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Reverence in God's house

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I have met so many people who will not go to church because of this, they can not dress up like the people in the church, and the people in the church by their dress and attitude about dress have in fact turned these people away from God instead of leading them to Him. their attitude tells people dress up or don't come.

sometimes the image we project is one of superiority over everyone outside the church, which turns them away. I've seen it over and over. Some people never come into contect with these types of people(the poor) and deny they exist, therefore they have no responsibility.
Seeing a lot of this on this board these days.

I want to ask a couple of questions here and I am NOT trying to come across as insulting or anything like that, just wanting more clarification.
First question: Are you saying that in order to reach out to people who cannot or will not dress up for church that we should also dress down to be more accomodating? Again please do not mis read this as an attack of any kind. This is actually something that I have been thinking about. I personally feel that we should dress better for church than we would for regular activities, however since I started working with the youth group in our church I have come to realize that if I were to even unintentionally give the impression that they had to dress up to come most would not. I had to reassess my views on things. Most of the time I am excited if the kids are wearing clean clothes. That is not meant to sound insulting to the kids that I work with but when I see the kids clothes are clean then I know that mom or whoever their guardian is has actually interacted in the kids lives for that day which is a rarity.

Second question: If as a church we decide to alter our personal dress standards to accomadate those who cannot or will not dress up then do we run the risk of getting on a slippery slope of becoming to accomodating? We all know that the secular society would love to see the church become just like them. A church that is identical to the world means a church that is not letting it light shine into society around it. While I do believe that within reason dress standards are one area that we can afford to compromise on I strongly believe that we as the church need to be extremely cautious about compromise in general. Yes if we compromise on various issues we will see more people come to our services but at what cost? If we compromise to far now we have all these people but we cannot preach effectively because in order to get them we have compromised our message right out the door. Again none of this is meant to be insulting or mean spirited just my thoughts and .02 cents totally free of charge
 

JMSR

New Member
Modesty is the key and it applies every day, not just at church. We have people that faithfully attend at the barn that would never set foot in 1st Baptist. If dressing down is compromise I'm guilty. I wear my work clothes every day. I have very few "dress up" clothes. If I'm working on the truck or tractor or something I can wash up and step into church. My nephew might put his horse up and come right into church. Run the rooster out and lets get started. No one cares because we're all there for the same reason: to hear the gospel and worship the Lord. Whether or not I've got a little grease on my pants is irrelevant to the message.
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I want to ask a couple of questions here and I am NOT trying to come across as insulting or anything like that, just wanting more clarification.
First question: Are you saying that in order to reach out to people who cannot or will not dress up for church that we should also dress down to be more accomodating? Again please do not mis read this as an attack of any kind. This is actually something that I have been thinking about. I personally feel that we should dress better for church than we would for regular activities, however since I started working with the youth group in our church I have come to realize that if I were to even unintentionally give the impression that they had to dress up to come most would not. I had to reassess my views on things. Most of the time I am excited if the kids are wearing clean clothes. That is not meant to sound insulting to the kids that I work with but when I see the kids clothes are clean then I know that mom or whoever their guardian is has actually interacted in the kids lives for that day which is a rarity.

Second question: If as a church we decide to alter our personal dress standards to accomadate those who cannot or will not dress up then do we run the risk of getting on a slippery slope of becoming to accomodating? We all know that the secular society would love to see the church become just like them. A church that is identical to the world means a church that is not letting it light shine into society around it. While I do believe that within reason dress standards are one area that we can afford to compromise on I strongly believe that we as the church need to be extremely cautious about compromise in general. Yes if we compromise on various issues we will see more people come to our services but at what cost? If we compromise to far now we have all these people but we cannot preach effectively because in order to get them we have compromised our message right out the door. Again none of this is meant to be insulting or mean spirited just my thoughts and .02 cents totally free of charge

I was reading 1 Corinthians yesterday with my husband in a study on our new church plant and we read this passage from chapter 9:

19For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. 21To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. 23I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.

Sometimes we DO change what we do in non-essentials to reach those who would not otherwise be reached. If dressing to the 9s means that there will be youth or others who will be uncomfortable, what is it to change to a nice button-down shirt and a pair of khakis instead of a suit to show that you're not "above" them? How do you think someone would feel if they walked into a church in a nice pair of jeans and a t-shirt and they looked around and everyone looked like they were going to attend a wedding? God isn't impressed with the outside of us - Scripture is FULL of words to that matter (God looks on the heart while man looks outside, a woman should have her beauty come from good works and not fancy clothing, the richly dressed person and the bum coming to worship, etc.) but He wants a heart that is turned towards Him. We can do that in 3 piece suits and ugly jumpers or we can do that in jeans and a sweatshirt. The question is honestly what is your culture in your church, and who are we trying to draw to Christ? We never compromise the Gospel and we teach the Word of God clearly but if we are to reach others for Christ, we sometimes need to step out of ourselves to be able to share a blessing.
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Modesty is the key and it applies every day, not just at church. We have people that faithfully attend at the barn that would never set foot in 1st Baptist. If dressing down is compromise I'm guilty. I wear my work clothes every day. I have very few "dress up" clothes. If I'm working on the truck or tractor or something I can wash up and step into church. My nephew might put his horse up and come right into church. Run the rooster out and lets get started. No one cares because we're all there for the same reason: to hear the gospel and worship the Lord. Whether or not I've got a little grease on my pants is irrelevant to the message.

I hate to think of how many times I went to church with hay in my hair or on the back of my jacket and I'm SURE I've smelled a bit horsey too. :)
 

Johnv

New Member
The bottom line here, folks, is that scripture calls for modest apparel. What this thread demonstrates is that some equate "modest" with "formal" and in doing so, incorrectly conclude that "informal" means "immodest". This is a false presumption that must be abandoned. Conversely, there are some that equate "formal" with "pretentious". This, too, must be done away with. There's nothing in scripture that is contrary to "come as you are". So, if you're informal, then come informal. But that must also mean that, if you are formal, then come formal.

How, then, are we to choose how to dress? Assuming modesty is not an issue, the best rule of thumb is to see how others are dressing, and dress accordingly. If you attend a church where wearing a tie or dress is the norm, then you should probably dress similarly, so as not to draw attention to yourself. If you attend a church where most people wear jeans and a polo shirt, then you should do likewise, so as not to bring attention to yourself. If you attend a church where people dress all over the spectrum, then dress as you see fit, within that spectrum. Again, this is a very general rule of thumb, not gospel. But it probably addresses most issues with what is appropriate attire for one's particular church setting.

All that said, the most important thing to accept is that we're not equipped to judge how another church dresses. If your church dresses formally, and the church down the street dresses informally, you have no scriptural authority to think yourself better or more righteous then they. Likewise, if you dress informally, and the church down the street dresses formally, you have no authority to think them self-righteous just because they dress up. Judging in such a manner violates scripture.
 
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I was reading 1 Corinthians yesterday with my husband in a study on our new church plant and we read this passage from chapter 9:

19For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. 21To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. 23I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.

Sometimes we DO change what we do in non-essentials to reach those who would not otherwise be reached. If dressing to the 9s means that there will be youth or others who will be uncomfortable, what is it to change to a nice button-down shirt and a pair of khakis instead of a suit to show that you're not "above" them? How do you think someone would feel if they walked into a church in a nice pair of jeans and a t-shirt and they looked around and everyone looked like they were going to attend a wedding? God isn't impressed with the outside of us - Scripture is FULL of words to that matter (God looks on the heart while man looks outside, a woman should have her beauty come from good works and not fancy clothing, the richly dressed person and the bum coming to worship, etc.) but He wants a heart that is turned towards Him. We can do that in 3 piece suits and ugly jumpers or we can do that in jeans and a sweatshirt. The question is honestly what is your culture in your church, and who are we trying to draw to Christ? We never compromise the Gospel and we teach the Word of God clearly but if we are to reach others for Christ, we sometimes need to step out of ourselves to be able to share a blessing.

I didn't really want to quote this whole comment but I guess my technical illiteracy is starting to show. Anyway, I absolutely agree with you when you say that we can change what we do in non-essentials. I never told my youth that they had to dress up to come to church, however one Sunday a.m. I was coming into the classroom and I over heard two of the young men talking about how they didn't feel like they fit in because of their clothes. I realized that they were seeing what you mention in your comments and I was instantly convicted. Once again, I had never not even once said anything to this effect but that was the impression that they were getting. I changed the whole lesson for that morning and we had a study on how God accepts us as we are and where we are the only requirement is a repentant heart. Due to my job as a bank teller there are times when I will still show up on Wednesday night in a shirt and tie because I have come straight from work but I REFUSE to allow something like dress standards to keep even one of my youth from coming to church. Now when I "dress up" for church it is a button up shirt and either khakis or nice jeans. I refuse to be a stumblingblock. My biggest concern is in the area of compromise in general. Not wearing a tie, no big deal.. not preaching against sin or that God expects us to live a Godly life.. very big deal. An example of that is again drawn from my youth group. One Sunday a.m. one of my young ladies expressed that she did not like to hear that we are accountable to God for our decisions and our lifestyle and she asked if I could stop teaching about that. Obviously I responded that no I could not and we began our lesson on sanctification that morning. My point is, I believe that too often well intentioned church members get caught up on things that are truly not important. Please don't misunderstand, I am not saying that I believe it is okay to dress immodestly for church (we should avoid that everywhere as it is), but if we are hindering people from coming and hearing the Gospel because we insist on a dress standard that is tripping people up I believe we are wrong. Modesty is one thing and I have asked my wife to counsel some of the young ladies in our youth about what they have worn. Then my wife has taken them out and bought them nice modest clothes that they can wear instead (makes them feel special and there is no longer the excuse that they don't have anything else, its your classic 2 for 1). This has gone alot longer than I intended but I really feel that as the Body of Christ we get too caught up on things that are not what we should be focusing on. Things like, what people wear to church, what kind of Bible they use, what kind of music they are listening to and what ends up getting squeezed out is the simple message that God loves people, sent His Son to take our place on the cross and died for us so we could have a right relationship with HIM and He could make us who He wants us to be. The funny thing is that when I first came out of Bible college I felt that all those things I listed dress, Bible version, and music styles were hills worth dying on. Then God put me in a Youth Pastor position where I realized quickly that there were things far more important. Those things are important but they do not trump bringing people to where they can hear the Gospel.
 

abcgrad94

Active Member
Good post, Johnv, except I'd like to add one thing. The real "bottom line" is that "God's house" is NOT the church building. He dwells inside us, not in a building, so reverence is not something we can take off or put on like clothing. It's our heart attitude that counts in God's presence, not our outward appearance.
 

donnA

Active Member
I want to ask a couple of questions here and I am NOT trying to come across as insulting or anything like that, just wanting more clarification.
Thansk you
Are you saying that in order to reach out to people who cannot or will not dress up for church that we should also dress down to be more accomodating?
No, I am saying we should not walk around with an attitude that we're better then they are like we're reverecning God and they are not. Our sttitude proves we are not.
give the impression that they had to dress up to come most would not[ /quote]this would be part of what I mean. Whats more important, dressing up and looking fancy, or getting these kids in church, it sound sliek you have a lo of kids whose families are not in church, therefore not encouraged at home, or taught about God at home, make sit our job if their parents negelect it. if dressing up drives them away we're responsiable.

If as a church we decide to alter our personal dress standards to accomadate those who cannot or will not dress up then do we run the risk of getting on a slippery slope of becoming to accomodating?
Hopefully my first answer helps cover this.
it depends on what accomations, it also depends on the people in the area our 'church' ministers in, for instance, I think it's Ann, whose church is in a more wealthy area (not rich I guess, just not poor) this may not apply to them, I don't know.
We all know that the secular society would love to see the church become just like them.A church that is identical to the world means a church that is not letting it light shine into society around it
They wear clothes,w e wear clothes. I never said we had to wear what the world wears. The world approves of and wears some pretty bad stuff, nearly naked is publically acceptable. I did not endorse this in a 'church' building or by christians at all. If we are modestly covered, we are not the world. One can wear a dress all dressed up, or suit and tie of course, and still not reverence God, still be of the world. I do notice peopel in the world do wear dresses and suit and ties. So if we dress up we're still looking outwardly like the world. All the while ignoring the inward.
Yes if we compromise on various issues
it isn't compromise , scripture does not says we can only wear fancy dress up clothes to 'church', thus purposely eliminating some from the worship service by telling them if they don't look like us they aren't reverencing God. Scripture does warn against playing favoritism of those who do dress well while others can not. And thats exactly what this thread is about.
we have compromised our message
never suggested the message of the gospel be compromised.

Modesty is the key and it applies every day, not just at church. We have people that faithfully attend at the barn that would never set foot in 1st Baptist. If dressing down is compromise I'm guilty. I wear my work clothes every day. I have very few "dress up" clothes. If I'm working on the truck or tractor or something I can wash up and step into church. My nephew might put his horse up and come right into church. Run the rooster out and lets get started. No one cares because we're all there for the same reason: to hear the gospel and worship the Lord. Whether or not I've got a little grease on my pants is irrelevant to the message.
To hear some on this board tell it, your church does not reverence God and your full of compromise.
But I think it sounds alright, God honoring God worshiping.

Sometimes we DO change what we do in non-essentials to reach those who would not otherwise be reached. If dressing to the 9s means that there will be youth or others who will be uncomfortable, what is it to change to a nice button-down shirt and a pair of khakis instead of a suit to show that you're not "above" them? How do you think someone would feel if they walked into a church in a nice pair of jeans and a t-shirt and they looked around and everyone looked like they were going to attend a wedding? God isn't impressed with the outside of us - Scripture is FULL of words to that matter (God looks on the heart while man looks outside, a woman should have her beauty come from good works and not fancy clothing, the richly dressed person and the bum coming to worship, etc.) but He wants a heart that is turned towards Him. We can do that in 3 piece suits and ugly jumpers or we can do that in jeans and a sweatshirt. The question is honestly what is your culture in your church, and who are we trying to draw to Christ? We never compromise the Gospel and we teach the Word of God clearly but if we are to reach others for Christ, we sometimes need to step out of ourselves to be able to share a blessing.
good post Ann.
I wonder how many cheanges of clothes Paul had and if he changed and dressed up oer and above his normal before preaching?

The bottom line here, folks, is that scripture calls for modest apparel. What this thread demonstrates is that some equate "modest" with "formal" and in doing so, incorrectly conclude that "informal" means "immodest".
 
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donnA

Active Member
Good post, Johnv, except I'd like to add one thing. The real "bottom line" is that "God's house" is NOT the church building. He dwells inside us, not in a building, so reverence is not something we can take off or put on like clothing. It's our heart attitude that counts in God's presence, not our outward appearance.
Our pastor has been preaching on this, the building is not the church, we are, some have a hard time understanding this concept.
 

donnA

Active Member
This is not true.
Really? What makes you think so? I've many times, and my aunt wa sone of them, who owned a pair of flip flops, and put on a pair of socks to wear with them, yes it can apparently be done.
I've seen it all too many times, and yet you find it necessary to call me a liar. Your reply is the lie.


We have no reason to doubt Donna's word about this. I've seen this many times myself in the church building even. If you have not had this misfortune, then good for you, but it doesn't make Donna a liar.
When we have an attitude of respect and reverence towards God, it will show in how we treat others. I find it interesting that some of the people who preach "reverence in God's house" cannot even be respectful and kind to their fellow man.
Thank you.
It is a common site here. And usally people like this will not go to church, and churches have by their attitude, like on this board, told them church was for the rich, and they did not qualify.
 
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donnA

Active Member
Start a clothes closet. We have a Harley rider get saved a few months ago. I didn't know he'd been to ours. One Sunday afternoon I came up to him and asked if he rode his "hawg"? Yes. I then asked did he get many strange looks? Yes, but he wanted people to know where he was going! Said God is putting his marriage back together, but she won't come to church until he gets a car, so I asked why? She won't ride his bike in a dress. So he gets a car, with our help, she came a few times then missed a couple weeks. She comes back and gets gloriously saved. The car broke down and she rode on the back of the hawg until it got fixed. Both of these precious people were meth addicts 6 months ago. God is good!
Good story, thanks.
I ahve no where to start a clothes closet, or I would. I know of a ministry with a local man from our church, looking to start a branch here, it will include clothes, food, and household items for burn out victims. I've already volunteered if he can get it started here. He says he needs to find storage to have a place to run the ministry from.
 

paul wassona

New Member
2 Corinthians 6:16
(16) And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will dwell in them And walk among them. I will be their God, And they shall be My people."

1 Corinthians 6:19
(19) Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

1 Corinthians 3:16-17
(16) Do you not know that you are .....
Why is it you say this and it seems you want the inside like the Temple but you want the outside like the Tabernacle covered with badger's skins??? Wasn't Jesus' point that if the inside is clean, and needs be 1st, soon the outside will be too?
 

MB

Well-Known Member
I've heard this statement and have read it many times here on the board. Why do some Christians believe we must be formal and "reverent" in the church building? What constitutes reverence or respect and what constitutes casual?

The Bible tells us that God does not have a house made with hands, he resides in us. So why is it "reverent" to dress one way in a church building and another way at home when God is with us at both places?

You're right He does live in us and the gathering place isn't holy as the temple was in the OT. There seems to be a lot of little things like this. After all some gather in there homes but that doesn't mean there homes are holy. The church is holy in that it is the body of Christ. It's members are wearing the righteousness of Christ which makes them holy.

How people dress is important. It reflects who we are in Christ. Modesty should always be the only option.
MB
 

Tom Bryant

Well-Known Member
How people dress is important. It reflects who we are in Christ. Modesty should always be the only option.

Where is it said that if you don't dress up, you are dressing immodestly? All of us would condemn immodesty in church and everywhere else.
 

tinytim

<img src =/tim2.jpg>
Ok.. I hate to throw another cog into the discussion... but what are we to do with this verse....

Psalms 96:9 NASB
(9) Worship the LORD in holy attire;
Tremble before Him, all the earth.

Just askin!.. .I found it today as I was doing sermon prep.. and as far as I can tell, only the NASB translates it that way... BUT since the NASB is not a heretical Bible.. .and many, many of our church people use it, when they read this verse....and ask you about it...

HOW will you explain it to them?

**edited to add the ASV has it as "holy array"...
 
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dcorbett

Active Member
Site Supporter
Bro TIm, what does the KJV say? I just got up, and I am still foggy from working all night.
 

tinytim

<img src =/tim2.jpg>
Here is the KJV..
Psalms 96:9
(9) O worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness: fear before him, all the earth.
 

tinytim

<img src =/tim2.jpg>
Here is the KJV..
Psalms 96:9
(9) O worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness: fear before him, all the earth.

The NET Bible has this..
NET Bible® - Psalms 9696:9 Worship the Lord in holy attire!10
Tremble before him, all the earth!

And the translator's notes are as follows:
"10tn Or “in holy splendor.”

Apparently the Hebrew here can be read either way.

Adam Clarke's Commentary says this...
Psa 96:9
Worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness - I think בהדרת קדש behadrath kodesh, signifies holy ornaments, such as the high priest wore in his ministrations. These were given him for glory and beauty; and the psalmist calls on him to put on his sacerdotal garments, to bring his offering, מנחה minchah, and come into the courts of the Lord, and perform his functions, and make intercession for the people.

Believers Bible Commentary has this...
96:7-9 If we really appreciate the greatness and goodness of the LORD, we will want others to magnify His name too. Thus the psalmist calls on the families of the peoples to join in telling the LORD how majestic and stately and mighty He is. They should ascribe to Him the glory that is due His name. They should bring an offering to lay at His feet. They should worship Him in the beauty of holiness, or in holy garments (NASB). All the world should pay Him obeisance.
The mention of holy garments reminds us that even the clothes we wear when we worship the Lord should be appropriate to the occasion. While it may be true that reverence is primarily a matter of the heart, it is also true that we can express our reverence by our attire. Slovenly clothes at the communion service, for instance, betray a casualness that is seldom seen at weddings or funerals.

The footnotes at the bottom of the NASB has..
[3] Psa_96:9 Or the splendor of holiness

John Wesley says...
Psa 96:9 Beauty - Cloathed with all the gifts and graces, which are necessary in God's worship.
 

Aaron

Member
Site Supporter
Really? What makes you think so? I've many times, and my aunt wa sone of them, who owned a pair of flip flops, and put on a pair of socks to wear with them, yes it can apparently be done.
I've seen it all too many times, and yet you find it necessary to call me a liar. Your reply is the lie.
I don't believe for one minute that you are aware of churches that require those who cannot afford means of warmth to have such to attend church. I believe you are overstating the problem in order to support your view.
 

Aaron

Member
Site Supporter
Ok.. I hate to throw another cog into the discussion... but what are we to do with this verse....

Psalms 96:9 NASB
(9) Worship the LORD in holy attire;
Tremble before Him, all the earth.

Just askin!.. .I found it today as I was doing sermon prep.. and as far as I can tell, only the NASB translates it that way... BUT since the NASB is not a heretical Bible.. .and many, many of our church people use it, when they read this verse....and ask you about it...

HOW will you explain it to them?

**edited to add the ASV has it as "holy array"...
It's to be taken the same way the admonitions to worship with instruments, incense and sacrifice are to be taken, according to its spiritual significance.
 
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