Is spiritual death from birth, or is it produced in time?

[Skandelon]

I realize you are familiar with Calvinism and that's good. I also realize you hate it and you are doing everything you can to prove it wrong. Lastly, I think you are over analyzing it to the point that you are beginning to misrepresent it which is not hard to do. It seems that in the past few weeks you have moved more and more closer to hyper Calvinism. That's just my opinion :thumbs:

Actually, I don't hate it or anyone who holds to it. I'm just one who used to believe it so I have a bit more passion for those to see another perspective. Some of the exaggerated arguments I've made more recently are in response to a couple of the people who keep saying the same thing over and over and never actually deal with my arguments.

Additionally, what you think of as "hyper" some Calvinist consider to be orthodox. Some are hard determinists and others take a more compatibilistic path and so some of my responses may be in reflection of a discussion with a person who is closer to what you would label "hyper."

There are a few points I wanted to make in regards to your statement:

1. People can and do get more hardened with rebellion against any revealed truth that is rejected. This is true and I don't deny it. In fact Jesus tells us that there is a level of hardening that there is no return. Although the apostle Paul seemed to reach that level and was converted in spite of that fact.

No return? I don't understand language that from a Calvinist. If you non-elect you are born in a state of "no return," aren't you?

2. People are dead in sin. People are born with a sin nature and are by natures sinners as you know. Ephesians 2:1-3. I realize when you read a passage 1,000 times you become hardened to it and it is easy to shew off. John 3:16 is a good example for me, it is easy to just yawn and move on.

"And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest."

Again, if you read my post, I don't deny that sin does give birth to death...or that is will produce death. This passage doesn't contradict that. Its just Paul addressing those who have reached that point in their lives. But even so, there is nothing in scripture that indicates that God's life giving message of reconciliation cannot be willingly received. The very question, "How can they believe unless they hear?" suggests that they can believe if they do hear.

Titus 3:3 "For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another."

Again, I affirm all of this. But it says nothing about man's inability to repent and believe once confronted by God's powerful truth.

3. I think you are right that children are less hardened and maybe not hardened at all.

If that is the case then what are they capable of doing if not hardened? Read Acts 28 and it will tell you. "Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them."

The problem is that they are sinners and guilty because of Adam. After all infants die in the womb, why? didn't death come through sin? I do think God does put a special protection around infants and young children until they can understand. The problem is that I see that many times when they really begin to understand that they love the darkness. So I would say hardening is something that many, if not all of us have experienced. I personally have no doubt that I was an ignorant fool who hated Christ and lived in total sin for most of my life and I was in a deep hole I couldn't get myself out of, nor did I care to.

Again, I affirm the doctrine of Original Sin. We are born sinners...we just aren't born hardened and thus we are able to see, hear, understand and believe. Additionally, we are not being Judicially blinded by God temporarily as were the Jews of this day...a point often ignored on this forum.

 

[Marcia]

I don't think anyone is arguing that Paul with "without sin before the law came," but that he did not die until after his sin and continual rebellion as the passages seem to suggest in the OP, you know, the passages you all seem to overlook?

So man is not born in rebellion to God? Man is not born with a sin nature?

 

[Marcia]

But that is the very point. Without law no sin is imputed.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

This verse is not saying that no sin is imputed without the law. Otherwise, that would contradict Romans chapters 1-3, which is showing that everyone is accountable to God for their sin, with or without the law.

But the law also recognizes that a person has to have a concept of the law before they can be held accountable. This is why we do not prosecute small children, the mentally handicapped, or the truly insane. God is no different. Yes, little children often do what is sinful. They can be selfish, they sometimes lie, they get mad and fight with their siblings. But they do not understand sin and God's punishment for sin. Only when they reach a certain age of maturity is sin imputed or counted against them.

That little children are sinless in God's eyes is shown.

Matt 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Matt. 19:14 is not telling us that children are sinless! The passage, and the rest of the NT, is telling us to trust like children.

 

[Skandelon]

So man is not born in rebellion to God? Man is not born with a sin nature?

Full hardened rebellion? I don't think so. With a sin nature? Yes.

Adam and Eve, after they sinned, did they still talk to God and relate to Him? Sure. What were the affects of the Fall? What was the curse of the Fall?

Labor Pains
Working the Ground
Knowing both good and evil
etc

Was there anything mentioned there about not being able to respond to God's messages of reconciliation?

 

[canadyjd]

But that is not what the scriptures teach. The scriptures do not teach that we are enslaved to sin and compelled or forced by our natures to sin. They teach the opposite....As I asked before, show me scripture that says man is compelled or forced to sin by his nature

John 8:34 "Jesus answered them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin....'"

Romans 7:20 "But if I am doing the very thing I do not wish, I am no longer doing it, but sin which dwells in me. (21) I find then the principle that evil is present in me..."

You keep claiming scriptures teach "the opposite" of (insert hated reformed belief here), when you can easily shown to be wrong.

At some point, most people would be embarrassed to keep making such claims.

Nevertheless

peace to youraying:

 

[Marcia]

Full hardened rebellion? I don't think so. With a sin nature? Yes.

Adam and Eve, after they sinned, did they still talk to God and relate to Him? Sure. What were the affects of the Fall? What was the curse of the Fall?

Labor Pains
Working the Ground
Knowing both good and evil
etc

And death (Romans 5). And being cast out of the Garden; this was a break with the intimacy they had with God. Yes, they talked to God but it was a pretty unpleasant conversation, with the gospel couched in 3:15.

Was there anything mentioned there about not being able to respond to God's messages of reconciliation?

Why do you ask this? I never said no one was unable to respond.

 

[Winman]

John 8:34 "Jesus answered them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin....'"

Romans 7:20 "But if I am doing the very thing I do not wish, I am no longer doing it, but sin which dwells in me. (21) I find then the principle that evil is present in me..."

You keep claiming scriptures teach "the opposite" of (insert hated reformed belief here), when you can easily shown to be wrong.

At some point, most people would be embarrassed to keep making such claims.

Nevertheless

peace to youraying:

Those verses do not teach that a man is enslaved or compelled to sin, read them again.

Jesus says whoever "commits sin" is the servant of sin. He did not say we are enslaved to commit sin. Huge difference, you reverse the order. It is the committing sin that makes you the servant.

Same with Rom 7.

Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Paul is not teaching that he is utterly enslaved or compelled to sin, he says "if" I sin.

You read into scripture what is not there.

 

[canadyjd]

Those verses do not teach that a man is enslaved or compelled to sin, read them again.

Jesus says whoever "commits sin" is the servant of sin. He did not say we are enslaved to commit sin. Huge difference, you reverse the order. It is the committing sin that makes you the servant.

The word is "doulos" and it means "slave". The "Truth" sets you "free" from your slavery to sin. Plain and simple if you will accept it.

Same with Rom 7.

Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Paul is not teaching that he is utterly enslaved or compelled to sin, he says "if" I sin.

Paul had just stated that he is doing the things that he doesn't want to do. Romans 7:15-16 "....For I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing that I hate...."

There is no "if" there.

Paul is speaking of a person's life prior to salvation. That person's life is enslaved to sin. That is his point.

peace to youraying:

 

[RAdam]

In that section of scripture from Romans 7, Paul is speaking of the spiritual warfare that exists in all regenerated children of God. Paul says he has an inward man (which he elsewhere calls the new man) which is the new nature given him at regeneration. He says he delights in the law of God after this inward man. But, he says he also has a sin nature, which he refers to here as another law and sin that dwelleth in me (elsewhere as the outward or old man). He says this nature wars against the inward man, seeking to bring him into captivity again to sin. Thus he says he both wants to do things pleasing to God, and is still subject to temptation to sin. This is because the inward man wants to please God, the outward man wants to sin, and the two sides war. We've all felt this, when we want to do good but we find ourselves at times doing things that shame us and displease God. Paul, at the end of the rope, laments thus, "O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" The answer is simple yet astounding: "I thank my God through Jesus Christ my Lord." Paul isn't looking within for final victory, but to Jesus. Paul says, "So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

 

[RAdam]

By the way, one of the keys to understanding Romans 7 is verse 7: "What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."

Paul is talking about our perception of sin. By the law is the knowledge of sin. So when he says, in verse 9, "For I was alive without the law once: but when teh commandment came, sin revived, and I died." He doesn't mean he was sinless, he means he didn't perceive the depths of his own sinfulness without the law. This was specifically what the law was intended to do, to be a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. It was supposed to expose our sinfulness and convince us of our need for a savior, so that no flesh would glory in His sight.

 

[canadyjd]

In that section of scripture from Romans 7, Paul is speaking of the spiritual warfare that exists in all regenerated children of God.....

I disagree.

Paul has personified "sin" as a master who controls the unregenerate.

Who can set such an unregenerate person free from the sin master? Jesus Christ (v. 24-25)

peace to youraying:

 

[RAdam]

I disagree.

Paul has personified "sin" as a master who controls the unregenerate.

Who can set such an unregenerate person free from the sin master? Jesus Christ (v. 24-25)

peace to youraying:

Why then does he speak about himself in the present tense? Is he unregenerate at that time?

 

[canadyjd]

Why then does he speak about himself in the present tense? Is he unregenerate at that time?

He is using a rhetorical device to make his point. He is speaking of himself as a lost person attempting to keep the law.

In chp. 7 v.7-8, Paul speaks of the effect the law had on him, revealing sin and producing even more sin, resulting in death.

He then personfies both sin and death as masters who control us. Sin, proving itself to be utterly sinful, producing sin in him and then sellling him to death, all the while using "slave language" to illustrate the power of sin over the unregenerate.

This culminates in the lost person crying out "Wretched man that I am!" (a slave term) "Who will set me free from the body of this (belonging to the) death (master).

The answer is Jesus Christ, who sets us free from the control of sin because we die (chp 6 v.11 "Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus") to sin and alive to Christ.

8 v.2 "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death"

All of this speaks of Jesus Christ freeing us from our enslavement to sin.

peace to youraying:

 

[pinoybaptist]

Is spiritual death from birth ? or is it produced in time ?
does a leopard have spots from birth ? or do these spots develop in time ?
are predators such from birth ? or do they become predators in time ?
does a spiritually dead parent give birth to a spiritually alive child, or does the child die spiritually in time ?

 

[Cypress]

He is using a rhetorical device to make his point. He is speaking of himself as a lost person attempting to keep the law.

In chp. 7 v.7-8, Paul speaks of the effect the law had on him, revealing sin and producing even more sin, resulting in death.

He then personfies both sin and death as masters who control us. Sin, proving itself to be utterly sinful, producing sin in him and then sellling him to death, all the while using "slave language" to illustrate the power of sin over the unregenerate.

This culminates in the lost person crying out "Wretched man that I am!" (a slave term) "Who will set me free from the body of this (belonging to the) death (master).

The answer is Jesus Christ, who sets us free from the control of sin because we die (chp 6 v.11 "Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus") to sin and alive to Christ.

8 v.2 "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death"

All of this speaks of Jesus Christ freeing us from our enslavement to sin.

peace to youraying:

What is it then that causes you to sin now? You meaning as a believer.

 

[canadyjd]

What is it then that causes you to sin now? You meaning as a believer.

There is no doubt that a believer continues to struggle with sin. We are prone to wander. We are easily deceived. Sin and the world still tends to influence us.

I am just saying that is not Paul's point in Romans 7.

peace to youraying:

 

[RAdam]

He is using a rhetorical device to make his point. He is speaking of himself as a lost person attempting to keep the law.

In chp. 7 v.7-8, Paul speaks of the effect the law had on him, revealing sin and producing even more sin, resulting in death.

He then personfies both sin and death as masters who control us. Sin, proving itself to be utterly sinful, producing sin in him and then sellling him to death, all the while using "slave language" to illustrate the power of sin over the unregenerate.

This culminates in the lost person crying out "Wretched man that I am!" (a slave term) "Who will set me free from the body of this (belonging to the) death (master).

The answer is Jesus Christ, who sets us free from the control of sin because we die (chp 6 v.11 "Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus") to sin and alive to Christ.

8 v.2 "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death"

All of this speaks of Jesus Christ freeing us from our enslavement to sin.

peace to youraying:

Beginning in verse 22 he writes: "for I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

He is speaking of himself as regenerate and then he describes a war going on within himself between the inward man, or the law of his mind, and the old man, the flesh. He says he both serves the law of God and the law of sin. He's not speaking hypothetically, nor is he speaking of an unregenerate person. He is speaking of himself as a regenerated person who is trying to please God but is still having to fight against the desires of his flesh to serve sin.

 

[canadyjd]

Beginning in verse 22 he writes: "for I delight in the law of God after the inward man: .... So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

He is speaking of himself as regenerate and then he describes a war going on within himself between the inward man, or the law of his mind, and the old man, the flesh. He says he both serves the law of God and the law of sin. He's not speaking hypothetically, nor is he speaking of an unregenerate person. He is speaking of himself as a regenerated person who is trying to please God but is still having to fight against the desires of his flesh to serve sin.

I disagree.

Paul is speaking of his attempt to keep the Law of God. When Paul attempted to served the Law of God, he was unregenerate. Though his desire was to serve the law of God, sin (personified) enslaved his flesh.

When Christ sets you free, you walk according to the Spirit, not according to the Law by which sin enslaves the flesh.

8:2 "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. (3) For what the Law could not do, weak as it ws through the flesh, God did sending His own Son...."

Notice the transition Paul makes from speaking of serving the "Law of God" (i.e. O.T. Law) whereby his flesh is enslaved to sin and living by the "law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" whereby he is freed from sin to live according to the Spirit.

Romans chp. 7 is Paul speaking of himself as unregenerate, enslaved to sin.

peace to youraying: