Repentance for Salvation?

[swaimj]

He repented. Jesus made it clear that if a man says "no" but then repents and does it, that this is obedience (Matthew 21:29).

But the repentance and the commitment to Christ, according to LS, comes at the time of salvation. How can a person who has repented of every sin and committed everything to Christ later say to Christ "not so, Lord".

 

[swaimj]

The purpose of the poll, is simply to determine how many believe in LS, not who believes in a particular man's interpretation of it. So the simple statement serves the purpose.

I think the problem with your thinking here is that many people who do not hold specifically to LS would use that exact language.

 

[Havensdad]

I think the problem with your thinking here is that many people who do not hold specifically to LS would use that exact language.

Anyone who believes we turn from sin, to Christ for salvation, believes in Lordship Salvation, whether or not they wish to call it that.

 

[webdog]

Anyone who believes we turn from sin, to Christ for salvation, believes in Lordship Salvation, whether or not they wish to call it that.

I missed the memo where you were appointed spokesperson.

 

[Havensdad]

I missed the memo where you were appointed spokesperson.

Webdog,

This is the definition given in every book I have read on the issue (or at least, the common theme). Please note it is EXACTLY what you are objecting to, my friend. So the definition is perfect for the scope of this poll.

Still waiting on that quote from Macarthur, regarding repentance being a physical act, bro...

 

[kyredneck]

...sin being a physical act...

IMO sin is an attitude.

 

[Havensdad]

IMO sin is an attitude.

Sorry, my brother. I meant to say "repentance", not "sin". Sin, IMHO, is both an attitude, and an action (not to mention a communicable disease!)

 

[Tom Butler]

As we discuss Lordship Salvation, I hope we're careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water. In the effort to defend "faith alone" for salvation, let's don't dump repentence as part of that process.

We have too many instances in the New Testament where we find repentance as an element.

John the Baptist's exhortation was "repent."
Jesus' message was "repent."
Peter's Pentecost Day message was interrupted with the question, "what shall we do?" Peter's answer: "Repent."

Paul's message was clear, in Acts 20:21 "..testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ."

Paul's sermon on Mars Hill in Acts 17 concluded with "God commands all men everywhere to repent." But Luke records the response as "some believed."

This same Paul told the Philippian jailer a chapter earlier "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you'll be saved..."

Philip baptized the Ethiopian eunuch because the eunuch said "I believe..."

And finally, I was struck by this passage: Acts 11:18 "When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."

I suggest that we avoid making repentance and faith enemies. Paul did not. Jesus did not. Even though the two words are rarely used together as required for salvation, it is clear (at least to me) that they are inseparable.

To borrow an age-old saying, they are two sides of the same coin.

And to borrow from a church sign spotted by my wife: "Salvation without repentance isn't."

 

[Tom Butler]

After looking at my post #28, I think it probably would have been more germane to the Ray Comfort thread. I went back and reviewed all the posts here, and don't find much disagreement over the role of repentance in salvation. We're mainly differing over how to define it.

In that vein, I find myself agreeing with Winman (Post #7)for the first time since his arrival at the BB. Well done, brother.

 

[Jon-Marc]

To repent means to have a change of mind--to see things as God sees them. We go from seeing nothing as sin to recognizing that we are sinners and doomed for hell.

 

[Havensdad]

I believe this poll has shown that the overwhelming majority of people on this board, believe that turning FROM sin, TO Christ, is the Biblical model of salvation...

 

[olegig]

I believe this poll has shown that the overwhelming majority of people on this board, believe that turning FROM sin, TO Christ, is the Biblical model of salvation...

Now all you have to do is figure out if the people on this board are a good representation of Christianity or if perhaps it is a biased sample.

 

[webdog]

Webdog,

This is the definition given in every book I have read on the issue (or at least, the common theme). Please note it is EXACTLY what you are objecting to, my friend. So the definition is perfect for the scope of this poll.

Still waiting on that quote from Macarthur, regarding repentance being a physical act, bro...

Here's a few...

“The gospel Jesus proclaimed was a call to discipleship, a call to follow Him in submissive obedience. . . . Forsaking oneself for Christ’s sake is not an optional step of discipleship subsequent to conversion; it is the sine qua non of saving faith.” (TGATJ p. 27, 242)

“Thus in a sense we pay the ultimate price for salvation when our sinful self is nailed to a cross. . . . It is an exchange of all that we are for all that Christ is. And it denotes implicit obedience, full surrender to the lordship of Christ. Nothing less can qualify as saving faith.” (TGATJ p. 140)

“Let me say again unequivocally that Jesus’ summons to deny self and follow him was an invitation to salvation, not . . . a second step of faith following salvation….” (TGATJ p. 221)

“That is the kind of response the Lord Jesus called for: wholehearted commitment. A desire for Him at any cost. Unconditional surrender. A full exchange of self for the Savior. It is the only response that will open the gates of the kingdom.” (TGATJ p. 148)

“Anyone who wants to come after Jesus into the Kingdom of God, anyone who wants to be a Christian, has to face three commands: 1) deny himself, 2) take up his cross daily, and 3) follow him.” (Hard to Believe p. 6)

 

[webdog]

I believe this poll has shown that the overwhelming majority of people on this board, believe that turning FROM sin, TO Christ, is the Biblical model of salvation...

Is that what faith is...turning from sin?

 

[Havensdad]

Is that what faith is...turning from sin?

The unsaved man's faith is in the world and sin. So yes: taking that faith and placing it in Christ instead, is indeed saving faith.

 

[Steven2006]

Can a person place their trust and faith in Christ as their saviour without recognizing and hating their sin? Without the desire to completely to turn from them?

Can they be sincere and yet at the same time be thinking "I kind of like that one sin, I will keep doing just that one"? Can they be sincere and believe that some of their sins are not really all that bad?

 

[Havensdad]

Here's a few...

“The gospel Jesus proclaimed was a call to discipleship, a call to follow Him in submissive obedience. . . . Forsaking oneself for Christ’s sake is not an optional step of discipleship subsequent to conversion; it is the sine qua non of saving faith.” (TGATJ p. 27, 242)

Decision: not an action "Hey, I am going to Follow Christ!" Of course, good works follow from that faith.

Also: context, context context. If you read the surrounding paragraphs, you would easily see what he was saying. Discussing this subject, Macarthur says :

"Obedience...is the natural fruit of genuine love for him...and genuine saving faith (pg. 32, in the 20th anniversary ed.)

“Thus in a sense we pay the ultimate price for salvation when our sinful self is nailed to a cross. . . . It is an exchange of all that we are for all that Christ is. And it denotes implicit obedience, full surrender to the lordship of Christ. Nothing less can qualify as saving faith.” (TGATJ p. 140)

Again, this is a decision: not an action. Christ said pick up your cross and follow me. The decision to do so, is saving faith. If someone says "No, Jesus, go milk a motorcycle. I do not want to follow you!", that is the opposite of saving faith.

“Let me say again unequivocally that Jesus’ summons to deny self and follow him was an invitation to salvation, not . . . a second step of faith following salvation….” (TGATJ p. 221)

Right: again, a decision. Where are the works you were speaking of? This is just someone saying "I don't want the world (deny self), Jesus, I want you!"

“That is the kind of response the Lord Jesus called for: wholehearted commitment. A desire for Him at any cost. Unconditional surrender. A full exchange of self for the Savior. It is the only response that will open the gates of the kingdom.” (TGATJ p. 148)

Commitment is a decision. Desire is also not an action. Surrender is a decision. Again, this is just someone saying "I don't want my old life, Lord, I want you!"

“Anyone who wants to come after Jesus into the Kingdom of God, anyone who wants to be a Christian, has to face three commands: 1) deny himself, 2) take up his cross daily, and 3) follow him.” (Hard to Believe p. 6)

[/quote]

1) Deny Himself "I am going to live for Christ, not for me." A decision, not an action.

2) Take up His cross "Jesus, I am going to have faith in you, and no one else!"

3) Follow him: Goes without saying. Christ said follow Him: if you say, "No way Jesus, I am not going to follow you. I like Satan." then you do not have saving faith.

On pg. 279 of his 20th Anniversary edition, Macarthur states "A person might be truly be born again without explicitly counting the cost, but no one is saved who counts the cost and is completely unwilling to pay it. ...the Holy Spirit in the heart of a true believer prompts some degree of surrender to Christ's authority even at the inception of the new birth."

This statement, shows unequivocally, that J. Macs comments are to be taken as decisions/commitment of the heart, not actions. For while we have "wholehearted commitment", we may have only "some degree" of surrender.

 

[Revmitchell]

Can a person place their trust and faith in Christ as their saviour without recognizing and hating their sin?

nope...........................

 

[HankD]

Technically speaking, I would rather reverse the order and say that we are saved by turning to Christ from everything else (world, flesh, devil, self, etc...). But to do this perfectly day by day, I am not able.

What they are voting for does not even include the word repentance. It is stated VERY plainly: that to be saved, we must turn away from sin and the world, and turn unto Christ. That is the Lordship Position, and it could not be written in a simpler fashion.

So say you Havensdad, but often among many there is either an actual or perceived legalism involved in the maintenance of this “Lordship salvation” in spite of the simplistic wording.

Another thing that a yellow blinking light to me is "we must turn away from sin and the world, and turn unto Christ". I know what you mean and though I am no Calvinist I would rather say that Christ turns us from sin through a cooperative effort involving our honesty with Him, obediance to the word of God and the leading of the Holy Spirit.

When we acknowledge our sin He cleanses us from the unrighteousness in our lives. "without Me you can do nothing".

Anyone who believes we turn from sin, to Christ for salvation, believes in Lordship Salvation, whether or not they wish to call it that.

Though I personally reject the term "Lordship salvation" He is my Lord without reservation, though I have failed Him along the way.

In fact He is more than my Lord, He is my Lord and my God. My Savior, my shepherd, my everything.

I believe some have confused or confounded the act of justification with the growth of sanctification.


Here is another objection to "Lordship salvation".

Matthew 7
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

“Lord, Lord” (these folks used the Koine emphatic). Just to put one’s stamp of approval on or make a verbal confession of Jesus as Lord is no guarantee of salvation as shown by this Scripture above.

The Lord knows who are His and what to do with those who are not.

Matthew 13
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Finally, one day every tongue will confess (in reality) that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God…

Philippians 2
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

There is a scriptural way whereby we can know the real from the pretenders.

Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.​

HankD

 

[kyredneck]

But to do this perfectly day by day, I am not able.....

'Wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?'

Outstanding post Brother Hank. Thanks.