The Calvinistic system introduces the most disingenuous invitation known to man

[canadyjd]

Yes it is a genuine offer, anything otherwise is deceitful and lie....The fact is, if ANYONE keeps the whole law he will be declared by God to be saved. It goes for anyone and everyone because it is FOR all people and is the reason all are judged becuase it.

And so, we agree.

The gospel offer can not be genuine if God has not provided the means for them to be saved through it.

God did not provide the means for anyone to be saved by keeping the Law, and yet you acknowledge that the offer to keep the law for salvation goes to all men and is a genuine offer of salvation.

You, therefore, have acknowledged the offer of salvation is distinct from God providing the means to accept the offer of salvation.

It is the same with the gospel. The offer to accept the gospel for salvation goes to all men as a genuine offer, just as the offer to keep the Law is a genuine offer. The offer of God for salvation is distinct from God providing the means to accept the offer.

The fact is this, if the offer of the salvation gospel is indeed toward or for all men then by virture to whom it is offered, provision has to have been made for that group. It is the provision which validates the offer making it not a lie to whom it is extended. It is the provision which is the good news message and that message is to all.

I understand, but disagree. It is the promise of God to grant salvation to those who accept the offer of salvation that validates the offer of salvation. That is why Holy Spirit is given to indwell those so moved as a "pledge/down payment" to the promise of God for salvation.

You are combining the provision for salvation (Christ sacrifice) with the method/means by which God has ordained that salvation to come to the elect.

The gospel is the means God has ordained to bring His chosen ones to salvation. It serves the two-fold purpose which I described earlier.

That the gospel goes out as a genuine offer is distinct from the provision made for the elect in the sacrifice of Christ.

Upon what basis is gospel offer based?

Upon what basis is the Law offered? Upon the promise of God that if you keep the Law, you will be saved. God knows no one can keep the Law without His intervention, and yet the offer is valid.

Upon what basis is the gospel offered? Upon the promise of God that if you accept Christ as Savior, you will be saved. God knows no one can come to Christ without His intervention, and yet the offer is valid.

This is not an accurate understanding of atonement, IMO. God isn't punishing anyone twice for their sin

If Christ died for their sins, then what are they being punished for? Unbelief? But unbelief is a sin. So Christ didn't die for all their sins, just all the sins except unbelief?

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

No, it is exactly the opposite. Calvinism teaches that a man comes to Jesus the Son through the Father. They teach that a man cannot possibly come to Christ unless the Father elects and then regenerates a man....But Jesus taught that it is impossible for any man to come to the Father except through him....Your doctrine is exactly the opposite of what the scriptures teach....

Jesus also taught that no one can come to Him unless the Father draws him. Let's see....

1. Person is lost
2. The Father draws that person to Jesus
3 The person comes to faith in Jesus and is now in the hands of the Father.

Doesn't the Father "drawing" someone to Jesus violate your understanding of a person coming to the Father through Jesus? Yes, I'd say it does, since the Father initiates the encounter.

In fact, I'd say your beliefs are exactly the opposite of what scripture teaches.

It is amazing, I have noticed this over and over again. I only point it out for your benefit if you will see it. :smilewinkgrin:

peace to youraying:

 

[Winman]

Jesus also taught that no one can come to Him unless the Father draws him. Let's see....

1. Person is lost
2. The Father draws that person to Jesus
3 The person comes to faith in Jesus and is now in the hands of the Father.

Doesn't the Father "drawing" someone to Jesus violate your understanding of a person coming to the Father through Jesus? Yes, I'd say it does, since the Father initiates the encounter.

In fact, I'd say your beliefs are exactly the opposite of what scripture teaches.

It is amazing, I have noticed this over and over again. I only point it out for your benefit if you will see it. :smilewinkgrin:

peace to youraying:

You don't get it. Everyone who is drawn is drawn by the word of God, and the word of God is Jesus.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

You don't get it. Jesus is the word of God. Have you ever noticed how many times Jesus said "it is written". He answered the devil every time that way.

Matt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Matt 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Matt 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

If you come to Christ, it is because you have been taught and learned from the scriptures. Without the scriptures you, nor I, nor anyone else would know of the true God and salvation through Jesus Christ.

Jesus is the Word of God.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Yes, the Father sent his Son into the world. Jesus is the word of God become flesh. But the scriptures themselves are Jesus Christ. You cannot come to Jesus unless you are taught of the word of God. Without the scriptures you would not have a clue.

You are not regenerated by the Father in able to be enabled to come to the Son. You come to the Son that you are enabled to come to the Father. Jesus knew what he was saying.

1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

 

[annsni]

Jesus also taught that no one can come to Him unless the Father draws him. Let's see....

1. Person is lost
2. The Father draws that person to Jesus
3 The person comes to faith in Jesus and is now in the hands of the Father.

Doesn't the Father "drawing" someone to Jesus violate your understanding of a person coming to the Father through Jesus? Yes, I'd say it does, since the Father initiates the encounter.

In fact, I'd say your beliefs are exactly the opposite of what scripture teaches.

It is amazing, I have noticed this over and over again. I only point it out for your benefit if you will see it. :smilewinkgrin:

peace to youraying:

HUH?? The Father draws, the person comes to Christ in saving faith. There is no "they came to the Father another way than through Jesus" because that's the exact fact. Just because the Father draws them does not mean that they come to the Father - they come to Jesus.

 

[canadyjd]

You don't get it. Everyone who is drawn is drawn by the word of God, and the word of God is Jesus.

That is not what Jesus said. Jesus said no one could come unless he were drawn by the Father. Jesus did not say a person must be drawn by the word of God, He said you must be drawn by the Father.

Your beliefs are unscriptural. You are saying the exact opposite of what scripture says. You are ignoring scripture. You are adding to scripture to make it say what you want to believe.

It is amazing, I have noticed this over and over again. I only point it out for your benefit if you will see it. :smilewinkgrin:

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

HUH?? The Father draws, the person comes to Christ in saving faith. There is no "they came to the Father another way than through Jesus" because that's the exact fact. Just because the Father draws them does not mean that they come to the Father - they come to Jesus.

According to Winman, to say the Father draws a person to Jesus, before they come to faith in Jesus, is the exact opposite of scripture, because Jesus said no one comes to the Father but through Him.

Don't you see his point? Jesus said you must come to the Father through Him. If the Father comes to you and draws you to Jesus, then that violates the scripture that says no one comes to the Father but through Jesus. Therefore, Winman changes the words of Jesus. Instead of being drawn by the Father to Jesus, you are drawn by the word of God. That way, it doesn't violate scripture (at least in Winman's mind). Isn't that clear?

Now, I don't agree with Winman, I'm just repeating what he said.

peace to youraying:

 

[annsni]

According to Winman, to say the Father draws a person to Jesus, before they come to faith in Jesus, is the exact opposite of scripture, because Jesus said no one comes to the Father but through Him.

Don't you see his point? Jesus said you must come to the Father through Him. If the Father comes to you and draws you to Jesus, then that violates the scripture that says no one comes to the Father but through Jesus. Therefore, Winman changes the words of Jesus. Instead of being drawn by the Father to Jesus, you are drawn by the word of God. That way, it doesn't violate scripture (at least in Winman's mind). Isn't that clear?

Now, I don't agree with Winman, I'm just repeating what he said.

peace to youraying:

No - But God draws people and they come to Christ. He draws them to His Son.

As for Jesus being the Scriptures, I disagree with that. He is the Word made flesh but not the Scriptures.

 

[canadyjd]

...But God draws people and they come to Christ. He draws them to His Son.

Of course He does. Scripture is very clear that He does. And the fact that He does in no way contradicts Jesus' comments that no one comes to the Father but through Him.

As for Jesus being the Scriptures, I disagree with that. He is the Word made flesh but not the Scriptures.

Again, of course you are correct.

peace to youraying:

 

[Winman]

No - But God draws people and they come to Christ. He draws them to His Son.

As for Jesus being the Scriptures, I disagree with that. He is the Word made flesh but not the Scriptures.

Well, Jesus himself showed that unless a person is taught and learned of the Father, he cannot come to him.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Now, I ask you, how did you learn about God the Father? How did you learn about Jesus? Did you have a dream or vision? Did you imagine Jesus and the gospel?

Or did you learn by the word of God?

And who is the word of God?

So who did you encounter first?

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Who does Jesus say will draw all men to him here, God the Father, or himself?

 

[canadyjd]

Who does Jesus say will draw all men to him here, God the Father, or himself?

He said both. Why ignore the one over the other?

peace to youraying: