Man's nature

[annsni]

Here are some quotes:

http://baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1496657&postcount=160

http://baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1496875&postcount=166

This doesn't make sense no matter how you look at it.
Man has no free will, no choice, until God comes and regenerates his heart. I suppose he could do that to the heathen in Africa or to anyone in this world--kind of like universalism. But it is God that does the work; it doesn't matter who receives it because we know it is "the elect." Somehow this is a magical event. There is no faith involved.

Not until the above event, the new birth, takes place can man have the faith to respond to the gospel call.
That is not what happened on the Day of Pentecost. And you would have a hard time proving it.

Just because OR says it doesn't mean it's the common belief of Calvinists. No reformed belief says that man is born again against his will or in spite of his will. I don't know where universalism comes in - because that's certainly not what the reformed belief is.

Let's look at some other quotes from those who stand on the doctrine of grace:

How Regeneration is Accomplished

In regeneration a person the Holy Spirit makes use of the law and the gospel. There is not only a moral but also a direct nature-changing work of the Spirit on the minds or souls of men in regeneration. This is what we must hold on to, or all the glory of God’s grace is lost, and the grace which comes to us by Christ will be neglected. Paul tells us of this direct work of the Spirit: “That you may know ... what s the exceeding greatness of his power towards us who believe, according to the work of his mighty power which he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead’ (Eph 1:18:- 2). The power here mentioned has an exceeding greatness attributed to it, because by this power Christ was physically raised from the dead. Paul would have us know that the same mighty power which God worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead is the same mighty power which the Holy Spirit works when he raises us from spiritual death to spiritual life in regeneration. By this same mighty power we are kept by God to the day of salvation. It is because of his mighty power continually working in Christians that they are kept from ever falling away so as to be eternally lost.

...Where any work of grace begun in a person does not result in regeneration and the salvation of that person, it is because God never intended to regenerate that person, and so did not work that work in him. There is an important doctrinal principle to learn here. When the Holy Spirit intends to regenerate a person, he removes all obstacles, overcomes all resistance and opposition, and infallibly produces the result he intended.

...how can this be done without forcing and compelling the will? ..the work of regeneration is an internal work, transforming our very nature. This work of regeneration is not preached to the will and so it not resisted by the will, but it works effectively on the will, wonderfully renewing it. The will, in the first act of conversion, does not will or choose to act first and then is regenerated. Rather it is first renewed by regeneration and then it wills or chooses. The will lies passive or inert until roused by the Holy Spirit in regeneration. There is an inward, almighty, secret act of power producing or working in us the will to be converted to God. This act of power so works on our wills [affections] that we freely and gladly will what God wants us to will and choose, which is to do his will.

by John Owen http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/owenoverthrow.html

Spiritual affections, which give rise to the desire to come to Christ, are only possible though regeneration, the sovereign act of a merciful God. This re-creation generates the effects of repentance and faith. Many modern-day churches have abandoned this biblical teaching which was recovered at the Reformation. Some pastors turn the truth on its head and say that a man’s autonomous faith is what produces the new birth. But this fails to account for the existence of spiritual desires ... where did they get them? ... and especially, prior to conversion, why do some men have such spiritual affections and not others? This utterly fails to recognize the depth of our hostile unspiritual heart condition, prior to salvation, nor does it account for the existence of spiritual affections at all. Such a wonderful gift does not appear out of thin air ... no ... it derives its source and benefit from the person and work of Christ alone.

John Hendryx http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/spirit_affections.html

In reading these, I like the terms that they're using to better describe what happens. The Holy Spirit "quickens" man and "enlightens" him - man responds in the way that he will respond to the Gospel by putting his faith in Christ - and he is "born" at that point. It all happens so closely together that it seems to be one movement but it is, in fact, separate.

 

[DHK]

We will have to agree to disagree. I don't agree with Owen either. Irresistable grace is easily refutable in the Bible:

This work of regeneration is not preached to the will and so it not resisted by the will,

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

It is quite evident that the Holy Spirit (and thus the grace of God) can be resisted.

 

[annsni]

We will have to agree to disagree. I don't agree with Owen either. Irresistable grace is easily refutable in the Bible:

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

It is quite evident that the Holy Spirit (and thus the grace of God) can be resisted.

Is it resisted by the will or the nature?

 

[zrs6v4]

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

People who are unregenerate always resist the Spirit (Or people without the Spirit or people who are in flesh alone). I dont think this is talking about the irresistable work of God's Spirit. I think this is talking about sinners who always reject God as He stands there with His arms open wide for people to repent, and they dont.

 

[Marcia]

And I'm sure it's so that you can carry on in your relentless campaign to discredit the doctrines of God's Sovereign Grace. But, who knows, you may actually learn something. Be careful Winman, be very careful.

This was not said to me but it's one reason Calvinism seems to defeat itself by its followers - those who support it tell those who disagree that they are against the bible or the "doctrines of God's Sovereign Grace," or something like that. Isee this here all the time - all the time!

It's just being mean is what it is.

 

[Marcia]

"Regeneration" for a Calvinist is not the "regeneration" for an Arminian. It's not salvation but a wakening to be able to receive salvation.

I thought regeneration was being born from above and being indwelt by the Holy Spirit. This comes after belief according to what I read in the bible.

 

[Marcia]

Allan is the only one who responded to my post #46.

Here it is again.

Originally Posted by kyredneck
..As I said, belief is evidence of eternal life, not the cause of it:

He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life;......Jn 3:36

.....He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life,...Jn5:24

... He that believeth hath eternal life. Jn 6:47

It shows that life precedes belief. If you were to persuade one to believe on Christ, well, the Spirit's already been there and made that person alive so that they could believe. Note, it doesn't say he that believes will get eternal life; it says he that believes has it already.

Don't the verses you quote show that belief precedes eternal life? I don't see how they are supporting the view that life precedes belief. one believes and one has eternal life.

Well? Any Calvinist here care to defend Kyredneck or respond?

 

[annsni]

I thought regeneration was being born from above and being indwelt by the Holy Spirit. This comes after belief according to what I read in the bible.

Yes, being born again comes after being indwelt by the Holy Spirit. However, there is a "quickening" where we have our natures changed from dead to being alive to respond to Christ - and we do. A dead man cannot respond. Think of Lazarus - he was dead and there was nothing he could do to become alive again. But God made him alive again to hear Christ's voice - and he responded. He didn't lay in the grave saying "Nah - I'll stay here".

So the reformed position is that God quickens the spirit of man to make him be ABLE to respond to Him and man will then respond in faith. So man still makes the choice and puts his faith in Christ but it is not until the Word of God opens his eyes and stirs his heart to be able to respond.

The Arminian side says that man is able to respond to God in his natural human state but I just do not see that ability in Scripture. If man is dead, how can he respond to God?

 

[annsni]

Allan is the only one who responded to my post #46.

Here it is again.

Don't the verses you quote show that belief precedes eternal life? I don't see how they are supporting the view that life precedes belief. one believes and one has eternal life.

Well? Any Calvinist here care to defend Kyredneck or respond?

I agree with you. Belief precedes eternal life. That is absolutely supported by Scripture.

 

[Marcia]

Yes, being born again comes after being indwelt by the Holy Spirit. However, there is a "quickening" where we have our natures changed from dead to being alive to respond to Christ - and we do. A dead man cannot respond. Think of Lazarus - he was dead and there was nothing he could do to become alive again. But God made him alive again to hear Christ's voice - and he responded. He didn't lay in the grave saying "Nah - I'll stay here".

So the reformed position is that God quickens the spirit of man to make him be ABLE to respond to Him and man will then respond in faith. So man still makes the choice and puts his faith in Christ but it is not until the Word of God opens his eyes and stirs his heart to be able to respond.

The Arminian side says that man is able to respond to God in his natural human state but I just do not see that ability in Scripture. If man is dead, how can he respond to God?

Ann, you are always nice and I like you. You are the nicest Calvinist on the BB, imo. :wavey:

I've heard this example of Lazarus before, but the story of Lazarus was not about salvation but about the power Jesus had to raise the dead. It should not be used as an allegory of salvation. That is just not good hermeneutics.

I don't see scriptural support, however, for the "quickening." It's just not there. The way God saves is hidden from us, as far as I'm concerned. He tells us we are elect and chosen and He tells us to believe. Salvation is a mystery that we cannot dissect.

Being spiritually dead means being separated from God, and unreconciled to Him, not unable to respond.

 

[Marcia]

I agree with you. Belief precedes eternal life. That is absolutely supported by Scripture.

Thanks, Ann!:wavey:

 

[DHK]

Is it resisted by the will or the nature?

They are one and the same.
Either you will yield you will to the Spirit or to the flesh/sin.
Either you will yield you nature to the Spirit or to sin.

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

The battle is in the mind.

 

[DHK]

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

People who are unregenerate always resist the Spirit (Or people without the Spirit or people who are in flesh alone).

No they don't. If they did, then you or anyone else on this world would not be saved. The reason people are saved is that they yield themselves to the Holy Spirit. Consider the work of the Holy Spirit:

John 16:8-11 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

The Holy Spirits convicts the unregenerate of sin. If He didn't, they wouldn't be saved. Of sin because they believe not on me. This is specifically speaking of the unregenerate.

I dont think this is talking about the irresistable work of God's Spirit. I think this is talking about sinners who always reject God as He stands there with His arms open wide for people to repent, and they dont.

He was speaking of the Jews--God's chosen people in Acts chapter 7. He was referring to their fathers in the past--the Israelites. Stephen himself was an Israelite.
As on the Day of Pentecost, they had a choice to make. They were convicted of the Holy Spirit. They could either reject the Holy Spirit or receive Him. On the Day of Pentecost out of the thousands that were there, there were 3,000 that received Him, and thousands of others that resisted him. Why the difference? There was free will among the unregenerate. Some resisted and some did not.

 

[kyredneck]

This was not said to me but it's one reason Calvinism seems to defeat itself by its followers - those who support it tell those who disagree that they are against the bible or the "doctrines of God's Sovereign Grace," or something like that. Isee this here all the time - all the time!

It's just being mean is what it is.

No Marcia, it's people like you who are not only 'mean', but downright deceptive in your persistent insidious implications that all monergists are really just followers of Calvin.

One needs only to do a very brief scan of Winman's posts to realize his whole intent on this site is to bash the monergists and label them all as Calvinists, which really I take pride in the label, but for those newbies outside looking in, they could easily get the wrong impression towards us. Yeah, it is a shameful, deceitful tactic that you believers in 'Man's Sovereign Will' use quite often.

You, Marcia, should be ashamed.

 

[kyredneck]

How do you figure?
I posted what the PB believe regarding election (eternal salvation) vs. Temporal or timely salvation. THEN..I quoted from 'your own sourse material' the EXACT SAME THING.., that being - only a saved person can be saved.

Here is another post from another PB'er who states this EXACT same thing in another ongoing thread:



So here is a question that should clear me up and at least get me going in the right direction rather than misrepresentating your view - which I DO NOT wish to do.

Question:
Are there people who are saved that have never or will never believe?

ie. people who are JW's, Mormons, occulticts, Pagans, atheists, ect..through their death, never believing.
This is what all the other PB'ers on the board have stated through various debate about this very discussion.

Allan, before going into this I wish first to clearly understand what you are saying the PBs believe.

Are you saying that we say ALL God's redeemed, born from above, are physically born into this world in a regenerated state?

Also, if you would, answer the question I posed to you in post #64. [ correction- Post # 63 ]

 

[Allan]

Why do you find that intriguing? Do you think that Paul may have 'skated by' without adhering to the complete 'formula' one has to follow in order to acquire eternal life? Please explain.

Is there a formula to follow to aquire eternal life? Yes, the bible states whosoever believes 'shall have' eternal or everlasting life.

What is eternal or everlasting life?
“And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.".
Eternal life = having a relationship with God, and His Christ, Jesus.

If one does not have a relationship with both God and His Son, Jesus, then according to scripture he does not have eternal life.

 

[kyredneck]

Allan is the only one who responded to my post #46.

Here it is again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kyredneck
..As I said, belief is evidence of eternal life, not the cause of it:

He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life;......Jn 3:36

.....He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life,...Jn5:24

... He that believeth hath eternal life. Jn 6:47

It shows that life precedes belief. If you were to persuade one to believe on Christ, well, the Spirit's already been there and made that person alive so that they could believe. Note, it doesn't say he that believes will get eternal life; it says he that believes has it already.

Don't the verses you quote show that belief precedes eternal life? I don't see how they are supporting the view that life precedes belief. one believes and one has eternal life.

Marcia, the very last sentence of my post should be plain enough for a third grader to understand it. Here it is again, just for you Marcia:

Note, it doesn't say he that believes will get eternal life; it says he that believes has it already.

 

[Allan]

Allan, before going into this I wish first to clearly understand what you are saying the PBs believe.

Are you saying that we say ALL God's redeemed, born from above, are physically born into this world in a regenerated state?

From all the PB's I have debated with and those on this board that I have specifically spoken with (as well as the materials I have read from them), believe the elect is composed up of those of faith as well as others that will never have/place faith in Christ. These 'others' consist of unbelievers, believers in other gods, atheists or haters of God, but after they die they will find out they are God's elect ones and are already saved.

They all state the same thing you seemingly did back in post #63.. there is no 'formula' in order for man to obtain eternal life.

 

[kyredneck]

From all the PB's I have debated with and those on this board that I have specifically spoken with (as well as the materials I have read from them), believe the elect is composed up on those of faith as well as others that will never have/place faith in Christ. Some of these will be unbelievers or haters of God, but after they die they will find out they are God's elect ones and are already saved.

Paul had this to say of the Jews:

For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you, even as it is written. Ro 2:24

I am convinced that when all this is said and done and over with it will be clearly seen that the Gentiles have done absolutely no better with the tenets of the second covenant than the Jews did with the first. Just as described in Ezek 34, 'the church' has virtually driven many of the sheep away and they want nothing to do with it.

 

[Allan]

Paul had this to say of the Jews:

For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you, even as it is written. Ro 2:24

I am convinced that when all this is said and done and over with it will be clearly seen that the Gentiles have done absolutely no better with the tenets of the second covenant than the Jews did with the first. Just as described in Ezek 34, 'the church' has virtually driven many of the sheep away and they want nothing to do with it.

Ok, but this doesn't addressed either my statement regarding the PB belief concerning eternal life nor my question posed to you on the same subject:

Question:
Are there people who are saved that have never or will never believe?

ie. people who are JW's, Mormons, occulticts, Pagans, atheists, ect..through their death, never believing.
This is what all the other PB'ers on the board have stated through various debates about this very discussion.