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Let GOD Be GOD!

olegig

New Member
no, no, no, sir, I am not insinuating anything against you.
my apologies if it came across that way.
I was genuinely interested in what you said because I too believe that our salvation really is of the "faith OF Christ", and the obedience of Christ.
As for itutut, I was really curious as to whether he were you, or you were he, in a past BB life.
no offense meant there.
No need to apologize, I know where the insinuation came from.
When I started presenting OR with some tough scriptural evidences against his positions, he said I might be this itutut fellow and insinuated my position of a shady nature.

I only presented the link in an attempt to show I have a history on the web that hopefully predates itutut.

If you read the post before mine you might understand why I posted about the Gomarists:laugh:

I apologize, as clearly your knowledge of Dutch internecine religious squabbles is far superior to mine:

I suppose I am responsible for this misunderstanding.
In the post sited, I was not referring to "Gomarist" but to Gomer Pile USMC, the comic character.
 

pinoybaptist

Active Member
Site Supporter
Pinoy, with all due respect you will need to provide specific quotes where I appear to say these things. You disagree with me as much as I disagree with you. The only difference I have seen thus far in our discussions is that you call me a "lying devil" and I have called you my brother in Christ whom I pray for and love. You may take that as being disingenuous, but I and the Lord know my heart. As I have testified, two of my very best friends are Calvinistic. I LOVE them DEARLY and would gladly give my life to save either one of them. In fact, my oldest brother is Calvinistic as well. I don't harbor near the ill will as you presume I do against Calvinistic believers. No more so than Paul does for the Israelites of his day who don't believe his teachings.

You're telling me to go over your two thousand posts and check them out ?
No, I won't.
Not for your sake.
You say you love me as a brother-in-Christ and harbor no malice against Calvinists ?
Well, God knows your heart, I don't.
I can only judge and react to what I see, or read.
I did try to go on a fresh start with you, but respect for others seem to just be a phrase to you.
A retort you gave ORB just turned me all off again.
I am getting tired of this quarrel, you know.
When I say something cruel, and I admit I do that, it ends up depressing me.
But don't let that change you, though.
I can handle the depression.
 
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Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
You're telling me to go over your two thousand posts and check them out ?
No, I won't.
Not for your sake.

I'm not telling you do anything. I'm only asking that if you bring a direct accusation against a brother you probably need to have something more than a blanket accusation. When I come across "negatively" in a particular post draw my attention to that post and allow me to respond. That is all I ask.


You say you love me as a brother-in-Christ and harbor no malice against me ?
Well, God knows your heart, I don't.
I can only judge and react to what I see, or read.
I did try to go on a fresh start with you, but respect for others seem to just be a phrase to you.
A retort you gave ORB just turned me all off again.
You mean the one where I simply added the phrase "of the elect" to the end of his phrase, "Calvinism excludes no one?" All things considered brother is that really all it takes to set you off in these discussions? Let's be reasonable. You called me a lying devil and I'm still conversing with you. You don't see the double standard there?

I am getting tired of this quarrel, you know.
When I say something cruel, and I admit I do that, it ends up depressing me..
Then don't do it. Can't we just all get along?

Stick to the issues and text, period. Or, just don't engage the discussion, that is fine too.
 

Jerome

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I suppose I am responsible for this misunderstanding.
In the post sited, I was not referring to "Gomarist" but to Gomer Pile USMC, the comic character.
I know you were.
I should be more pun-ctilious in avoiding obscure historical references.:laugh:
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
I know you were just being pushy here, but you made me wonder.

Were you chosen to believe in Calvinism, or is Calvanistic belief a choice you have made of your own study? :confused:

I was chosen to study and believe Scripture: 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
I was chosen to study and believe Scripture: 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

So, then do you believe we were not chosen to study and believe scripture?
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
No, only that you and your like-minded group are not handling the word of truth with precision as the ISV says.

But why? Why do you "handle the word of truth with precision" while we do not? Are you smarter or better in some way, or has God given you something he didn't give us?
 

menageriekeeper

Active Member
I was chosen to study and believe Scripture:

Not exactly what I wanted to know. I'm not Cal yet I study the scriptures as I believe it is pleasing to God that I do so.

Let me word it differently. Were you raised from a child (or a young Christian) with Calvinisn as the main teaching in your family and found as an adult that nothing contradicted what you had been taught, OR

Did you study the scripture for yourself (aside from any knowledge of Calvin) and later find that Calvinism fit what you already had decided for yourself OR (and I am NOT being sarcastic)

Did you stumble upon Calvin by some event that could be considered an act of the Holy Spirit?

For myself, I glean my beliefs from a combination of all three. I am always curious to find out the whys and hows of one who holds onto a position strongly that can't possibly affect our salvation. See, my father wouldn't be having this conversation with you because he'd consider you to deeply involved in a false doctrine. I have strong non-Cal roots in my family, but most can't tell me how they come by their beliefs either.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
When I started presenting OR with some tough scriptural evidences against his positions, he said I might be this itutut fellow and insinuated my position of a shady nature.

olegig

You have not presented me with any tough scriptural evidences against my positions that I could not rebut. I simply am not going to get involved in discussion with one who, like ituttut, believes in two gospels. Paul says let such a one be accursed. I wasted a lot of time with ituttut, a hyper dispensationalist. I do not plan to waste any more!

I have told you this before so you have no reason to boast!
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Romans 8:28-30
28. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


Below is Scandelon’s faulty interpretation of the above passage.

Only if you think this passage says certain individuals were predestined to believe, rather than what it actually teaches which is that those who love God (vs 28) are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, something we as believers still eagerly await to be completed with the glorification of our bodies.

Consider the passage from Romans posted above. In verse 28 we read an obvious truth: all things work together for good to them that love God. It must be conceded that there are many times when this truth is extremely hard to reconcile with the tribulations of the true believers and that its truth is often only revealed in time and perhaps only in eternity.

Now consider that part of Verse 28 which describes those discussed above: to them who are the called according to his purpose. Who are those identified as the called? Obviously they are those who love GOD. But the Scripture does not stop there. The called are those whom GOD foreknew, those whom GOD knew as persons in eternity past. We also read that The called are those whom GOD did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, also in eternity past. This is totally consistent with Ephesians 1:4 which states: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:.

Note that in the three verses under consideration, other than the response of the love of GOD by the one who is "the called", GOD alone is pictured as active.

1. It is God who foreknew!

2. It is GOD who did predestinate!

3. It is GOD who called!

4. It is GOD who justified!

5. It is GOD who glorified!

Scandelon correctly states that those who love God are predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. However, it is contrary to the nature of man to love GOD of his own ffreewill. That requires the regeneration or New Birth, the work of the Holy Spirit.
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
Believers in scripture are often referred to as "the called" ones, but that in no way implies that others haven't also been called who rejected the call. "Many are CALLED, few are chosen." In that parable, on what basis are those who are called also chosen?
 

olegig

New Member
olegig

You have not presented me with any tough scriptural evidences against my positions that I could not rebut. I simply am not going to get involved in discussion with one who, like ituttut, believes in two gospels. Paul says let such a one be accursed. I wasted a lot of time with ituttut, a hyper dispensationalist. I do not plan to waste any more!

I have told you this before so you have no reason to boast!

Hey, there OldRegular, at least you are speaking to me again,,,,that's progress and some softening. :thumbsup:

In the flavor of the title of this thread to let God be God, please expound on the following:

Jeremiah 31:35-37 (King James Version)

35Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:

36If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

37Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
 

Winman

Active Member
Skandelon,

Perhaps you missed this: Post #60

You have not answered my objection and I'm curious how you would do it.

Blessings,

The Archangel

Archangel, I looked at your post. I believe this is your objection:

What you are describing here is, basically, a universal regeneration. But, that does not comport with the rest of the Scriptures. If you were correct, which you aren't, why would the book of Acts contain these two verses:

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed
Acts 16:14 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.

If you were correct, there would be no need for Luke to mention that God opened Lydia's heart to pay attention what was said by Paul. If you were correct, her heart should have already been opened.

If you were correct, there would be no need to quantify the Gentiles who believed from the Gentiles who did not, hence the "as many as."

From these two verses alone, it is clear that you presuppositions run contrary to the whole thought-line of Scripture.

I don't know how Skandelon would answer, but I think you are confusing "opened her heart" with regeneration. Lydia already was a believer and worshipped God as the scriptures themselves say, so she did not need to be regenerated. I believe that "opened her heart" means that the eyes of her understanding were opened so she could understand and discern the scriptures more fully. We see this same thing with the disciples whom Jesus met after his resurrection.

Luke 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

These men were already believers when Jesus spoke to them. But note how they said their heart burned while he "opened to us the scriptures". That is, Jesus made them to understand OT scripture. There are many prophesies of Christ that the disciples and believers did not fully understand until Jesus and the Holy Spirit revealed it to them. An example would be Abraham going out to sacrifice Isaac in obedience to God. Before Jesus died on the cross no believer would identify this as a figure or picture of God giving his son to die for us. This is revealed to us by the Holy Spirit. And notice the scripture you quoted shows the effect of her heart being opened in that she "paid attention to what was said by Paul".

So I believe this is speaking of Lydia's understanding being opened. She was already a believer beforehand.
 
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The Archangel

Well-Known Member
Archangel, I looked at your post. I believe this is your objection:



I don't know how Skandelon would answer, but I think you are confusing "opened her heart" with regeneration. Lydia already was a believer and worshipped God as the scriptures themselves say, so she did not need to be regenerated. I believe that "opened her heart" means that the eyes of her understanding were opened so she could understand and discern the scriptures more fully. We see this same thing with the disciples whom Jesus met after his resurrection.

Luke 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

These men were already believers when Jesus spoke to them. But note how they said their heart burned while he "opened to us the scriptures". That is, Jesus made them to understand OT scripture. There are many prophesies of Christ that the disciples and believers did not fully understand until Jesus and the Holy Spirit revealed it to them. An example would be Abraham going out to sacrifice Isaac in obedience to God. Before Jesus died on the cross no believer would identify this as a figure or picture of God giving his son to die for us. This is revealed to us by the Holy Spirit. And notice the scripture you quoted shows the effect of her heart being opened in that she "paid attention to what was said by Paul".

So I believe this is speaking of Lydia's understanding being opened. She was already a believer beforehand.

You are incorrect. When the text says Lydia was a "worshiper of God" it is referring to her being a convert to Judaism. She is a proselyte believer or a God-fearer. But those two things, in the New Testament, are not equivalent to being a believer.

Secondly, the Luke passage says their hearts burned as Jesus opened the scriptures. It never says their hearts were opened. So, these are two entirely different things.

Blessings,

The Archangel
 

Winman

Active Member
You are incorrect. When the text says Lydia was a "worshiper of God" it is referring to her being a convert to Judaism. She is a proselyte believer or a God-fearer. But those two things, in the New Testament, are not equivalent to being a believer.

Secondly, the Luke passage says their hearts burned as Jesus opened the scriptures. It never says their hearts were opened. So, these are two entirely different things.

Blessings,

The Archangel

Where do you get this stuff? I agree that Lydia was a gentile convert to Judaism, but she believed the truth that had been revealed to her just as Cornelius did. As Paul asked, how can a man believe on Christ if he has never heard of him?

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Lydia could not know of Jesus until Paul came along, but she indeed believed God's word that had been revealed to her. And if a person truly believed God's word before, when they heard of Jesus they would believe in him, as Jesus himself said.

John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?


You just don't get it. OT believers who truly believed God's word believed in Jesus when he was revealed. Those who did not truly believe God's word, even though they might have professed to do so, did not believe in Jesus when he was revealed.

This is the case with both Lydia and Cornelius, they both believed the OT scriptures, and when they heard of Jesus recognized him as the promised Christ and trusted on him.
 

The Archangel

Well-Known Member
Where do you get this stuff? I agree that Lydia was a gentile convert to Judaism, but she believed the truth that had been revealed to her just as Cornelius did. As Paul asked, how can a man believe on Christ if he has never heard of him?

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Lydia could not know of Jesus until Paul came along, but she indeed believed God's word that had been revealed to her. And if a person truly believed God's word before, when they heard of Jesus they would believe in him, as Jesus himself said.

John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?


You just don't get it. OT believers who truly believed God's word believed in Jesus when he was revealed. Those who did not truly believe God's word, even though they might have professed to do so, did not believe in Jesus when he was revealed.

This is the case with both Lydia and Cornelius, they both believed the OT scriptures, and when they heard of Jesus recognized him as the promised Christ and trusted on him.

You're asking me where I get this? You're saying I don't get it?!

This is basic biblical theology. Cornelius is not part of this discussion. We will stick with Lydia.

Lydia was a God-fearer, not--I repeat not--a Christian. This is why it is significant that the text says that God opened her heart to hear the words of Paul.

It is very likely that Lydia didn't know of Christ until Paul came to Philippi. Nevertheless, the text says "God opened her heart to pay attention to what was said to Paul."

The text shows a regenerative work on God's part. There's no getting around that.

The Archangel
 

Winman

Active Member
You're asking me where I get this? You're saying I don't get it?!

This is basic biblical theology. Cornelius is not part of this discussion. We will stick with Lydia.

Lydia was a God-fearer, not--I repeat not--a Christian. This is why it is significant that the text says that God opened her heart to hear the words of Paul.

It is very likely that Lydia didn't know of Christ until Paul came to Philippi. Nevertheless, the text says "God opened her heart to pay attention to what was said to Paul."

The text shows a regenerative work on God's part. There's no getting around that.

The Archangel

It's basic Calvinistic theology and total error. Those who truly believed God's word in the OT believed in Jesus when he was revealed as I just showed you from Christ's own words in John 5:46-47.

By your understanding no one in the OT could be a real "believer" because none of them knew of Christ.

Jesus Christ IS the Word of God.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

OT believers who truly believed God's word were believing on Christ, because Jesus is the Word of God. Lydia believed the OT scriptures and so was believing on Christ.

And that is what Jesus is saying in John 5. If a person truly believed Moses, then they would believe him. Jesus had no problem calling these people believers.

It was those who professed to believe Moses but did not who were not believers.

And as for all this being a God-fearer but not a believer (which is ridiculous), this is just convoluted Calvinistic theology. A person who sincerely fears God is a true believer.

Psa 34:9 O fear the LORD, ye his saints: for there is no want to them that fear him.

Psa 36:1 [To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David the servant of the LORD.] The transgression of the wicked saith within my heart, that there is no fear of God before his eyes.
 
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OldRegular

Well-Known Member
In the OP the Scripture passage Matthew 1:21 was included. This Scripture tells us: And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

I contend that in this passage his people are the Elect, chosen by GOD unto salvation before the foundation of the world. Some, notably those who hold to a doctrine of Freewillism, of one sort or another, claim that the passage is speaking of the Jews.

It should be noted that the verb shall is used in the imperative mood. [Those versed in Greek can debate if that is the proper translation.] Now did Jesus Christ save all the Jews from their sins. Obviously not unless you champion universal salvation. Therefore, the term his people cannot refer to the Jews; it can only refer to the Elect; those chosen by GOD the Father and GIVEN to Jesus Christ [John 6:65].

The point has also been made on this thread that those chosen unto salvation are regenerated or New Birthed by the Holy Spirit while they are dead in trespass and sins and then given the gift of Saving Faith [Ephesians 2:1-8]; a truth vehemently denied by those who hold the doctrine of Freewillism [of one sort or another].

I would like to address the attention of these folks to a passage of Scripture from the Apostle Paul's letter to those Saints at Phillipi:

Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake. This Scripture clearly teaches to all but the most, can I use the term “hardened” Freewillers, that those to whom the Apostle was writing were given the ability to believe on Jesus Christ.

That old Doctrine of Gracer John Gill writes of this truth:

For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, &c.] For the sake of his Gospel, for the good of his interest, and the glory of his name.

not only to believe in him; for faith in Christ, which is not merely believing that he is the Christ, and all that is said of him, or all that he himself says, but is a seeing of the Son, a going to him, receiving, embracing, leaning, relying, and living upon him, as God's salvation, is a pure gift of grace; it is not in nature, nor in every man, and in whom it is, it is not of themselves, it is the gift of God; the first implantation of it, all its acts and exercise, its increase, and the performance of it at last with power, are all owing to the grace of God; and this is only given to the elect, for it is a distinguishing gift; it is given to them, and them alone, and, therefore called the faith of God's elect:

Now I know that a lot of you folks would never resort to using the writing of anyone other than Scripture to support your view point but?????????John Gill does have a way with words and he wrote all of them {something like 10 million} with a quill pen! Amazing!
 
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