Piper teaches that some Calvinists might not be Born Again.

[swaimj]

Well, there must be a difference between head knowledge and heart knowledge.

I agree that there is a difference, but I don't think many of the arguments made by calvinists on this board allow for that difference.

After all, Scripture tells us that even the demons believe.

Scripture (James) says that the demons believe that there is one God (check the context). I'm not sure we can conclude that they understand the gospel or believe it even intellectually.

If they understood the truth of the Gospel - I mean really knew what it was about, do you think they would turn it down?

The gospel is not available to demons. Jesus did not die for them, so even if they intellectually apprehend the gospel, they cannot receive it. Incidentally, would you say that the non-elect are in the same category? Jesus did not die for them and, even if they intellectually apprehend the gospel, they cannot receive it? Woah, that'd make a good thread!

When I heard the Gospel there was nothing else for me to do but bow to it. Everyone I've ever spoken to who was saved has said the same thing - there was no way for them to turn away. What's the difference?

Then what do we make of the NT warnings given to believers about turning from Christ and the gospel. For instance, the writer of Hebrews, writing to believers warns "Take heed that there is not in any of you an evil heart of unbelief to turn from the living God". I think it is dangerous to say "I have believed the gospel and there is no way I could ever turn away from it". Except for God's grace, any of us certainly could and would. God's grace is required for salvation and for continuance as well.

 

[Rippon]

The gospel is not available to demons. Jesus did not die for them, so even if they intellectually apprehend the gospel, they cannot receive it. Incidentally, would you say that the non-elect are in the same category? Jesus did not die for them and, even if they intellectually apprehend the gospel, they cannot receive it? Woah, that'd make a good thread!

Yes, it would. The reprobate -- whether demons or people are inthe same category. And their end is the same as well.

I wonder why non-Cals aren't up-in-arms about how unjust God must be not to give demons "a chance" at salvation as they rail against God not giving so many earthlings a shot at being saved.

 

[Allan]

Yes, it would. The reprobate -- whether demons or people are inthe same category. And their end is the same as well.

I wonder why non-Cals aren't up-in-arms about how unjust God must be not to give demons "a chance" at salvation as they rail against God not giving so many earthlings a shot at being saved.

Because in understanding scripture your point is senseless.

Scripture shows that:

Hbr 6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hbr 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Hbr 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; ...

And if this is refering to us, who did not see these things from the beginning but were brought into this knowledge - how much more so the judgment upon those who were with Him in the beginning seeing His full glory, knowing the fulness of His power, .

It isn't about God being fair us (according to what 'we' think) and having to give someone a chance, but God determined to give to all 'men' the offer of salvation that whoever believes will have eternal life. That was God's choice and has nothing to do with being fair - but with being Just and Holy with respect to His own word.

 

[Allan]

Well, there must be a difference between head knowledge and heart knowledge. After all, Scripture tells us that even the demons believe.

Ann, you are completely distorting that passage. That passage points to the contrary of your argument. They not only believe in the their head but know it full well in their hearts because they were with Him in glory, seen the fullness of His glory, and the fullness of His power and authority, - this is why the know AND TREMBLE. It doesn't just state they know but they know the truth that there is One True God and they Tremble at Him.

You can not be with God and in His presense, hearing His good word and being in the presense of His awsome power and assume that person does not really know both in their head and heart. Thus they do know and they Tremble.

However, what one must REMEMBER is not that faith, in and of itself, saves anyone (neither demons who believe) but our salvation is accomplished by what our faith has been placed, and that object is that which brings about our salvation. Faith does not, of itself, save anyone - God saves. Therefore since there is no propitiation made or having ever been made for demons, no amount of faith they have 'about' God will save them. Faith must have and object whereby it clings and is given value and accomplishes that which it is believing for.

If they understood the truth of the Gospel - I mean really knew what it was about, do you think they would turn it down?

Are you serious??
They were WITH God, Heard Him speak, Saw His power, Knew His Glory and they turned it down. This is why they have no redemption -they knew the Truth (Jesus) and rejected it.

We see this 'principle' found in Heb 6 - For it is impossible...having seen and known...if they should fall away to renew them again unto repentance.

When I heard the Gospel there was nothing else for me to do but bow to it. Everyone I've ever spoken to who was saved has said the same thing - there was no way for them to turn away. What's the difference?

You bowed to it because you 'chose' to believe it was the truth. They rejected the very truth that they served because they wanted something more that that. Just as many people today do. They are offered salvation but will not receive it because they want something else.


This is actaully an older thread by JD, concerning 'Can Satan be saved'.

A portion of a post of mine from there:

Satan:
had seen, partook, and knew the full glory of God = Then sinned = Condemned = Justice appeased

Adam:
Had not seen, nor partook, nor knew the full glory of God = then sinned = Condemned = Christ substitutary death = Justice appeased = Adam saved

What is the difference, just look. Having full knowledge of God, seen ,partook and then rebelled leaves you with no alternitive option but condemnation.

 

[Rippon]

It isn't about God being fair us (according to what 'we' think) and having to give someone a chance,

But most non-Cals do indeed insist that God, being God, has to give everyone a square deal. They adamantly claim that every single person must have the very same opporunity to hear the Gospel for example.

but God determined to give to all 'men' the offer of salvation that whoever believes will have eternal life.

All people do not even hear the Gospel. So your words have no bearing in reality.

That was God's choice and has nothing to do with being fair - but with being Just and Holy with respect to His own word.

Fairness and justness mean the same thing.

 

[Allan]

But most non-Cals do indeed insist that God, being God, has to give everyone a square deal. They adamantly claim that every single person must have the very same opporunity to hear the Gospel for example.

No, that is 'your' understanding of anothers view..and it isn't correct either.

All people do not even hear the Gospel. So your words have no bearing in reality.

Did I say everyone hears the gospel? No.
However all people are given or revealed by God spiritual truths which they understand but they must either believe or not. If they will believe these revealed truths then we know that God will/is sending someone to reveal the fullness of truths in form of the gospel message - of which those truths speak to. These basic spiritual truths do not save a person but if they believe these, we know they will also believe the Gospel because these basic truths are both core and central to it's message.

Fairness and justness mean the same thing.

Not in the manner you are using the words when speaking for anothers view.

 

[pinoybaptist]

I think we all agree that salvation doesn't come through belief in a doctrinal system. But, the question I posed was with regard to the work of regeneration. Calvinists go to great links to talk about man's inability to do ANYTHING prior to being made alive. I'm just wondering how a "dead" man affirms, teaches, debates and passionately ascribes to any Christian system while still being "dead?" People talk about "mental assent" versus true saving faith, but even the concept of "mental assent" itself seems out of reach for what the Calvinists refer to as those who are "totally depraved."

I'm not arguing here, I'm just seeking clarity on different opinions on this subject. What exactly can a spiritually dead man do and what "can't" he do?

All right, so your point is that in espousing the doctrine of Total Depravity, even truly regenerate Calvinists and adherents to the Doctrine of Grace can be pretty stupid like the unregenerates with head knowledge who think they were once dead but now are alive.
So just drop the "let's love each other" crap and be who you really are and say what you really mean.

 

[pinoybaptist]

I posted this for 2 reasons:

(1) It's a good reminder for all of us to treat each other in brotherly love.

Coming from you, I'll pretend this didn't make go gwaaarkk !!
So, according to your concept of brotherly love, if a Calvinist like Piper, says that there may be Calvinists who simply have knowledge, that is an example of "brotherly love" to others who may not be Calvinists ?
What if Piper said, for example, that many Christians, regardless of tags, may simply be in possession of "head knowledge", or "mental assent", but not really be regenerate ?
How are you going to take that ?

(2) I would like to explore the idea that someone might be able to "embrace" Calvinism but not first be regenerated.

And how about exploring the idea that someone might give mental assent to Arminianism or Skandelonism but not first be regenerated ?

How does someone even give mental assent to something like Calvinism to such a degree they are willing to teach it, debate it,...

Are you referring to anyone in particular here on this board ?

Man up, and point your finger, if you don't I am accusing you of subtility of the magnitude of the serpent in the garden.

....... lose a job over it (as I did)

Oh, so that's where your hatred of the doctrine is coming from. You have an axe to grind because you lost a job over it, a job you probably loved. In other words, you sacrificed so much to it, you feel you've been had, and now are out to inflict vengeance and insinuate against those who truly understand and love the doctrine from their hearts, unlike you who gave mental assent to it, and as a result lost some crappy job you'll leave behind anyway if Christ comes for His saints today.
Notice: the term "His saints" include you. I don't care about the "head or mental" assenters, God knows who they are, and God knows who His people are.

You would most likely do better in your "brotherly love" if you stopped those subtle, insulting, insinuating, underhanded, treacherous, lecherous attacks on the persons and intelligence of those who believe and love the Doctrine of Grace and Calvinism, and concentrated mainly on the doctrine. :BangHead:

and get emotional over it while still in a state of being Totally Depraved?

Please explain what you think.

I think you are Totally Depraved, van Helsing.

 

[OldRegular]

I am Shocked, Shocked that not all professing Christians are truly saved!

 

[sag38]

Which means that you too may not be saved! Maybe God didn't choose you and you are just fooling yourself. I'm not saying you are not (that's not for me to determine). I'm just playing off of your sarcasm.

 

[Winman]

They are spiritually dead and cannot get what their head knows into their hearts. As I said elsewhere, I have been chatting with a woman online who is a neopagan. She knew all the right stuff - everything from salvation to heaven to justification - just everything. She knew the full doctrine of grace and the full doctrine of free will as well. However, she doesn't believe a thing. As much as she knows it in her head, she'll never get it into her heart unless God changes her heart from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh.

Exactly. This is why I have been trying to show that 1 Corinthians 2:14 is misinterpreted by Calvinists. Calvinists say that the unregenerate are absolutely unable to understand scripture and spiritual matters, but common experience proves this cannot be so. Many unsaved people know and understand a great deal of scripture and spiritual matters.

As a child before I was saved I understood the story of Adam and Eve, David and Goliath, Noah's Ark, Jesus dying on the cross and many other spiritual stories in the Bible. I was not saved until I was old enough to realize that I personally was a sinner and deserving of hell, and that Jesus paid for my sins and that I must trust on him and him alone for salvation. But it wasn't like the scriptures were a foreign language I couldn't understand, I understood much of scripture but was not saved.

To say that unregenerate man is utterly incapable of understanding scripture is plain ridiculous.

 

[OldRegular]

Which means that you too may not be saved! Maybe God didn't choose you and you are just fooling yourself. I'm not saying you are not (that's not for me to determine). I'm just playing off of your sarcasm.

I have said more than once on this Forum that if GOD did not choose me then I am lost. I know myself better than anyone but GOD so I am not fooling myself.

Now be honest sag. The only reason you are not saying that I am not saved is that it might, and might only, get you kicked off the Forum. Others have strongly implied as much and still remain. But that is OK. I believe I am saved by GOD alone and I give HIM all the GLORY.

Others on this Forum have to boast of helping GOD out a little. It seems that they believe that HE was just not up to the task! I don't know whether it was because they thought their sins were too great [Which I doubt.] or whether it was simply a matter of an over inflated ego.

 

[Winman]

As much as she knows it in her head, she'll never get it into her heart unless God changes her heart from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh.

This is the Calvinist view, but the scriptures also show a man plays a part in changing his heart.

Jer 4:3 For thus saith the LORD to the men of Judah and Jerusalem, Break up your fallow ground, and sow not among thorns.
4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

Deut 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Isa 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Isa 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Calvinists and Doctrines of Grace conveniently ignore many scriptures that shows man plays a part in his salvation.

 

[kyredneck]

......I believe I am saved by GOD alone and I give HIM all the GLORY.....

This has been my attitude for years: If when I die I find myself burning in hell then I've gotten just exactly what I've deserved. On the other hand, if I find myself in glory with my Saviour, it'll be absolutely by the grace of God and nothing else.

I don't worry about it. I know in Whom I have believed. And He is good.

 

[Tom Bryant]

This has been my attitude for years: If when I die I find myself burning in hell then I've gotten just exactly what I've deserved. On the other hand, if I find myself in glory with my Saviour, it'll be absolutely by the grace of God and nothing else.

I don't worry about it. I know in Whom I have believed. And He is good.

And with that, even a non-Calvinist/non-Arminian like me, completely agrees.

 

[pinoybaptist]

This is the Calvinist view, but the scriptures also show a man plays a part in changing his heart.

Jer 4:3 For thus saith the LORD to the men of Judah and Jerusalem, Break up your fallow ground, and sow not among thorns.
4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

Deut 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Isa 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Isa 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Calvinists and Doctrines of Grace conveniently ignore many scriptures that shows man plays a part in his salvation.

And what you and Skandelon completely ignore is that these words were spoken to national Israel, the Jews, the Hebrews, the Israelites, or whatever you want to call them.
National Israel were created by God from the loins of one man, Abraham, who is a picture of Christ being the firstborn among many brethren.
The Oracles of God (these commandments you like to point to, and His entire word) were revealed to the Jews, not to the Gentiles, and absolutely not to all mankind, and therefore are binding to the Jews, just as Scripture is binding only to children of God, in both cases not to general mankind.

Yet you make the words of God applicable and binding to mankind in general, therefore effectively taking it out of context, and then you call Calvinists and DoG's WILLING ignorers of God's scripture.

Try to be a little contextual, and maybe you will look like you have something to say that is exhorting and educating.

 

[pinoybaptist]

This has been my attitude for years: If when I die I find myself burning in hell then I've gotten just exactly what I've deserved. On the other hand, if I find myself in glory with my Saviour, it'll be absolutely by the grace of God and nothing else.

I don't worry about it. I know in Whom I have believed. And He is good.

But I don't think Skandelon or winman or anyone else of the van Helsing clan understands that attitude.

 

[Winman]

And what you and Skandelon completely ignore is that these words were spoken to national Israel, the Jews, the Hebrews, the Israelites, or whatever you want to call them.
National Israel were created by God from the loins of one man, Abraham, who is a picture of Christ being the firstborn among many brethren.
The Oracles of God (these commandments you like to point to, and His entire word) were revealed to the Jews, not to the Gentiles, and absolutely not to all mankind, and therefore are binding to the Jews, just as Scripture is binding only to children of God, in both cases not to general mankind.

Yet you make the words of God applicable and binding to mankind in general, therefore effectively taking it out of context, and then you call Calvinists and DoG's WILLING ignorers of God's scripture.

Try to be a little contextual, and maybe you will look like you have something to say that is exhorting and educating.

So, you are saying there are different gospels for the Gentiles and Jews? That would have to be the case if your argument is true.

Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

If Peter were around preaching today you Calvinists and Doctrines of Gracers would be calling him a heretic and blasphemer.

Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

The same with Paul, he sternly rebukes the Jews here who would not believe the gospel? Why? Didn't Paul understand that these Jews could not possibly believe unless God regenerated them?

If Paul and Peter were around today perhaps you could straighten them out on doctrine. :laugh:

 

[pinoybaptist]

So, you are saying there are different gospels for the Gentiles and Jews? That would have to be the case if your argument is true.

No, that is not what I am saying. The gospel is good news for those to whom salvation has been authored, finished and accomplished by the only One authorized to save anyone.
You, sir, are either too dense to understand the gospel's intent, or are purposely trying to make me look ridiculous.

Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

If Peter were around preaching today you Calvinists and Doctrines of Gracers would be calling him a heretic and blasphemer.

If Peter were around today, you, at least, winman, will be thoroughly scolded for telling him he is pointing people to an ability to save themselves from the wrath of God which only Jesus can do.
READ THE SCRIPTURES WITH THE EYE OF A STUDENT, not the eye of one who wishes to find fault with others and to make them look like they were devils from the pit of hell !!

Does that Scripture say "save yourselves from the wrath of God, or from hell", or does it say "save yourselves from THIS UNTOWARD GENERATION.

Is that untoward generation still around today ?

Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
The same with Paul, he sternly rebukes the Jews here who would not believe the gospel? Why? Didn't Paul understand that these Jews could not possibly believe unless God regenerated them?

They are dead set on their religion, and therefore that generation, apart from the remnant, are rejects of God at that moment in time.
The word of God was delivered to them, and the Word of God lived in their midst, and they rejected both.
How DEAD to things spiritual can you be ?
Tell me they are alive spiritually, please ?

So, is this Scripture wrong ?
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned 1 Corinthians 2:14.

I wonder how you will make that Scripture fit your theory that natural man isn't really natural ?

If Paul and Peter were around today perhaps you could straighten them out on doctrine. :laugh:

If Paul and Peter were around today, they would probably wonder at the love we have that causes us to tolerate your mocking inspite of your obvious ignorance of Scripture.:laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[Skandelon]

But I don't think Skandelon or winman or anyone else of the van Helsing clan understands that attitude.

I'm not sure how many times we have to explain this to you:
When a Non-Calvinist, like myself, objects to the idea of "unconditional election" of a few we are not objecting because we feel God owes anyone anything!!! We object because it is unjust IN LIGHT of the biblical revelation.

Most Calvinists quickly rebut this question of injustice with a statement such as: "God would be just to condemn us all to hell." Or as one Calvinist put it, "The wonder of God's mercy and grace is NOT that He doesn't save everyone; it is that He even saves ANYONE!"

But what you all seem to miss is that this IS the very essence of what I believe, even as a non-Calvinist. God is not in any way morally obligated to save anyone because we deserve it. Again, this is a point upon which we can all agree.

However, God has obligated Himself, both morally and judicially, to save whosoever will come (believe). Not because they deserve it, but because He sent forth His Son to be a propitiation for sins of whole world, which is to be applied only through faith. His universal call to "every creature" to faith and repentance obligates him to save whosoever repents and believes. The doctrine that teaches that God only grants this ability to willingly repent and believe to a select few while appearing to call "every creature" is what causes the non-Calvinists to cry, "Foul!" (Some of this wording I stole from Allan in an earlier post because he said it better than I could)

I don't believe the Calvinistic view of God is unjust because he condemns certain people to hell. We believe the Calvinistic view of God is unjust because He offers a pardon to all mankind while only granting a few of them the ability to receive it, all the while expressing a desire for all to come to repentance and a frustration for those who remain unwilling.

It is deceptive to offer someone a gift you fully know they cannot willingly receive. Especially if you, the giver, are the one who determines the receivers natural abilities. That type of offer cannot be genuine!