What validates the offer of salvation?

[canadyjd]

Jesus was not offering this young man salvation through works......This young man undoubtably falsely believed he could earn his way to heaven through keeping the law, and that is why Jesus said "thou knowest the commandments". But it was not a promise.

You are ignoring the rest of what Jesus said, "if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."

That is a conditional statement based on the promise of God to grant salvation to those who keep the commandments.

If Jesus had said "if you can flap your arms fast enough you can fly to heaven", would that be a promise? No

..... It would be a promise if it were true that you could get to heaven if you flapped your arms fast enough.

I believe it is true that if a person can keep the whole law perfectly, they would go to heaven. I don't believe anyone can, but if they could.....

Do you deny that if a person could keep the whole law, they would go to heaven? I am not asking you if anyone can keep the law. We both agree that no one can.

I am asking if you agree that if a person could have kept the whole law perfectly, they would go to heaven?

If that is true, then what Jesus told the man was an offer of salvation. It was also an offer that no one has the ability to accept without the intervention of God.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

You're both right.

Well, I believe I might be wrong and he may be right.... or, I may be right and he may be wrong... or, we might both be wrong... but I don't believe we are both right.

peace to youraying:

 

[webdog]

You are ignoring the rest of what Jesus said, "if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."

That is a conditional statement based on the promise of God to grant salvation to those who keep the commandments...... It would be a promise if it were true that you could get to heaven if you flapped your arms fast enough.

I believe it is true that if a person can keep the whole law perfectly, they would go to heaven. I don't believe anyone can, but if they could.....

Do you deny that if a person could keep the whole law, they would go to heaven? I am not asking you if anyone can keep the law. We both agree that no one can.

I am asking if you agree that if a person could have kept the whole law perfectly, they would go to heaven?

If that is true, then what Jesus told the man was an offer of salvation. It was also an offer that no one has the ability to accept without the intervention of God.

peace to youraying:

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

 

[canadyjd]

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

The Apostle Paul is not answering the question of whether the Law was a genuine offer of salvation.

Paul is speaking of the reality that no one was ever justified by keeping the law, because no one was able to keep the law. Therefore, the need for faith in Christ.

Now, I'll ask you again. Please answer directly. Do you believe that if a person could keep the whole law, they will have eternal life?

I am not asking if anyone is able. We both agree that no one is able and that salvation is only through faith in Jesus Christ.

I am asking "if" anyone could keep the whole law, would they have eternal life.

If that is true, and it is, then the statement by Jesus to the man "if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments" is an offer of salvation which the man has no ability to accept.

It is a genuine offer, based on the promise of God to grant salvation to all who keep the law and is distinct from the ability to accept the offer.

peace to youraying:

 

[webdog]

Now, I'll ask you again. Please answer directly. Do you believe that if a person could keep the whole law, they will have eternal life?

I've already answered it, and it's NO. The ONLY means of eternal life is THROUGH FAITH in Christ. If your answer is yes, you are espousing a works salvation, which is a false gospel.

 

[Rippon]

I believe Salvation is offered to everyone by the drawing and everyone is drawn, according to Jn 12:32. Some may never hear the gospel because they rebeled against the drawing.

Wait a minute. If you think literally everyone is drawn, then literally everyone will hear the Gospel. How can one be drawn without the Gospel?

And please don't confuse the drawing with general revelation as explained in Romans 1 and 2.

You really need to read John 6 to get a grip on the doctrine of drawing.

 

[webdog]

Wait a minute. If you think literally everyone is drawn, then literally everyone will hear the Gospel. How can one be drawn without the Gospel?

And please don't confuse the drawing with general revelation as explained in Romans 1 and 2.

You really need to read John 6 to get a grip on the doctrine of drawing.

Acts 17:26-27

 

[canadyjd]

I've already answered it, and it's NO. The ONLY means of eternal life is THROUGH FAITH in Christ. If your answer is yes, you are espousing a works salvation, which is a false gospel.

Are you saying Jesus deceived the man when He said, "if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments"?

I have repeatedly stated the fact there is no way to work your way into heaven. The only way to heaven is through faith in Jesus Christ.

That doesn't change the fact that keeping the law is an "OFFER" of salvation that no one has the ability to keep.

peace to youraying:

 

[Rippon]

Acts 17:26-27

That passage has nothing to do with the doctrine of drawing.

 

[webdog]

Are you saying Jesus deceived the man when He said, "if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments"?

No, I'm saying you are deceived in your understanding of Jesus' words.

I have repeatedly stated the fact there is no way to work your way into heaven. The only way to heaven is through faith in Jesus Christ.

...which completely and totally contradicts your understanding of what Jesus said.

That doesn't change the fact that keeping the law is an "OFFER" of salvation that no one has the ability to keep.

Sure it does. Your understanding of Jesus' invalidates the offer itself. I can offer you a million dollars, but if I cannot give it to you because I have already decreed you will not get it that way, it is not a true offer, hence non offer.

 

[webdog]

That passage has nothing to do with the doctrine of drawing.

I wouldn't expect you to say anything differently.

 

[OldRegular]

I've already answered it, and it's NO. The ONLY means of eternal life is THROUGH FAITH in Christ. If your answer is yes, you are espousing a works salvation, which is a false gospel.

Webdog

This may be the first time you and I have agreed on a doctrinal question. If it were possible for anyone to have been saved by keeping the law then the death of Jesus Christ would not have been necessary.

This does not mean that I believe anyone, other than Jesus Christ, was capable of keeping the law.

 

[Rippon]

I wouldn't expect you to say anything differently.

I wonder if you are alone in your opinion that Acts 17:26,27 is dealing with the doctrine of the drawing of the Lord. Off-hand I don't even know any famous non-Cals who would suggest such a thing. But if you can dig up something that agrees with your assertion -- that would be interesting. It wouldn't prove that Acts 17:26,27 has anything to do with biblical drawing -- but at least you wouldn't stand alone with your novel view.

 

[webdog]

I wonder if you are alone in your opinion that Acts 17:26,27 is dealing with the doctrine of the drawing of the Lord. Off-hand I don't even know any famous non-Cals who would suggest such a thing. But if you can dig up something that agrees with your assertion -- that would be interesting. It wouldn't prove that Acts 17:26,27 has anything to do with biblical drawing -- but at least you wouldn't stand alone with your novel view.

I find it rather odd you would refuse to believe God placing man in the precise location, place and time in history so that man would "perhaps" reach out for Him and find Him can be anything but God drawing man to himself. That is something a child can understand.
If you need the further support of men over Scripture...do your own research.

 

[canadyjd]

Webdog

This may be the first time you and I have agreed on a doctrinal question. If it were possible for anyone to have been saved by keeping the law then the death of Jesus Christ would not have been necessary.

This does not mean that I believe anyone, other than Jesus Christ, was capable of keeping the law.

OR, I understand no one is able. I understand it is not possible to keep the Law (in our fallen state). I haven't disputed that at all.

The contention is whether the keeping of the law was an offer of salvation from God to His people. When Jesus told the man "if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments", was He telling the truth?

I know Jesus was attempting to make him realize he couldn't/hadn't kept the law, of his own sin, of his need for a savior... but was Jesus telling the truth about entering into (eternal) life, if he kept the commandments? I believe He was.

Now, if Webdog is right, Jesus wasn't telling the truth to the man. Jesus was, in fact, giving the man a false hope of salvation (by telling him he could enter into life by keeping the law) if, in fact, he couldn't enter into eternal life if he kept the law. The other motivations of Jesus that have been cited (trying to get him to see he couldn't keep the law, or recognize his sin and need for a savior) would be a manipulation of the truth.

So, the offer of salvation is distinct from the ability to accept it, because it is based on God's promise to grant salvation.

peace to youraying:

 

[Rippon]

I find it rather odd you would refuse to believe God placing man in the precise location, place and time in history so that man would "perhaps" reach out for Him and find Him can be anything but God drawing man to himself.

That passage in Acts has nothing to do with the biblical doctrine of drawing.

If you need the further support of men over Scripture...do your own research.

That's what I thought. You have a stand-alone view -- no one is in your one-man club.

 

[webdog]

That passage in Acts has nothing to do with the biblical doctrine of drawing.

Like I said...you're blind to it.

That's what I thought. You have a stand-alone view -- no one is in your one-man club.

Well, I know of at least one other...Paul.

 

[Rippon]

Like I said...you're blind to it.

And you are the great enlightened one?

Well, I know of at least one other...Paul.

Paul isn't dealing with the biblical doctrine of drawing in Acts 17.

It's strange. You deny the import of Paul's Romans chapter 5. You say it doesn't have anything to do with the doctrine of Original Sin. Yet it so clearly does. Then you try and stuff Acts 17 into the doctrine of biblical drawing. Strange. Paul disagrees with you on both counts.

 

[RAdam]

If the law was an offer of salvation, then Paul assertion that the purpose of the law was to be our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ was wrong. The purpose of the law was never for God's people to be saved by their keeping of it. By the law is the knowledge of sin. The law was given to shine a light on man's sinfullness and convince man of his need for a savior.

 

[webdog]

And you are the great enlightened one?

No...you are the great blind one.

Paul isn't dealing with the biblical doctrine of drawing in Acts 17.

According to your blindness.

It's strange. You deny the import of Paul's Romans chapter 5. You say it doesn't have anything to do with the doctrine of Original Sin. Yet it so clearly does. Then you try and stuff Acts 17 into the doctrine of biblical drawing. Strange. Paul disagrees with you on both counts.

I've discussed Romans 5 - 7 with you in the past, I do not care to waste my time doing that with you again.

"When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,"