/39-salvation

Of immediate relevance to this post, I would recommend these two essays:

Born Again: The Doctrine of Effectual Calling

Christ The Only Mediator

Excerpt from 'Born Again: The Doctrine of Effectual Calling' (emphasis mine):

I have read them and others as well, though I respectfully disagree entirely - I was not talking about the two 'supposed' callings God calls with.

My point was to help her and others understand and that the Primitive Baptist view of eternal salavation regarding the elect is that they are already born eternally saved.
This is shown here in your own citation:

According to this verse, what effect does the gospel have on the unregenerate? Is it "the power of God unto salvation" (Rom. 1:16) to him? No, it is "foolishness" to him. It is only the power of God unto salvation unto the man who has already been saved. The gospel will save the saved man, if he keeps it in memory (I Cor. 15:1-3). The salvation (or deliverance) the gospel effects in the life of the believer is not, however, new birth, but a salvation "from this untoward generation" (Acts 2:40), an escape from the "pollutions of the world through the knowledge of Jesus Christ our Lord" (2 Pet. 2:19-20). It is, if you please, sanctification, not regeneration: "Sanctify them through thy truth; thy word is truth" (Jno. 17:17). How we should rejoice in the truth of Romans 1:16! But we must not assign a meaning to this verse that contradicts I Corinthians 1:18. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation to the believer, not the unregenerate. To the unregenerate, it is foolishness. But once an individual is given spiritual life, once he is saved, it is the power of God to transform his life (Rom. 12:2; 2 Cor. 3:18).

Does the sinner's eternal destiny depend upon his belief in Jesus Christ? If so, what if his faith is shaken by false teachers? What if he is deceived? Does he then lose the eternal life he once possessed? Thanks be to God that the eternal destiny of the elect does not depend upon man's faith, but on God's sovereign covenant decrees: "What if some do not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid... [Hymaneus and Philetus] have erred concerning the truth saying that the resurrection is past already, and have overthrown the faith of some. Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are His..." (2 Tim. 2:13,19). Belief in Jesus Christ comes after, not before, regeneration. Faith cannot be both the cause and the effect of life. It cannot be both the "root" from which the Spirit grows in one's heart, and the "fruit" that the Spirit generates in the heart. The Spirit of God is the cause of regeneration. Faith is the effect, the "fruit of the Spirit" (Gal. 5:22). An understanding of total depravity makes belief in the doctrine of immediate regeneration a necessity, for the dead sinner does not have the ability to exercise faith until he is born again. This leads us to the next argument.

Editted by me as the comment was not necessary - But my point was not to contend with you but to inform those whom you and other PB's were speaking to so they would understand 'where' you were coming from, especially since this view does not comport with Calvinist or Reformed teachings (with the exception of Hyper-C).
Thus what I stated in my previous post is entirely accurate.

 

[kyredneck]

....Editted by me as the comment was not necessary - But my point was not to contend with you but to inform those whom you and other PB's were speaking to so they would understand 'where' you were coming from, especially since this view does not comport with Calvinist or Reformed teachings (with the exception of Hyper-C).......

Allan, I never took your post as a point of contention.

To make the distinction between regeneration and conversion classifies one as 'Hyper-C'? I think not.

 

[Allan]

Allan, I never took your post as a point of contention.

To make the distinction between regeneration and conversion classifies one as 'Hyper-C'? I think not.

No, not that

That one is born (natural birth) already saved prior to faith.

 

[kyredneck]

No, not that

That one is born (natural birth) already saved prior to faith.

Although David was made to hope while on his mother's breast, and John the Baptist jumped for joy in his mother's womb, the way you put it is not what PBs believe. It is 100% Christ's call on when and how He deals with His children. Take Paul for example; was his experience on the road to Damascus regeneration or conversion? (heheh, whichever it was he never had much choice in the matter)