The SDA prophet denies the diety of Christ

[BobRyan]

4 (chs. 10:18; 17:3). Christ's Life Was Unborrowed.--The Word, who was with God, and who was God, had this life. Physical life is something which each individual received. It is not eternal or immortal; for God, the Lifegiver, takes it again. Man has no control over his life. But the life of Christ was unborrowed. No one can take this life from Him. "I lay it down of myself," He said. In Him was life, original, unborrowed, underived. This life is not inherent in man. He can possess it only through Christ. He cannot earn it; it is given him as a free gift if he will believe in Christ as his personal Saviour. "This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3. This is the open fountain of life for the world (ST Feb. 13, 1912). {5BC 1130.3}

(Matt. 27:54; 1 Tim. 3:16.) But although Christ's divine glory was for a time veiled and eclipsed by His assuming humanity, yet He did not cease to be God when He became man. The human did not take the place of the divine, nor the divine of the human. This is the mystery of godliness. The two expressions "human" and "divine" were, in Christ, closely and inseparably one, and yet they had a distinct individuality. Though Christ humbled Himself to become man, the Godhead was still His own.
{5BC 1129.3}

When Christ's indwelling glory flashed forth, it was too intense for His pure and perfect humanity entirely to conceal. The scribes and Pharisees did not speak in acknowledgment of Him, but their enmity and hatred were baffled as His majesty shone forth. The truth, obscured as it was by a veil of humiliation, spoke to every heart with unmistakable evidence. This led to the words of Christ, "Ye know who I am." Men and devils were compelled, by the shining forth of His glory, to confess, "Truly, this is the Son of God." Thus God was revealed; thus Christ was glorified (ST May 10, 1899). {5BC 1129.5}

Christ left His position in the heavenly courts, and came to this earth to live the life of human beings. This sacrifice He made in order to show that Satan's charge against God is false--that it is possible for man to obey the laws of God's kingdom. Equal with the Father, honored and adored by the angels, in our behalf Christ humbled Himself, and came to this earth to live a life of lowliness and poverty--to be a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.

if He wasn't God, or was not fully God(while being fully man), then His sacrifice is meaningless.
how anyone who beleives the bible can defend a false prophet is beyond me, unless they prefer to trust people not God and His written word.

"equal with the Father" is not a funny kind of way of saying "not fully God".

"Did not cease to be God" is also not an effective way of saying "not fully God"

I think many will be able to see that point.

Again - this is not one of those key areas where an actual difference is to be had. But there are many such areas -

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

While it is true that many believe the phrase "the angel of the Lord" refers to the pre-incarnate Jesus (where "angel" means "messenger"), Ellen White taught that Michael the Archangel (a very specifically named angel - a created being) was Jesus.

There are some denominations that teach that Christ was not God -- not "equal to the Father" not "God" -- but Adventists are not one of them. And neither is Ellen White. Her statement is that Christ "did not CEASE to be God at the incarnation" and that as God He was "equal to the Father".

Impossible to shoehorn that view into "just an exaulted angel".

But then what about Michael?

In Genesis God is seen visiting Abraham to discuss Sodom and Gomorrah - along with two angels. They appear as "three men". But as much as we may sing "men are not god - men are not god" it does not change the Bible fact that God was able to appear in that form as scripture said.

This is also true in Romans 2 where Paul says that God will judge the world through "the MAN Christ Jesus". We may sing that "man is not God" but does not change the Romans 2 Bible fact that Christ is titled that way.

In fact Ellen White's view of Christ as God the Son - is that HE is the one God thundering the commandments from Sinai as God the Son. HE is the one that Moses speaks with at the top of Sinai. HE is the one seen by the 70 elders on the side of the mountain. None of this is compatible with those groups that believe that Christ was just an exaulted angel.

In Is 9 Christ is said to be "everlasting father Prince of peace" that is "given unto you" given to God's People as the "God-Man".

In Dan 10 he is the "prince of your people"

In Rev 12 He is the one who has HIS OWN angels that then wars against Satan and his angels.

Christ appears in that form as commander of the Angels - but He is no less God than when he appeared in the form of a man to Abraham.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Marcia]

There are some denominations that teach that Christ was not God -- not "equal to the Father" not "God" -- but Adventists are not one of them. And neither is Ellen White. Her statement is that Christ "did not CEASE to be God at the incarnation" and that as God He was "equal to the Father".

Impossible to shoehorn that view into "just an exaulted angel".

But then what about Michael?

In Genesis God is seen visiting Abraham to discuss Sodom and Gomorrah - along with two angels. They appear as "three men". But as much as we may sing "men are not god - men are not god" it does not change the Bible fact that God was able to appear in that form as scripture said.

This is also true in Romans 2 where Paul says that God will judge the world through "the MAN Christ Jesus". We may sing that "man is not God" but does not change the Romans 2 Bible fact that Christ is titled that way.

In fact Ellen White's view of Christ as God the Son - is that HE is the one God thundering the commandments from Sinai as God the Son. HE is the one that Moses speaks with at the top of Sinai. HE is the one seen by the 70 elders on the side of the mountain. None of this is compatible with those groups that believe that Christ was just an exaulted angel.

In Is 9 Christ is said to be "everlasting father Prince of peace" that is "given unto you" given to God's People as the "God-Man".

In Dan 10 he is the "prince of your people"

In Rev 12 He is the one who has HIS OWN angels that then wars against Satan and his angels.

Christ appears in that form as commander of the Angels - but He is no less God than when he appeared in the form of a man to Abraham.

in Christ,

Bob

Equating Jesus with Michael the Archangel is demoting Jesus; Michael is a created being.

 

[targus]

Notice the typical SDA tactic voluminously to cut and paste from the Ellen White library without directly answering any question.

Long and pondering words that don't give away basic beliefs.

That's what cults do.

 

[BobRyan]

Equating Jesus with Michael the Archangel is demoting Jesus; Michael is a created being.

As already stated in Genesis we have God and 2 angels being described as "3 men" seen walking toward Abraham.

We may sing songs all we wish about "men are created beings" however a careful reading of scripture shows that the Bible writers never considered God to be a "created being". Thus "appearing in the form of a man" did not "make God a created being".

I keep noticing that point.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

4 (chs. 10:18; 17:3). Christ's Life Was Unborrowed.--The Word, who was with God, and who was God, had this life. Physical life is something which each individual received. It is not eternal or immortal; for God, the Lifegiver, takes it again. Man has no control over his life. But the life of Christ was unborrowed. No one can take this life from Him. "I lay it down of myself," He said. In Him was life, original, unborrowed, underived. This life is not inherent in man. He can possess it only through Christ. He cannot earn it; it is given him as a free gift if he will believe in Christ as his personal Saviour. "This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3. This is the open fountain of life for the world (ST Feb. 13, 1912). {5BC 1130.3}

(Matt. 27:54; 1 Tim. 3:16.) But although Christ's divine glory was for a time veiled and eclipsed by His assuming humanity, yet He did not cease to be God when He became man. The human did not take the place of the divine, nor the divine of the human. This is the mystery of godliness. The two expressions "human" and "divine" were, in Christ, closely and inseparably one, and yet they had a distinct individuality. Though Christ humbled Himself to become man, the Godhead was still His own.
{5BC 1129.3}

When Christ's indwelling glory flashed forth, it was too intense for His pure and perfect humanity entirely to conceal. The scribes and Pharisees did not speak in acknowledgment of Him, but their enmity and hatred were baffled as His majesty shone forth. The truth, obscured as it was by a veil of humiliation, spoke to every heart with unmistakable evidence. This led to the words of Christ, "Ye know who I am." Men and devils were compelled, by the shining forth of His glory, to confess, "Truly, this is the Son of God." Thus God was revealed; thus Christ was glorified (ST May 10, 1899). {5BC 1129.5}

Christ left His position in the heavenly courts, and came to this earth to live the life of human beings. This sacrifice He made in order to show that Satan's charge against God is false--that it is possible for man to obey the laws of God's kingdom. Equal with the Father, honored and adored by the angels, in our behalf Christ humbled Himself, and came to this earth to live a life of lowliness and poverty--to be a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.

Notice the typical SDA tactic voluminously to cut and paste from the Ellen White library without directly answering any question.
.

Once again Targus claims not to be able to read the sections posted - even when they are highlighted for him in red.

Oh well.

Also - as I stated earlier - Ellen White had more than 50,000 pages of manuscript. The tiny little one sentence wonders that the SDA bashing sites hope to spin - do not stand up to "CONTEXT" when we view the full list of statements on that subject by the author they want to "spin". Which means the misdirection provided on the SDA-bashing sites is great for those who do not actually read the underlying documents in context.

My response is to provide those underlying documents so that the readers can make up their own minds on that point instead of simply being told what to think.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[targus]

We may sing songs all we wish about "men are created beings" however a careful reading of scripture shows that the Bible writers never considered God to be a "created being". Thus "appearing in the form of a man" did not "make God a created being".

I keep noticing that point.

And I notice that you keep turning the point on it's head.

No one has said that the Bible writers ever considered God to be a created being.

But Ellen White did.

I notice that your answer comes no where near addressing that point.

Typical SDA tactic - dance around the question and then pretend that it is everyone else that doesn't get it - and be smug in the process.

 

[BobRyan]

Hint -- nothing in the Adventist statement of beliefs says "Christ as God the Son was a created being" and there is not even a statement from Ellen White saying "Christ was at one time a created being".

Apart from the incarnation where God the Son is "incarnated" into human flesh as the God-man (a case where as noted above "He did not cease to be God") there is no case in which Christ was anything other than eternal God THOUGH He certainly DID appear to Abraham as YHWH in Gen 18:1 and accompanied by two angels, took on the form of "three men".

We may have songs and dances all day long about "men" being created beings - but that did not mean that YHWH (who in this case was God the Son just as is the case at Sinai) was a created being.

The same is true about God the Son appearing in the form of Michael as commander of the Angel hosts of heaven.

in Christ,

Bob