Piper teaches that some Calvinists might not be Born Again.

[Winman]

Nice sermon.
Except you're way off the mark.
If I had not been sure that it is because you are ignorant of Scripture (though you quote it), I would have said you were deliberately mixing truth and lies in order to promote something which is unscriptural.

Even your example folds up and crumbles because the salvation Peter is speaking about is not of the eternal salvation which Christ authored, and which you can't seem to understand.

After Christ redeems you, and when the Spirit regenerates you and open your eyes to your condition, then you are under obligation to repent, and to these Jews, Peter was saying "separate yourselves", that is, get out from among them, "save yourselves from this untoward generation", that cry is not unto eternal salvation. It is to timely salvation.

So, I am ignorant and mixing truth with lies?

It is you that does not understand scripture. You must repent before you can receive the Spirit as Peter himself preached.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Peter told these men to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of their sins and THEN they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

It is not I that twists the clear teaching of scripture.

 

[pinoybaptist]

So, I am ignorant

Yes.

and mixing truth with lies?

No. I did not say that. you said it. read the post again.

It is you that does not understand scripture. You must repent before you can receive the Spirit as Peter himself preached. Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Peter told these men to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of their sins and THEN they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

And I do not deny that. It is written. Peter preached it. What I am saying is repentance is an act that comes after regeneration, not before. Repentance is a change of mind. You change your mind because you have been born of the Spirit of God. You do not change (repent) in order to be born of the Spirit. This requirement is for those to whom the gospel has come. It is an instruction that leads to gospel salvation for those for whom eternal salvation has been given thru Christ.

It is not I that twists the clear teaching of scripture.

Then the only other description will be that you are incorrectly dividing the Scriptures.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Those in the Old Testament who were saved WERE saved by the grace of God but still salvation is through Jesus Christ. They still needed to look forward to the Lamb of God who would take away the sins of the world. None were saved apart from knowing God and putting their faith and trust in Him for their salvation. Yes, they didn't know the Lamb's name but they knew what was to come. I agree that if we stand on man's choice, then no one outside of the covenant would be saved but I also don't think that people were saved outside of Christ.

Of course no one is saved outside of Christ.
But the salvation of His people is totally dependent on Him.
He saved them because He loved them first, before they loved Him.
He knew them first before they knew of Him.
There is nothing in Scripture that says (1) the efficacy of His blood and its effect on the sin of His people depends on them placing their trust on Him, or (2) that their names were written on the book of Life of the Lamb because they placed their trust in Him.
Do you see where I am going ?

His salvation of His people were entirely His choice and action and did not depend on their geographical location, their race (Jew or Gentile), their language, or their profession of faith in Him.

This truth is implied in Jesus' own words in Matthew 7:23 to those who called Him Lord, and professed to know Him and cast out demons and worked miracles in His Name. They knew Him but He never knew them.

And to think that now, in our time, according to Scripture, when eternal salvation has already been authored (Hebrews 5:9-10), and eternal redemption already obtained (Hebrews 9:12) the unavoidable conclusion is that all to whom these two already finished actions by the Savior and Redeemer pertain are already under the benefit of these finished actions.

Therefore the statement by the original poster is untrue and incorrect in as far as eternal salvation and eternal redemption is concerned, however, faith, repentance, and trust in Christ are prerequisites to timely salvation, and we come to this conclusion by correctly dividing the Scripture, with Christ as the Only reference point (His finished work and all His attributes and character) and by remaining within the historical, theological, cultural and other contexts (?) when reading Scripture.

 

[Winman]

His salvation of His people were entirely His choice and action and did not depend on their geographical location, their race (Jew or Gentile), their language, or their profession of faith in Him.

So you are saying Jesus has chosen to save people that do not even place faith in him? Unreal.

 

[annsni]

Hello annsni,
I don't think we have spoken before and I don't wish to impose; but in reading the above I felt your "pain" so to speak. (I know, the phrase is overly used, but it seem appropriate here.)
I can tell you are under a conviction for this woman.

IMO God does soften hearts:

Acts 16:14 (King James Version)
14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

God does make hearts open to receiving His love and message.
So the question is on what basis does God do this marvelous thing?
IMO He does it on the basis of His knowing the heart.

Acts 1:24 (King James Version)
24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

Acts 15:8 (King James Version)
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

I really don't wish to get caught up in the direction of discussion of this thread; but I hope the passages above give you some comfort in your dealing with the woman mentioned.

I do believe God opens some hearts and not others; but I feel He does it on the basis of His divine foreknowledge of that heart and not upon an eternal degree.

Thank you for the verses. I do agree with you that God opens some hearts and some He doesn't and that it is based upon the foreknowledge of that heart - but I think we come from a different place of understanding the foreknowledge. But that's OK. All I can do with this woman is continue to speak truth and not bend on it. I will not try to force her to say a prayer or beat her over the head until she finally seems to submit. I've seen too many of those - and yet I've seen the hearts that are broken by God even before they hear the Gospel and when they hear truth, there is nothing for them BUT to submit. At this time, this woman is not there. I don't know that she ever will but it shows me so clearly that there are those who can read the Bible, know the Gospel and even be able to show it to others - yet they cannot and will not believe it in themselves to be able to come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.

 

[annsni]

So, I am ignorant and mixing truth with lies?

It is you that does not understand scripture. You must repent before you can receive the Spirit as Peter himself preached.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Peter told these men to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of their sins and THEN they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

It is not I that twists the clear teaching of scripture.

You do realize that you are taking an event in the very early history of the church, when the Holy Spirit was just beginning to come upon the believers and making it a doctrine for the remainder of history? That is like saying that in order to know we have the Holy Spirit, we must have tongues of fire come down on us. But those at Pentacost received the Holy Spirit, went out to preach the gospel, there were those who heard and asked what they should do. They were not yet saved at that point. But we must not take one event - at the very first time the Holy Spirit began to indwell men - to make a doctrine. Looking at all of Scripture, we see that men and women received the Holy Spirit BEFORE baptism. Acts 10:44-48 shows just that.

 

[Winman]

You do realize that you are taking an event in the very early history of the church, when the Holy Spirit was just beginning to come upon the believers and making it a doctrine for the remainder of history? That is like saying that in order to know we have the Holy Spirit, we must have tongues of fire come down on us. But those at Pentacost received the Holy Spirit, went out to preach the gospel, there were those who heard and asked what they should do. They were not yet saved at that point. But we must not take one event - at the very first time the Holy Spirit began to indwell men - to make a doctrine. Looking at all of Scripture, we see that men and women received the Holy Spirit BEFORE baptism. Acts 10:44-48 shows just that.

Acts 10:44-48 does indeed teach that these people received the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. But it does not teach that they received the Holy Spirit before repenting and believing. Huge difference.

In my earlier post I said you have to "repent" before you receive the Holy Spirit, and I stand by that. You cannot show anywhere in scripture where a person ever received the Holy Spirit before believing.

Look at this passage, what is the first thing you see? You see them hearing the word of God.

Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Later on we are told they believed.

Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

In the very next chapter Peter confirms that these Gentiles received the Holy Spirit in the very same manner as the Jews, upon believing.

Acts 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

You will always see this order in salvation in scripture:

#1 Hear the word of God
#2 Believe the word of God
#3 Receive the Holy Spirit

And this is shown expressly in Ephesians 1:13

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

It doesn't get much clearer than this, Paul says these persons first heard the gospel, afterward believed, and then after that received the Spirit.

It is shown several other places in scripture.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Here Paul asks these believers how they received the Spirit. Was it by the works of the law? No. Was it through hearing God's word and believing? Yes.

Show me anywhere in scripture where this order is not shown. You will not be able to do so.

 

[olegig]

All I can do with this woman is continue to speak truth and not bend on it.

I agree, and thats all any of us can do. Just continue to witness to her and strive to protect our personal witness.
The Holy Spirit will do the rest.

 

[pinoybaptist]

So you are saying Jesus has chosen to save people that do not even place faith in him? Unreal.

What is unreal is your insistence in incorrectly dividing the word and adding the works of believing, faith, repentance, and discipleship to an act of and by God which He completed without help from any human being, an act of love and mercy which although selective in that He chose whom to redeem and exclusive in that it does not cover those for whom His blood was not shed, yet nevertheless is an act of mercy and grace directed to a race which He had no obligation at all to redeem, in part or in whole, unless you have Scriptures to prove He is under obligation to redeem a humanity which by an act of its federal head rejected Him.

You are unreal, and absolutely incorrectly dividing the word of God in order to accomodate your theology that after all the pains and sufferings that the Son of God had gone through, he really did not redeem anyone or finish any work without the cooperative repentance and faith of the vile sinner.

 

[olegig]

The Bible itself states belief and faith are not a work.

Romans 4:5 (King James Version)
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

 

[pinoybaptist]

The Bible itself states belief and faith are not a work.

Romans 4:5 (King James Version)
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

And there are two verses that say otherwise. So, the truth is in there somewhere, and a correct division of the word is called for.


1 Thessalonians 1:3
Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
Read 1 Thessalonians 1

2 Thessalonians 1:11 KJV
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

 

[olegig]

And there are two verses that say otherwise. So, the truth is in there somewhere, and a correct division of the word is called for.


1 Thessalonians 1:3
Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
Read 1 Thessalonians 1

2 Thessalonians 1:11 KJV
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

I agree a correct division of the Word is called for and sometimes this even means a correct division of a particular word.

IMO to properly sort this out, one should first realize there are two faiths at work in the NT, one of man and the other of Christ.
One can be seen as man's personal faith in Christ, as in the above two passages, and one is the Faith of Christ which is the totally free gift.

Certainly, after salvation, we should all strive to increase our personal faith in Christ by constantly looking to Him and away from the things of the world.
However our efforts in this regard have nothing to do with our initial salvation or our security in salvation, for they have to do with our fellowship with the Lord.

Our initial salvation and our security in salvation was made possible by the Faith of Christ and demonstrated by His submission to the cross.

 

[Onlybygrace]

Pinoybaptist...Gosh thats a really big response to my really small post but anys here are some scriptures to begin with:

Acts 4:12 "Salvation is found in no other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved."

John 14:6 "Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life NO MAN COMETH TO THE FATHER ACCEPT THROUGH ME"

no man...no man in the past no man in the present and no man in the future.
The book of romans explains that God has given general revelation to all men so that none have an excuse to say that they did not know there was a creator God but men have willingly rejected God's revealed image of himself and chose to worship idols instead. I believe that if we respond to general revelation God will sovereignly give us an opportunity to be exposed to special revelation concerning the person of Christ.

As for babies and people with mental handicaps I believe God judges them as innocents based on the fact that they have not reached an age of accountability...which He alone knows for each individual. The prophet told David that his deceased child was in paradise.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Pinoybaptist...Gosh thats a really big response to my really small post but anys here are some scriptures to begin with:

Acts 4:12 "Salvation is found in no other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved."

John 14:6 "Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life NO MAN COMETH TO THE FATHER ACCEPT THROUGH ME"

no man...no man in the past no man in the present and no man in the future.
The book of romans explains that God has given general revelation to all men so that none have an excuse to say that they did not know there was a creator God but men have willingly rejected God's revealed image of himself and chose to worship idols instead. I believe that if we respond to general revelation God will sovereignly give us an opportunity to be exposed to special revelation concerning the person of Christ.

As for babies and people with mental handicaps I believe God judges them as innocents based on the fact that they have not reached an age of accountability...which He alone knows for each individual. The prophet told David that his deceased child was in paradise.

okay, thanks for the friendly rebuke.
I do get a little caffeinated at times.
But not to worry about it, nothing personal.:flower::thumbsup:

 

[Onlybygrace]

pinoybaptist said

What is unreal is your insistence in incorrectly dividing the word and adding the works of believing, faith, repentance, and discipleship to an act of and by God which He completed without help from any human being, an act of love and mercy which although selective in that He chose whom to redeem and exclusive in that it does not cover those for whom His blood was not shed, yet nevertheless is an act of mercy and grace directed to a race which He had no obligation at all to redeem, in part or in whole, unless you have Scriptures to prove He is under obligation to redeem a humanity which by an act of its federal head rejected Him.

You are unreal, and absolutely incorrectly dividing the word of God in order to accomodate your theology that after all the pains and sufferings that the Son of God had gone through, he really did not redeem anyone or finish any work without the cooperative repentance and faith of the vile sinner.

no one is saying that salvation is not a work of GOD my friend.

No one is saying that our actions save us.

But the bible does call us to certain actions which are issued in the active imperitive in the context of receiving salvation.

REPENT...BELIEVE...COME FOLLOW

It is your aspiration to be argumentative and your incapability of opening your mind and ears up to the comments of others that causes you to rush headlong into fruitless, foundationless and most often futile berations of other posters. If you took 10 seconds to ask and to try and understand before being presumptious and jumping to conclusions you would have realised that I regard the human action within the conversion process as being outward proof of the veracity of God's inward work and not a contributing factor to salvation. Thus John in the book of First John gives us proofs as seen through our own behaviour and actions of the genuiness of our salvation.

When I am able to place my trust personally in Christ it is only because He has brought me to that place, enabled me through His grace and given me the faith with which to believe in Him. It is evidence of and not a basis for salvation.

 

[Onlybygrace]

oops only saw your other post now...I think my other one was a little harsh...sorry pinoybaptist

 

[annsni]

okay, thanks for the friendly rebuke.
I do get a little caffeinated at times.
But not to worry about it, nothing personal.:flower::thumbsup:

I think it's time to get you on decaf Pinoy.

 

[pinoybaptist]

oops only saw your other post now...I think my other one was a little harsh...sorry pinoybaptist

don't worry about it, bro.

I think it's time to get you on decaf Pinoy.

I think you're right, ann.

:1_grouphug:

 

[HankD]

I don't disagree...but let me press this further.

If someone is "spiritually dead" and an enemy of God, how does he come to a point that he would even "spout" the right answers or passionately claim to believe truth? Shouldn't he be repulsed by these things? Shouldn't he not even be able to "see, hear, or understand" them?

Maybe someone already cited this passage?

2 Corinthinas 11

13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.​

HankD​

 

[HankD]

Just so everyone will know and FWIW, I'm not accusing anyone in particular in my previous post just making a point from Scripture.

Here is another in a similar vein:

Matthew 7

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

Noteworthy is that Jesus did not say "some" or "a few" but "many".​

As a final note, their condition is not based upon their doctrine but Jesus statement "I never knew you" and the evidence of this fact - their works (ye that work iniquity).

HankD​