Explain why God is patient with men if indeed men have nothing to do with being saved

[Grasshopper]

So, Grasshopper, you seem to be the only one who disagrees, but that's all we see is your disagreement with no substancial evdidences of why. You just keep hammering against others over and over. I think the "head" has fallen off.

Disagree with what??? Here is the question: Explain why God is patient with men if indeed men have nothing to do with being saved

What is there to disagree with when anyone who knows anything about Calvinism knows Calvinist DON"T BELIEVE THIS! I explained this earlier but apparently you don't read. Rippon said it best:

It would be expedient for you to know what we actually believe instead of just being a flame-thrower.

 

[Amy.G]

The Bible does not directly say so, but it tells us that the work of redemption is over (Hebrews 9:12) and so if it is, then Christ completed His task, and every elect child of God is redeemed, saved, but unregenerate because of their descendancy from Adam, and regeneration is the Holy Spirit's task, not the Son's or the Father's, and the Spirit regenerates His own apart from any means, when He wills.

"regeneration is the Holy Spirit's task, not the Son's or the Father's"


Are you saying the Holy Spirit works independently of the Father and the Son?

 

[Amy.G]

Disagree with what??? Here is the question: Explain why God is patient with men if indeed men have nothing to do with being saved

What is there to disagree with when anyone who knows anything about Calvinism knows Calvinist DON"T BELIEVE THIS!

Calvinists "don't believe" what?

Don't believe God is patient? Don't believe men have nothing to do with salvation?

I don't understand your statement.

 

[Grasshopper]

Don't believe men have nothing to do with salvation?

^
This

Are you saying the Holy Spirit works independently of the Father and the Son?

Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ's death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the Gospel.

http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/index.html

 

[Amy.G]

Grasshopper, as a Calvinist, are you saying that you believe that men do have something to do with their salvation?

 

[Amy.G]

^
Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ's death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the Gospel.[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]
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http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/index.html

That is not what Pinoy said. He said this:

"regeneration is the Holy Spirit's task, not the Son's or the Father's"

I'll wait for his response.

 

[Grasshopper]

Grasshopper, as a Calvinist, are you saying that you believe that men do have something to do with their salvation?

Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Are you saying Calvinist don't believe this?

 

[Amy.G]

Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Are you saying Calvinist don't believe this?

I'd say we all believe that. But Calvinsts say that man has nothing to do with his salvation. I'm just trying to understand what you personally believe. It seems there are as many different Calvinist beliefs as there are Calvinists. :laugh:

 

[gb93433]

Why does God continually express his patience with people with regard to their being saved IF indeed they have nothing to do with being saved? What exactly is God waiting on? Himself? Why does it say he is patient with YOU, if YOU don't do anything?
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[/FONT]What is God waiting on? Thanks.[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]
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God is not willing that any should perish. Those who try to submit God to their wishes soon find out that they have an idol and that is all any . . . . .ism does.

 

[Grasshopper]

I'd say we all believe that. But Calvinsts say that man has nothing to do with his salvation. I'm just trying to understand what you personally believe. It seems there are as many different Calvinist beliefs as there are Calvinists. :laugh:

OK, my understanding:

I could not repent nor believe the Gospel until God had made me able to do so. My natural man would never do such a thing.

 

[Amy.G]

OK, my understanding:

I could not repent nor believe the Gospel until God had made me able to do so. My natural man would never do such a thing.

Thank you. I agree, but I believe God made me able to do so, when he created me in His image.

 

[Grasshopper]

Thank you. I agree, but I believe God made me able to do so, when he created me in His image.

Of course the Calvinist would then quote:

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

and say it is nothing within you that will choose God but but an external force(God) outside of you which does the drawing. Then said Calvinist would use Lydia as an example:

Act 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

Then he would ask, "why does Lydia's heart need to be opened when she has the natural ability to do so herself"?

But we agree to disagree.:love2:

 

[Skandelon]

Grasshopper,

As I explained, I was quoting from another Calvinists on another thread and revised the question to:

What is God waiting on if indeed man has nothing to do with his being regenerated (effectually called)?

We all understand that even Calvinists believe that men must repent and believe, but if those are the effectual fruits of something God does then why is God expressing patience for you? What is he WAITING on?

The only thing He could be waiting on is Himself in your system of thinking which makes this entire concept of "divine patience" silly. This is why you all dance around the question with semantic arguments and red herrings.

 

[pinoybaptist]

"regeneration is the Holy Spirit's task, not the Son's or the Father's"


Are you saying the Holy Spirit works independently of the Father and the Son?

No, I am saying that in the work of salvation each had His own, uh, area of responsibility (for lack of a better word).
The Father chose, the Son redeemed, the Holy Spirit regenerated/s.
As Three in One, they were totally in agreement, in one accord.
The Father's choice was the eternal Son's choice and the Spirit's choice.
The mind of God was the mind of each of these three persons.
Therefore, the Son did not redeem him whom the Father did not choose, and the Holy Spirit regenerates only those whom the Father chose, and the Son redeemed, and since the election of those in Christ was done in eternity past, and redemption was finished at the cross by Christ, it is the Holy Spirit's "dispensation", if you will, in this our time, and He knows each and every one of those whom the Father chose, and sets His own time on when each and everyone is to be regenerated, independent of preacher, gospel, tracts, missions, or anything else man names as necessary to help God save those whom He already saved and redeemed.

 

[Skandelon]

Then said Calvinist would use Lydia as an example:

Act 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

Then he would ask, "why does Lydia's heart need to be opened when she has the natural ability to do so herself"?

I would want to ask that "said Calvinist," if indeed Lydia was "Totally Depraved" and had yet to be "Irresistibly drawn" then why does the scripture describe her as a one who "worshiped God" prior to her heart being opened?

 

[pinoybaptist]

I would want to ask that "said Calvinist," if indeed Lydia was "Totally Depraved" and had yet to be "Irresistibly drawn" then why does the scripture describe her as a one who "worshiped God" prior to her heart being opened?

Because at this point in time she was regenerate had already been irresistibly drawn to her God, and ready for the good news of her finished salvation.

 

[Grasshopper]

I would want to ask that "said Calvinist," if indeed Lydia was "Totally Depraved" and had yet to be "Irresistibly drawn" then why does the scripture describe her as a one who "worshiped God" prior to her heart being opened?

Many "worship God" before conversion. Many "worship God" who are never converted. The Bible is full of both. So according to you it is something within each of those individual people that makes the difference and not anything from God. Does God "open the heart" of all people?

 

[David Michael Harris]

Why does God continually express his patience with people with regard to their being saved IF indeed they have nothing to do with being saved? What exactly is God waiting on? Himself? Why does it say he is patient with YOU, if YOU don't do anything?
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[/FONT]What is God waiting on? Thanks.[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]
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It's because God waits for some sort of response.

 

[David Michael Harris]

Gee whiz, the responsibility of a pastor or evangelist. No wonder Jonah ran. What a task.

 

[Winman]

Many "worship God" before conversion. Many "worship God" who are never converted. The Bible is full of both. So according to you it is something within each of those individual people that makes the difference and not anything from God. Does God "open the heart" of all people?

But that is not the sense of the passage whatsoever. It is God's word itself that says she worshipped God.

Acts 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.

Lydia was a true worshipper of God just as Cornelius was, and that is the sense given in this passage. But you must change this to suit your doctrine. Truth is, this passage contradicts Total Depravity.

And when it says the Lord opened her heart, this is speaking of understanding the scriptures, just as when the Lord spoke to his disciples after the resurrection.

Luke 24: 32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?