Regeneration does precede Redemption

[psalms109:31]

You are claiming that I have omitted the Word of God, but that is not the case. We were simply not discussing that, just as their are many other aspects which we were not discussing.

Faith comes from hearing the word, true enough. But Jesus said you cannot even SEE the kingdom of Heaven, unless you were FIRST born again. We have "ears that will not hear": unless the Holy Spirit first opens them, through regeneration, we cannot hear the Word of God, and believe.

Jesus said...

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Notice that only Jesus' sheep (which were already given by the Father, according to Jesus) "hear his voice," the word of God. The rest, do not hear it (in an understanding, salvific way)

Jesus said that He will disown those who disown Him. I wonder why He said that about them. You cannot see kingdom of heaven until you are born again, not believe.

Hebrews 11:1
[ The Triumphs of Faith ] Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

You cannot have faith until you hear so faith comes first.

 

[Havensdad]

Where is being baptized in the Spirit mentioned in Galatians 3:14? It speaks only of receiving the Spirit.

Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

This verse says we receive the Spirit through faith, so faith necessarily precedes regeneration. And it was said earlier in the same chapter.

Nope. First of all, the Bible has two ways of speaking: how we see things, and how God sees things. Galatians is simply telling us how things haappen from our perspective. Christ has already told us, back in John 3, that the Spirit moves wherever it wants to, and all we see is the result of tat movement: i.e. faith and repentance.

Faith and repentance are given to us by God, through regeneration. The scriptures are very clear on this: this is separate from the filling of the Holy Spirit, which happens AFTER we are cleansed, are given faith, and repent.

Romans 12:3 "..think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned."

John 3 : The Spirit "blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes."

Nicodemus asked a very direct question: how can a man be born again? Funny that Jesus did not say "He has to have faith." Why? Because of what Jesus goes on to say, that the Spirit moves where it will, and all we see is the result: saving faith and repentance.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Here Paul asks how the Galatians received the Spirit, and shows it was through faith that came by hearing God's word. And notice this must be regeneration, because in next verse it says "having begun in the Spirit", so this is not speaking of some later work of the Spirit.

No. Paul is not speaking of regeneration here. Also, faith is not the determining factor of WHO receives the indwelling of the Spirit, here, it is simply the means that God uses, to impart it to whom He wills: We receive this THROUGH or BY faith: not BECAUSE OF faith.

If I say the car gets gas "through the fuel pump" this does not mean that the fuel pump decides when to send more gas. That decision comes from the one pushing the pedal, and the fuel pump is simply a vessel to carry out this persons desire.

 

[Winman]

Nope. First of all, the Bible has two ways of speaking: how we see things, and how God sees things. Galatians is simply telling us how things haappen from our perspective. Christ has already told us, back in John 3, that the Spirit moves wherever it wants to, and all we see is the result of tat movement: i.e. faith and repentance.

Nowhere in John 3 does it say the Holy Spirit regenerates us and gives us faith, I challange you to show that. You are reading into this passage what you want it to say, not what it actually says.

Show me in John 3 where it says we are regenerated by the Holy Spirit to have faith.

Faith and repentance are given to us by God, through regeneration. The scriptures are very clear on this: this is separate from the filling of the Holy Spirit, which happens AFTER we are cleansed, are given faith, and repent.

Again, show this from scripture. You say it is clear, it should be very easy to show then.

Nicodemus asked a very direct question: how can a man be born again? Funny that Jesus did not say "He has to have faith." Why? Because of what Jesus goes on to say, that the Spirit moves where it will, and all we see is the result: saving faith and repentance.

Jesus indeed mentions faith, directly after speaking of being born again he shows the necessity of belief.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

You completely ignore these verses specifically showing that faith is required to be born again (regenerated, given life).

 

[Havensdad]

Nowhere in John 3 does it say the Holy Spirit regenerates us and gives us faith, I challange you to show that. You are reading into this passage what you want it to say, not what it actually says.

Show me in John 3 where it says we are regenerated by the Holy Spirit to have faith.

Nicodemus: "Jesus, how can a man be born again?"

Jesus: "The Spirit moves wherever it wants. All you can see, is the result."

I think that is pretty clear. Doesn't require any explanation.

Again, show this from scripture. You say it is clear, it should be very easy to show then.

Nicodemus: "Jesus, how can a man be born again?"

Jesus: "The Spirit moves wherever it wants. All you can see, is the result."

I think that is pretty clear. Doesn't require any explanation.

Jesus indeed mentions faith, directly after speaking of being born again he shows the necessity of belief.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

This shows nothing of the kind. This would directly contradict what Jesus just said. Jesus is simply showing the "results" which he mentioned in a previous passage.

"Whosoever" is not an invitation, in the English, or the Greek. It does not say "whoever chooses to believe. It just says that those who are believers, will be saved. He does not say one has to be believe to be born again, he says only those who believe will see the kingdom of heaven (be saved). These are two different things, as Jesus clearly stated.

If I go out and give everyone a ticket to a movie, and then state "whoever has a ticket, can go in" that says nothing about a choice. It is a statement of reality. The Holy Spirit has moved wherever it wills, regenerating men unto belief, and because of this belief, that has been given (the "results thereof" of being born again, mentioned earlier), they are saved (will enter the kingdom of God).

Again, Nicodemus asked Jesus a straight question: How do we get born again? Jesus replies that the Spirit moves where it wills, and we see the results (belief/faith).

You completely ignore these verses specifically showing that faith is required to be born again (regenerated, given life).

You completely ignore the verses that say God gives us our faith. Why do you choose to ignore them?

 

[webdog]

Nicodemus: "Jesus, how can a man be born again?"

Jesus: "The Spirit moves wherever it wants. All you can see, is the result."

I think that is pretty clear. Doesn't require any explanation.

You failed to mention Nicodemus asking "how can this be?" and then Jesus explaining EXACTLY how in v. 14-18.

 

[Winman]

Nicodemus: "Jesus, how can a man be born again?"

Jesus: "The Spirit moves wherever it wants. All you can see, is the result."

I think that is pretty clear. Doesn't require any explanation.

Notice you said, "I think". You didn't show scripture. Let's look at the verses and see what it actually says.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

In verse 5 Jesus says a man must be born of water and of the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God, so it is not only the Spriit that is necessary, it is also the water.

Now what is this water? There are many opinions on this, but I personally believe this is speaking of the word of God.

Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

1 Pet 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

This verse is very important, because it specifically says we are born again "by the word of God". So, I personally believe the water spoken of in John 3:5 is the word of God. Without first hearing the word of God you cannot be born again.

Verse 6 shows that a spiritual birth is required to enter the kingdom of God.

Now, look carefully at verse 8, what does it say? Jesus compares the Holy Spirit to the wind. We cannot see the wind, but notice carefully Jesus says, "thou hearest the sound thereof". No regeneration mentioned here, the one and only effect shown is that we can hear the Spirit. Now how do you hear the Spirit?

Let me ask you, did you hear the sound of the Holy Spirit when you were regenerated? I did. I heard the preaching of the word of God which convicted me as a sinner, but also taught me that Jesus died for my sins and would save me if I came to him in repentance.

I cannot explain this because it is supernatural, but the scriptures are the power of the Spirit of God. The word of God is quick and powerful and able to pierce to the heart.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Faith comes by hearing the word of God. Notice that Paul does not say faith comes by the regeneration of the Holy Spirit. Did Paul forget to mention this? It is hard to believe Paul could overlook such an important doctrine. But if you believe Calvinism you must believe Paul failed to mention one of the most important doctrines you hold, and says we must only hear the word of God to have faith.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The scriptures numerous times show we receive the Holy Spirit by hearing and believing God's word.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

I mean, there it is right there, Paul says we received the Spirit by the hearing of faith. So faith precedes regeneration. And there are other verses that show this.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

The order of events in salvation is very clearly shown here, #1 a man hears the gospel, #2 a man trusts or believes the gospel, and #3 a man receives and is sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Now, I have shown scripture, not personal opinion, and I can show many more. You cannot show one single verse to support that the Holy Spirit regenerates a man to have faith. In hundreds of years not one Calvinist has ever been able to show this. No, you read into the scriptures what you want them to say to validate your doctrine, but they do not.

John 3 does not say a man is regenerated to have faith, in fact, the only effect shown is that a man hears the sound thereof. That's it.

 

[Havensdad]

You failed to mention Nicodemus asking "how can this be?" and then Jesus explaining EXACTLY how in v. 14-18.

No, I didn't. Jesus was explaining what was meant by "you see the results thereof." In other words "How does this work out?" "Well, when the Spirit moves, you will see the results (belief), and through that, they will see the Kingdom of God (be saved)."

 

[webdog]

No, I didn't. Jesus was explaining what was meant by "you see the results thereof." In other words "How does this work out?" "Well, when the Spirit moves, you will see the results (belief), and through that, they will see the Kingdom of God (be saved)."

I know that is your take on it, but that is not what the Scripture is saying, particularly that this was the results of the "Spirit move where it (actually He) wants to". By Jesus saying that,He was simply stating the new birth is something that cannot be seen like the physical, what Nicodemus was puzzled about (how can a man return to the womb and be reborn).

 

[Havensdad]

I know that is your take on it, but that is not what the Scripture is saying, particularly that this was the results of the "Spirit move where it (actually He) wants to". By Jesus saying that,He was simply stating the new birth is something that cannot be seen like the physical, what Nicodemus was puzzled about (how can a man return to the womb and be reborn).

The emphasis in this question by Nicodemus, is the man's action: his ability to accomplish the task. "Can a man...

Jesus' reply is "No, a man cannot. The Spirit does it, where He chooses. All you see is the result."

 

[webdog]

The emphasis in this question by Nicodemus, is the man's action: his ability to accomplish the task. "Can a man...

Jesus' reply is "No, a man cannot. The Spirit does it, where He chooses. All you see is the result."

I agree with all of that. That does not prove that the "result" is faith, rather the "result" of being born again is entering the Kingdom (salvation).

 

[Winman]

The emphasis in this question by Nicodemus, is the man's action: his ability to accomplish the task. "Can a man...

Jesus' reply is "No, a man cannot. The Spirit does it, where He chooses. All you see is the result."

That a man is regenerated by the Holy Spirit is not the question here, everyone agrees that a man is born again by the Spirit.

The question is which comes first, faith or regeneration? That is not addressed whatsoever in John 3:5-8, Jesus is simply explaining that a person must be born again by the water and the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God.

How come you Calvinists never speak about the water mentioned in John 3:5? Jesus says unless a man be born of the water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God. I never hear you Calvinists speaking about this water. Why not?

And then in the following verses Jesus makes it very clear that a person must believe on him to have life.

Nowhere in John 3:5-8 does it say a person is regenerated to have faith.

 

[Theopolis]

Show me in John 3 where it says we are regenerated by the Holy Spirit to have faith.

John 3:3 Except one be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

In the above verse, please notice that being born precedes seeing. Sight doesn't precede the being born. The word "see" in this verse literally means to perceive, or become aware of.

 

[Winman]

John 3:3 Except one be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

In the above verse, please notice that being born precedes seeing. Sight doesn't precede the being born. The word "see" in this verse literally means to perceive, or become aware of.

That is not the question, the question is what comes first, faith or regeneration? This verse does not speak about faith or belief whatsoever.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Who was Jesus speaking to here? His disciples.

Were they believers? Yes.

Did they have the indwelling Holy Spirit yet? No.

I agree with you that the Holy Spirit enlightens us and teaches us the things of God. But you must believe to receive the Spirit.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Once again, Paul asked the Galatians how they received the Holy Spirit. Was it by the works of the law? No. Was it by hearing God's word and believing it? Yes.

I have already shown several verses that show a man first hears the word of God, then believes, and only after believing receives the Spirit. These verses are very straightforward and easy to understand to the unbiased mind.

 

[Theopolis]

That is not the question, the question is what comes first, faith or regeneration?

In my understanding, regeneration precedes faith (belief).

The verse below is in reference to being born again (regenerated). Notice that human decision doesn't cause a person to be born anew. Your belief (decision) is ruled out as being able to bring about the new birth (regeneration)

John 1:13 born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

 

[webdog]

John 3:3 Except one be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

In the above verse, please notice that being born precedes seeing. Sight doesn't precede the being born. The word "see" in this verse literally means to perceive, or become aware of.

You have to read a linear order of events into that passage, as it not there. It is plainly stating to see the Kingdom one must be born again. That is it.

 

[webdog]

In my understanding, regeneration precedes faith (belief).

The verse below is in reference to being born again (regenerated). Notice that human decision doesn't cause a person to be born anew. Your belief (decision) is ruled out as being able to bring about the new birth (regeneration)

John 1:13 born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

Justification occurs with faith. To pass from death to life and darkness to light prior to faith and justificaiton makes no sense

 

[Theopolis]

Justification occurs with faith.

I agree

To pass from death to life and darkness to light prior to faith and justificaiton makes no sense

FWIW
Once a man is regenerated he the possesses spiritual life. Once a person believes by faith he possesses eternal life. In my view spiritual life differs from eternal life. A man is passive in becoming regenerated, but pro-active in becoming saved and receiving the free gift of eternal life.

 

[Theopolis]

You have to read a linear order of events into that passage, as it not there. It is plainly stating to see the Kingdom one must be born again. That is it.

I simply read John 3:3 as it is found. Every time I read it I find that being born precedes any seeing. What's true concerning our physical birth is also true concerning our spiritual birth.

 

[RAdam]

I'll speak about the water in John 3.

Titus 3:5 - Now by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost.

Ezekiel 36:25 - Then I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all yoru idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

I propose that the water Jesus speaks of is the washing of regeneration. Consider this passage from Hebrews 9 - For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

There is a cleansing which occurs in regeneration.

 

[Theopolis]

How come you Calvinists never speak about the water mentioned in John 3:5? Jesus says unless a man be born of the water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God. I never hear you Calvinists speaking about this water. Why not?

I will attempt to address your question, but first of all please understand that I am neither Calvinist or Arminian.

I don't believe John 3:5 can property be understood without John 3:6, so let me post those two verses, because the answer is found in verse 6.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

In verse 5, Jesus refers to 1) being born of water, and 2) being born of the Spirit.
Verse 6 clarifies for us what the two births of verse 5 are referring to. Being born of water, verse 5, corresponds with being born of the flesh, and being born of the Spirit in verse 5, corresponds with being born of the Spirit. In other words, being born of water is the fleshly physical birth, and the water is the watery womb of our fleshly physical mothers womb which breaks just before being born physically. And being born of the Spirit, is referring to being born spiritually by God's Spirit. In verses 5 and 6 Jesus is merely contrasting physical birth with spiritual birth for Nicodemus. He's telling Nicodemus, just as you had to be born physically before he was able to experience physical life, so likewise he must be born spiritually in order to experience spiritual life.

That's my take on it FWIW