Piper teaches that some Calvinists might not be Born Again.

[OldRegular]

When a Non-Calvinist, like myself, objects to the idea of "unconditional election" of a few ......

{My Bold}

When did you get authority to limit the number of the elect? Just curious!

 

[Skandelon]

{My Bold}

When did you get authority to limit the number of the elect? Just curious!

I simply meant "few" relative to the mass of those who are not elect in your system; evidenced by simple math over the years of those who died without professing faith in Christ. Oh, and there is the scripture "narrow is the road... few are those who will find it."

 

[pinoybaptist]

We believe the Calvinistic view of God is unjust because He offers a pardon to all mankind while only granting a few of them the ability to receive it, all the while expressing a desire for all to come to repentance and a frustration for those who remain unwilling.
It is deceptive to offer someone a gift you fully know they cannot willingly receive. Especially if you, the giver, are the one who determines the receivers natural abilities. That type of offer cannot be genuine

My problem with you and your clan, is that you make Calvinists and us of the Doctrine of Grace out to be despots and tyrants, and spawns of hell (for only a spawn of hell would make the Creator God out to be such as you describe us making Him).
Look at the above statement, for example.

You have yet to establish by Scripture, that the unregenerate, natural man, has the innate, God-independent ability to honor God and to love God in the way which God seeks men to do, in spirit and in truth, and the ability to do good, as God defines good, and that the fall of Adam did not alter the nature of his race, and yet you lament the right of God to grant repentance to whom He will and to extend mercy to whom He will ?

And then you mock God by telling Him how stupid He is to say He wants all to come to repentance (something which you and yours have totally taken out of its context, and yet you demand context from us) when He already knows they can't because He is the one who makes them unable or leaves them to their inability ?

[PERSONAL ATTACK SNIPPED]


So when somebody celebrates an event in which a gift is called for, you think the gift should be offered, and if it is unwanted, then the gift should be withdrawn, or maybe the intended recipient is not worthy of the gift ?

Your wife or somebody you love celebrates her birthday and you offer her a gift instead of going out, buying something you are sure she will like, and then gifting her with what you bought ?

The word "gift" occurs at least fifty times in the Bible from Old Testament to the New Testament, and I have yet to see it as OFFERED as opposed to GIVEN other than the one in Matthew 8:4 in reference to offering in accordance with a ritual.

There is NFFER OF SALVATION.
There is a GIVING OF SALVATION, A GRANTING OF IT, AND GOD DETERMINES WHO RECEIVES THAT GIFT, and no deception you employ will change that.

[PERSONAL ATTACK SNIPPED - WARNED TO WATCH YOUR LANGUAGE]

 

[pinoybaptist]

Does that Scripture say "save yourselves from the wrath of God, or from hell", or does it say "save yourselves from THIS UNTOWARD GENERATION.

So, winman, is that scripture about saving oneself from the wrath of God, or is it saving oneself from an untoward generation........of men, since only men have generations.

What's the matter ?

You kicking yourself somewhere for turning out to be the one twisting Scripture ?

 

[Skandelon]

You have yet to establish by Scripture, that the unregenerate, natural man, has the innate, God-independent ability to honor God and to love God in the way which God seeks men to do, in spirit and in truth, and the ability to do good, as God defines good, and that the fall of Adam did not alter the nature of his race

Why would I when I don't believe this. Statements like this just reveal to me that you have yet to even understand what you oppose.

You, sir, are a devil....Again, you are a lying devil.

Ok, our discussion is over.

I love you brother and I am honestly saying a prayer for you. I wish you the very best and sincerely love you as a brother in the Lord. God bless you.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Why would I when I don't believe this. Statements like this just reveal to me that you have yet to even understand what you oppose.

You're the one who came on with criticisms of what we believe as Calvinists and as DoG's.
The burden of proof is on you.
So far, all you've engaged in are innuendoes, and statements that expose your ignorance of the Doctrine and your lie that you were once a Calvinist.
I've seen guys like you in other fields of this fallen world.
Guys who say they were part of the struggles, both underground and aboveground that I've been part of against the dictatorship that once lorded it over our people.
Yet were not familiar with the concepts of the struggle, terms we used, and histories we've had.
They marched with us, yes, but they were not really members.

Ok, our discussion is over.

fine.

I love you brother and I am honestly saying a prayer for you. I wish you the very best and sincerely love you as a brother in the Lord. God bless you.

Given the way you've been misrepresenting us and what we hold to, I seriously doubt what you're saying.
You can keep your prayers to yourself.

 

[Rippon]

But most non-Cals do indeed insist that God, being God, has to give everyone a square deal.

The above is the constant refrain from many on this board.

Fairness and justness mean the same thing.

To which Allan replied:"Not in the manner you are using the words when speaking for anothers (sic)view."

What is the difference then? Haven't you ever used the phrase fair and square? Fair means not unjust. It means equitable,right or lawful.

I think the words mean the very same thing. Fair and just are as alike as faith and belief.

 

[OldRegular]

Oh, and there is the scripture "narrow is the road... few are those who will find it."

Then don't be hypocritical and blame it on the Doctrine of Sovereign Grace!

 

[FR7 Baptist]

You have yet to establish by Scripture, that the unregenerate, natural man, has the innate, God-independent ability to honor God and to love God in the way which God seeks men to do, in spirit and in truth, and the ability to do good, as God defines good, and that the fall of Adam did not alter the nature of his race,

Who one here believes that? It's not the Arminains.

 

[annsni]

I agree that there is a difference, but I don't think many of the arguments made by calvinists on this board allow for that difference.

Scripture (James) says that the demons believe that there is one God (check the context). I'm not sure we can conclude that they understand the gospel or believe it even intellectually.

The gospel is not available to demons. Jesus did not die for them, so even if they intellectually apprehend the gospel, they cannot receive it. Incidentally, would you say that the non-elect are in the same category? Jesus did not die for them and, even if they intellectually apprehend the gospel, they cannot receive it? Woah, that'd make a good thread!

Then what do we make of the NT warnings given to believers about turning from Christ and the gospel. For instance, the writer of Hebrews, writing to believers warns "Take heed that there is not in any of you an evil heart of unbelief to turn from the living God". I think it is dangerous to say "I have believed the gospel and there is no way I could ever turn away from it". Except for God's grace, any of us certainly could and would. God's grace is required for salvation and for continuance as well.

I see from this and from Allan's reply that I did not make myself clear. I didn't say that the demons can be saved and that they would choose God. I used the demons as an example of the Bible talking about those who know the facts but it doesn't make a difference. The rest of it was talking about those who know the facts of the Gospel but don't believe it. I'm sorry for the confusion.

 

[annsni]

Exactly. This is why I have been trying to show that 1 Corinthians 2:14 is misinterpreted by Calvinists. Calvinists say that the unregenerate are absolutely unable to understand scripture and spiritual matters, but common experience proves this cannot be so. Many unsaved people know and understand a great deal of scripture and spiritual matters.

As a child before I was saved I understood the story of Adam and Eve, David and Goliath, Noah's Ark, Jesus dying on the cross and many other spiritual stories in the Bible. I was not saved until I was old enough to realize that I personally was a sinner and deserving of hell, and that Jesus paid for my sins and that I must trust on him and him alone for salvation. But it wasn't like the scriptures were a foreign language I couldn't understand, I understood much of scripture but was not saved.

To say that unregenerate man is utterly incapable of understanding scripture is plain ridiculous.

There is a very big difference between understanding the "knowledge" of it and having it affect the heart. As I said, this woman that I've been talking to knows EVERYTHING about the Gospel and what affected us in a very different way is doing absolutely nothing to her. She even said that she'd like to believe it but she just doesn't. That's so telling to me.

 

[annsni]

This is the Calvinist view, but the scriptures also show a man plays a part in changing his heart.

Jer 4:3 For thus saith the LORD to the men of Judah and Jerusalem, Break up your fallow ground, and sow not among thorns.
4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

Deut 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Isa 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.


Isa 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Calvinists and Doctrines of Grace conveniently ignore many scriptures that shows man plays a part in his salvation.

It is interesting that the only support you can find for your belief is from the Old Testament instructions to the nation of Israel.

 

[annsni]

This has been my attitude for years: If when I die I find myself burning in hell then I've gotten just exactly what I've deserved. On the other hand, if I find myself in glory with my Saviour, it'll be absolutely by the grace of God and nothing else.

I don't worry about it. I know in Whom I have believed. And He is good.

Amen and amen!

 

[pinoybaptist]

Who one here believes that? It's not the Arminains.

Ask your friend, he does.

 

[pinoybaptist]

My problem with you and your clan, is that you make Calvinists and us of the Doctrine of Grace out to be despots and tyrants, and spawns of hell (for only a spawn of hell would make the Creator God out to be such as you describe us making Him).
Look at the above statement, for example.

You have yet to establish by Scripture, that the unregenerate, natural man, has the innate, God-independent ability to honor God and to love God in the way which God seeks men to do, in spirit and in truth, and the ability to do good, as God defines good, and that the fall of Adam did not alter the nature of his race, and yet you lament the right of God to grant repentance to whom He will and to extend mercy to whom He will ?

And then you mock God by telling Him how stupid He is to say He wants all to come to repentance (something which you and yours have totally taken out of its context, and yet you demand context from us) when He already knows they can't because He is the one who makes them unable or leaves them to their inability ?

[PERSONAL ATTACK SNIPPED]


So when somebody celebrates an event in which a gift is called for, you think the gift should be offered, and if it is unwanted, then the gift should be withdrawn, or maybe the intended recipient is not worthy of the gift ?

Your wife or somebody you love celebrates her birthday and you offer her a gift instead of going out, buying something you are sure she will like, and then gifting her with what you bought ?

The word "gift" occurs at least fifty times in the Bible from Old Testament to the New Testament, and I have yet to see it as OFFERED as opposed to GIVEN other than the one in Matthew 8:4 in reference to offering in accordance with a ritual.

There is NFFER OF SALVATION.
There is a GIVING OF SALVATION, A GRANTING OF IT, AND GOD DETERMINES WHO RECEIVES THAT GIFT, and no deception you employ will change that.

[PERSONAL ATTACK SNIPPED - WARNED TO WATCH YOUR LANGUAGE]

warning noted.

 

[FR7 Baptist]

Ask your friend, he does.

I don't know what he believes. I'm just saying Arminans don't believe what you implied in your other post.

 

[pinoybaptist]

I don't know what he believes. I'm just saying Arminans don't believe what you implied in your other post.

Those two don't seem to deny they are Arminians, so I guess they're saying that's what Arminians believe.
If you say otherwise, then fine.
You don't believe that way, they do.
And just for the record, I believe you, if you are a classical Arminian.
The modern Arminian, on the other hand, misrepresent what Jacobus believed.

 

[Allan]

And just for the record, I believe you, if you are a classical Arminian.
The modern Arminian, on the other hand, misrepresent what Jacobus believed.

On this I agree but I believe it is more due to a lack of historical knowledge.
Most modern Arminians are Wesleyian Arminians and not Classical/Reformed Arminian which was what Jacobus believed.

 

[Rippon]

...all people are given or revealed by God spiritual truths which they understand but they must either believe or not. If they will believe these revealed truths then we know that God will/is sending someone to reveal the fullness of truths in form of the gospel message - of which those truths speak to.

According to Romans chapters 1 and 2 they will not accept God's truths and still they are without excuse.

You apparently believe that some who have never heard the Gospel will open themselves up to God in some way -- the first two chapters in Romans do not back you up there.

And you're in the realm of sheer speculation when you say that God will send someone to reveal the full truth --i.e. the Gospel, if they believe the law written in their hearts.

 

[Allan]

According to Romans chapters 1 and 2 they will not accept God's truths and still they are without excuse.

Sorry, but your assumption here is pure speculation - that Romans 1 and 2 is about what All men always do, though you are correct in that it reflects all men are without excuse. Why? Because reaches out to every man revealing us all spirital truths, and that we, by God, also have a conscience. It is a funny thing though, even if your theory on Romans 1 and2 is correct, it still stands in direct contradiction with other aspects of your view... ie. that is in fact God dealing with these men and revealing truth them, those NOT His own and that they do in fact understand those spiritual truths though they choose to reject it.

You apparently believe that some who have never heard the Gospel will open themselves up to God in some way -- the first two chapters in Romans do not back you up there.

For some reason it seems to be almost an impossibility for you to not only grasp what someone else is saying, but that you also have a real inability to relay back accurately what you claim to understand the other person is saying or holding to.

And you're in the realm of sheer speculation when you say that God will send someone to reveal the full truth --i.e. the Gospel, if they believe the law written in their hearts.

My point proven yet again. Enjoy your night.