Let me modify this to also state:
However there is another group of Arminians (that is quickly becoming the a majority) that really hold to neither of the core elements of these two views but goes much further a field and off into the distant woods
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Piper teaches that some Calvinists might not be Born Again.
- Thread starter Skandelon
- Start date
Let me modify this to also state:
However there is another group of Arminians (that is quickly becoming the a majority) that really hold to neither of the core elements of these two views but goes much further a field and off into the distant woods
Pinoy, it appears you are developing a snarl
, perhaps you should slow down and smell the roses .
Pinoy, it appears you are developing a snarl
Since winman calls us DoG's, there it is, a vampire dawg DoG.
I am not twisting or wresting scripture whatsoever. If you think Peter was preaching to these Jews he had just told to "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" to save themselves from their fellow Jews, then you cannot follow a conversation. His preaching had one aim, to show these Jews that Jesus was indeed the promised Christ and that they trust in him for salvation.
When he said, "Save yourselves from this untoward generation" he was telling them not to be like their rebellious brethren who rejected Christ.
And Matthew Henry (a Calvinist) agrees.
So, you see, Henry here easily understands what Peter was saying, he was telling these listeners not to be rebellious like those Jews who rejected Christ and would perish.
But the fact is, Peter told them to do something, and that is to "save yourselves" which shows a man plays a part in salvation. Man cannot save himself, man does not have any power whatsoever. But God commands us to come to Christ so that he may save us. If we do not come, then he will not save.
John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Notice that Jesus did not say these men cannot come to him, he says they "will not" come to him.
What you do not understand is that coming to Christ is an act of submission. It is acknowledging that we do not have the power or ability to save ourselves. Let me give you an example from real life.
Let's say you are trying to twist the lid off a jar of mayonaise. But it is on there tight. You try with all your might to twist it off but cannot. Your brother says, "Here, let me try." You do not want to admit that your brother might be stronger than you, so at first you refuse. You continue to attempt to remove the lid but are not able no matter how hard you try. Finally, you give up and give the jar of mayonaise to your brother. He easily twists it off. Now, this is a little embarrassing, because no man likes to think that another man is stronger or more able than he. But sometimes this is the case whether we like it or not.
And this is the case with salvation. Men are proud, men think themselves good. Ask almost anyone if they believe they are going to heaven and the vast majority will say "yes". Ask them why and they will almost always say "because I am a good person". So men naturally believe themselves good and worthy of heaven on their own merit. It takes an honest man to admit that in fact he is a sinner and not worthy of heaven, and that he can in no way save himself. It is when a man submits to this truth that he will come to Christ for salvation. So it is an act of submission.
You just cannot get that.
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I didn't say that Romans 1 and 2 concerns all people -- you do not comprehend clear English. It concerns those who do not have the Gospel.
I didn't call them spiritual truths as such.
No theory at all -- fact.
Again, I wouldn't call natural revelation and the work of the conscience spiritual truths as such. I don't see the contradiction you apparently sense. The natural revelation/conscience has capability of saving them.
You had said: "All people are given or revealed by God spiritual truths which they understand but they must either believe or not. If they will believe these revealed truths then we know that God will/is sending someone to reveal the fullness of truths in the form of the gospel message - of which those truths speak to."
I had replied : "According to Romans chapters 1 and 2 they will not accept God's truths and still they are without excuse."
I went on to say :"You apparently believe that some who have never heard the Gospel will open themselves up to God in some way -- the first two chapters in Romans do not back you up there."
I then said: "And you're in the realm of pure speculation when you say that God will send someone to reveal the full truth -- i.e. the Gospel, if they believe the law written in their hearts."
On the contrary, it's all there in balck and white. Do you wish to reverse your position, since you claim to deny what you plainly said earlier?
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Paul, I don't know what "friend" Pinoy is referring to, but I'm not aware of anyone who believes what he said.
winman said:
Nice sermon.
Except you're way off the mark.
If I had not been sure that it is because you are ignorant of Scripture (though you quote it), I would have said you were deliberately mixing truth and lies in order to promote something which is unscriptural.
Even your example folds up and crumbles because the salvation Peter is speaking about is not of the eternal salvation which Christ authored, and which you can't seem to understand.
After Christ redeems you, and when the Spirit regenerates you and open your eyes to your condition, then you are under obligation to repent, and to these Jews, Peter was saying "separate yourselves", that is, get out from among them, "save yourselves from this untoward generation", that cry is not unto eternal salvation. It is to timely salvation.
Until you understand, and accept, that eternal salvation is ALL OF CHRIST, NONE OF MAN, not preconditioned on ANY ACTION on the part of man because this eternal salvation of ALL HIS PEOPLE was decided on BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD long before ANYONE ever did right or wrong, then any attempt to discredit the Doctrine of Grace will blow up in your face, and any illustration you make will be weak and laughable.
In the quotes above, I highlighted what was untrue, and the green one is especially untrue.
Christ saved His people whether they come to Him or not.
You know why ?
Because He is the One who came to them.
And additional food for thought:
If you say Christ is Savior and Redeemer, then is He still in the business of saving and redeeming (I am talking about the eternal aspects), or IS HE DONE according to Hebrews 9:12, and 5:10.
If He is done, then His action is complete.
As in Genesis, He took a look at what was done, and said: it was very good.
If His action is complete, then no amount of "coming to Him" unless one is elect from the foundation of the world, will do.
If He is not done, then you need to rewrite the Bible, or at least exclude all Scriptures pointing to the finished task at Calvary.
Same old Rippon, unable to hold a civil conversation without all your snide remarks.
So you contend that those who will get the gospel have no law written in the hearts/Conscience and that God does not reveal His spiritual truths to them? - You did say this only regards those who do not have the gospel.
There is nothing else they can be called. First, scripture states these truths have to be revealed by God.. IOW - man can not come to this knowledge apart from the direct influence of God bringing man to know these things. We see these things, according to Romans 1, consist of 3 main things - 1. Sin, 2. righteousness, 3. The judgment to come.
We also find in scripture this work of revealing/covicting is the very work of the Holy Spirit being sent 'into the world' and apart from Him doing this, man would never come to this knowledge. Ergo - it is spiritual truth.
Well, we differ on your opinion of this 'fact'.
Please show where I ever stated that this revelation has the 'capability of saving them'? Or even suggested it. The gospel is the message whereby men are eternally saved.
:laugh: You have no idea what you are talking about because you 'are not' listening.
Please note the last quote, whereby I show that these revealed truths are not enough to save, though they are enough to condemn. Yes, we know the gospel of Jesus Christ will be sent to them who believe these truths because we know that not only is God working on them by revealing these spiritual truths but since He IS working on them and knowing their hearts, we also know He already has the gospel on its way to them because He knows and has planned all things.
I think you need a little break.
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Onlybygrace
New Member
There is a huge difference between theological/biblical truth being part of intellectual/philosophical makeup and you having placed personal trust in Jesus Christ.
You can believe Jesus died for the elect but do you believe he died for you because you are a sinner? You can believe that His sacrifice is sufficient and efficient for atonement, even for yours, but have you personally come to Him and asked for forgiveness?
Becoming a Christian is a meeting of knowing, believing and doing not one or the other!
You can believe Jesus died for the elect but do you believe he died for you because you are a sinner? You can believe that His sacrifice is sufficient and efficient for atonement, even for yours, but have you personally come to Him and asked for forgiveness?
Becoming a Christian is a meeting of knowing, believing and doing not one or the other!
Then let me ask you. What are you going to do with people who lived centuries before Christ who never knew about placing personal trust in Him, who populated "all nations, tongues, and kindreds" of the earth ?
Consign them to hell, and rewrite that part of Scripture where John says he saw multitudes in heaven from "all nations, tongues, and kindreds" ?
If that is so, then which theological system of thought damns more souls to hell. The one which says it is God and God only, who is a God of mercy, who determined who His people are based on His choice and on His kindness ?
Or is it the one who says man is the one who chooses God and is therefore responsible for his own eternal destiny, and this choosing must of necessity include a placing of personal trust in Christ ?
Even more so, I believe, and every elect child of God believes, whether he is Arminian or Calvinist or a DoG, this truth, HOWEVER, not every child of God will be taught that truth.
Do you believe all babies go to hell ?
Do you believe that a mentally challenged individual will have to have the capacity to grasp that truth or else ?
Do you believe one who once knew this truth but suddenly comes to the grip of debilitating mental disease must retain this truth, or else ?
now it is my turn to imply that you are basing your salvation on your ability to grasp theological concepts of which faith is.
You see, that's the thing, when one points a finger in accusation or derision at somebody, one had better beware because three fingers may be pointing right back at you about the same accusation.
Onlybygrace said:
You have put so much addition to the supremacy of Christ, the sufficiency of the cross, and the efficacy of His blood, I wonder on what you base your monicker.
Onlybygrace said:
No. I can put so much mental assent on everything I hear in the pulpit, I can shed buckets of tears for my sins, I can stand up every Wednesdays and Sunday nights and give my testimony of how evil I was and how Christ changed me, the bottom line is still: does Christ know me ?
Remember those who said "Lord, Lord have we not done miracles in your name and in your name cast out devils.......?". They knew who Christ was, they called Him by His title "Lord", and they knew they had to do what they did in His Name.
What did Christ say His answer will be ?
I never knew you........
It was His knowledge of and about His people that counted because He was the One who chose them for His heaven and for His kingdom.
That is how one becomes a Christian, which really means "OF" Christ.
One became a Christian in eternity past when the Great Three in One chose their people out of the fallen race of Adam.
Untrue. All of those people under only natural revelation, the law written on their hearts, and their conscience will reject the witness. So there will be be no follow-up by the Lord, as I have had to say repeatedly. Their hearts are evil. Do believe that some people under these circumstances have good hearts?
Hebrews 11 explains what happened with them. They also put their faith and trust in the Messiah and thus they were saved.
No, Annsni.
With all due respects.
Hebrews 11 was not speaking of those I am referring to.
There were other peoples, tribes, and nations who were part of mankind which everybody says God loved in their totality.
Those in Hebrews 11 were Biblical people.
The earth was round even then, and basically had the same continents, sub-continents, and islands that we have now. Basically.
These were populated with men and women, with their own religions, gods, politics, cultures, and other sociological systems and sub-systems.
The poster was calling for a person, an individual, to "place his own personal faith in Christ". Here is what he said: "There is a huge difference between theological/biblical truth being part of intellectual/philosophical makeup and you having placed personal trust in Jesus Christ."
Placing a personal trust in Christ is a concept which nobody even knew about, much less preached about, until the last few centuries. I mean, yes, people did that even before it was preached about it, we have the witness of
Christian martyrs down through the centuries.
So if we had a straight line, and the numbers on the straight line represented humanity, with zero being the cross (which IS the central focal point of human history) are we going to say that in as far as God redeeming His people, only those in the positive side of the cross, the positive numbers if you will, are saved and redeemed, and everyone else before zero, the negatives, are in hell ?
Do you see where that concept of placing on man the responsibility for his redemption/salvation (two things that cannot be separated) by his "acceptance of and personal faith in Jesus Christ" actually contradicts the grace and mercy of the Savior ?
continuing the above post, Ann.
I know you and I belong to a similar soteriology, wouldn't we ask, what of babies, or senile men who have never heard the gospel and therefore are unable to trust Christ, or those who lose their trust because of various types of trials and tribulations, and such things ?
Are we going to say babies' cases are different, and senile peoples' are different, etc., etc. ? Are there different ways of salvation (eternal) in the Scripture ? Don't we sing some thru the waters, some thru the flood, some thru the fire, but ALL through the blood ?
There's only one way according to that song: the Blood of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Trusting Christ cannot be a prerequisite to eternal redemption and to eternal salvation, because there is no pre-requisite, no requirement of the sinner.
All the requirement was placed on the shoulders of Christ, and He met them all.
Trusting Christ is a pre-requisite to gospel, or timely salvation, which has nothing to do with eternal salvation other than an affirmation of one's eternal standing, the same as obedience to Christ is.
But to make this a requirement to be a part of the redeemed is to EXCLUDE those who have been unable to meet this requirement because they lived before the time of its teaching, and to EXCLUDE those who are not able to meet this requirement because no preacher is able to get to them for various factors and reasons.
This is why eternal salvation is all OF the Lord, because He is merciful, and in His mercy He chose an innumerable (to man) number of souls in Christ in eternity past.
Now, somebody with Rev before his name said this school of soteriology is ungodly.
Considering the number of souls excluded by the requirement of trust and personal faith in order to be eternally saved, which is ungodly ?
woof, giggle, giggle.
I know you and I belong to a similar soteriology, wouldn't we ask, what of babies, or senile men who have never heard the gospel and therefore are unable to trust Christ, or those who lose their trust because of various types of trials and tribulations, and such things ?
Are we going to say babies' cases are different, and senile peoples' are different, etc., etc. ? Are there different ways of salvation (eternal) in the Scripture ? Don't we sing some thru the waters, some thru the flood, some thru the fire, but ALL through the blood ?
There's only one way according to that song: the Blood of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Trusting Christ cannot be a prerequisite to eternal redemption and to eternal salvation, because there is no pre-requisite, no requirement of the sinner.
All the requirement was placed on the shoulders of Christ, and He met them all.
Trusting Christ is a pre-requisite to gospel, or timely salvation, which has nothing to do with eternal salvation other than an affirmation of one's eternal standing, the same as obedience to Christ is.
But to make this a requirement to be a part of the redeemed is to EXCLUDE those who have been unable to meet this requirement because they lived before the time of its teaching, and to EXCLUDE those who are not able to meet this requirement because no preacher is able to get to them for various factors and reasons.
This is why eternal salvation is all OF the Lord, because He is merciful, and in His mercy He chose an innumerable (to man) number of souls in Christ in eternity past.
Now, somebody with Rev before his name said this school of soteriology is ungodly.
Considering the number of souls excluded by the requirement of trust and personal faith in order to be eternally saved, which is ungodly ?
woof, giggle, giggle.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Rippon, its not a question as to whether their heart is good, nor not. It's a question as to whether their heart has become hardened, "otherwise they might see with their eyes and hear with their ears, understand with their heart, and be converted-and I [God] would heal them."
Act 28: 24 Some were persuaded by what he said, but others did not believe. 25 Disagreeing among themselves, they began to leave after Paul made one statement: "The Holy Spirit correctly spoke through the prophet Isaiah to your forefathers 26 when He said, Go to this people and say: 'You will listen and listen, yet never understand; and you will look and look, yet never perceive. 27 For this people's heart has grown callous, their ears are hard of hearing, and they have shut their eyes; otherwise they might see with their eyes and hear with their ears, understand with their heart, and be converted-and I would heal them.' 28 Therefore, let it be known to you that this saving work of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will listen!"
Those in the Old Testament who were saved WERE saved by the grace of God but still salvation is through Jesus Christ. They still needed to look forward to the Lamb of God who would take away the sins of the world. None were saved apart from knowing God and putting their faith and trust in Him for their salvation. Yes, they didn't know the Lamb's name but they knew what was to come. I agree that if we stand on man's choice, then no one outside of the covenant would be saved but I also don't think that people were saved outside of Christ.
Well, outside of the Gospel there is no salvation. However, we don't know how God teaches the Gospel to those who are not able to understand our common language in the way we are familiar with. For instance, the men and women of our church who are severely mentally handicapped cannot grasp a lot of what we say - but we do not know what the Holy Spirit has allowed them to understand either from us or from God himself. I can't begin to claim to understand it all - how babies can be saved, how the mentally disabled can be saved or even how those who truly have never heard the Gospel in this world can be saved but I do know God. I know God's character is loving and just. I know He pursues people and people come to know Him. So I can rest in that without being able to understand it all. But I also know that He keeps to His Word and His Word says that no one comes to the father but through Jesus Christ. Somehow, some way, Jesus is revealed to those who will come to Him and it is the grace through faith that is the vehicle by which God saves them.
Hello annsni,
I don't think we have spoken before and I don't wish to impose; but in reading the above I felt your "pain" so to speak. (I know, the phrase is overly used, but it seem appropriate here.)
I can tell you are under a conviction for this woman.
IMO God does soften hearts:
Acts 16:14 (King James Version)
14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
God does make hearts open to receiving His love and message.
So the question is on what basis does God do this marvelous thing?
IMO He does it on the basis of His knowing the heart.
Acts 1:24 (King James Version)
24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
Acts 15:8 (King James Version)
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
I really don't wish to get caught up in the direction of discussion of this thread; but I hope the passages above give you some comfort in your dealing with the woman mentioned.
I do believe God opens some hearts and not others; but I feel He does it on the basis of His divine foreknowledge of that heart and not upon an eternal degree.