I'm no Calvinist but...

[Robert Snow]

this statement makes man soverign over God.

No it doesn't. If it is God that is giving you the choice, He is still sovereign.

 

[Rippon]

That is correct! Thank you. 'All anthropos'. Not every man, woman, and child there is, ever was, or ever will be. Just means 'all races', 'all anthropos'.

Not all people inclusively -- but the Lord has His elect ones from among all nations,tribes and languages.

 

[FR7 Baptist]

No it doesn't. If it is God that is giving you the choice, He is still sovereign.

You hit the nail on the head. It amazes me that so many Calvinists think that God's sovereignty means that He must act in a manner that results in unconditional election. While man is totally depraved, God gives all people prevenient grace which restores them to a point where they can freely choose Christ. It's not that people have the power to choose Christ on their own, it's that God restores the ability to do so, because salvation is all of grace.

 

[Winman]

Watch your blasphemy Winman. God, since He created everyone has the perfect right do do anything He wants with His creatures. He has the right to pass by some and select others. He doesn't need your permission because you (like the rest of us) are a worm of the dust. We all deserve condemnation. So if He chooses to mercy some and harden others -- so be it.

When you disagree with a Calvinist it's best not to call God names like "sinner". Just a helpful reminder.

This is where you are very wrong, God cannot do anything. God cannot lie for instance.

Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Calvinism teaches that God can break his very own laws. God strictly forbids man from being partial, but according to Calvinism, God elects to save some men, and pass by others that they perish for his pleasure, which contradicts his own word.

Eze 33: 11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

God says he has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, Calvinism says he does.

God also forbids being angry at a person without cause, but you teach that God chooses to pass by men and let them perish before they are even born and have done either good or bad.

Matt 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Calvinism teaches men are born condemned before they have done good or bad, in fact Calvinism teaches they are condemned before they are even conceived or come into existence. I have seen several Calvinists use Romans 9:11-13 to supposedly prove this.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Calvinists teach that God hated Esau before he was ever born, and chose to pass him by. This is not only showing partiality which God forbids as sin, but it is also hating a person without a cause which is also sin.

The problem is Calvinism does not properly understand these verses and teaches a false doctrine. God cannot do everything, he can not sin and break his own laws. Didn't Jesus live under the law?

 

[Tom Butler]

You hit the nail on the head. It amazes me that so many Calvinists think that God's sovereignty means that He must act in a manner that results in unconditional election. While man is totally depraved, God gives all people prevenient grace which restores them to a point where they can freely choose Christ. It's not that people have the power to choose Christ on their own, it's that God restores the ability to do so, because salvation is all of grace.

This all would sound pretty good if God had revealed the Christ to all men. Having the ability to choose Christ is meaningless to those who have never heard of Him.

 

[psalms109:31]

Milk

So many can't handle the milk so they had to turn to a substitute. I believe in calvinist, but when Jesus word is preached it changes everything and any one can come. people trying to change words like world reminds of another who said God really didn't mean you shall surely die.

There was those who were predestined to enter into the promise land, but was not able to enter because of unbelief.

Trust in the Lord is more important than election, because you can be elected, but not be able to enter because of unbelief. We need more like those who said I don't care if there is giants, God said we can take it lets go.

 

[jbh28]

No it doesn't. If it is God that is giving you the choice, He is still sovereign.

Robert, I would agree with you here. God could give man a choice and leave it with that, and still be sovereign. Actually, saying that God couldn't give man a choice would be an attack on the sovereignty of God.

 

[jbh28]

This is where you are very wrong, God cannot do anything. God cannot lie for instance.

Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Correct, God cannot lie. Why, because of Him. He made that.

Calvinism teaches that God can break his very own laws. God strictly forbids man from being partial, but according to Calvinism, God elects to save some men, and pass by others that they perish for his pleasure, which contradicts his own word.

Eze 33: 11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

God says he has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, Calvinism says he does.

Is God being partial when he chose the Jews as his chosen people? Is God being partial when he forgives those that believe, but damns those that don't even though both deserve Hell?

I was curious if you had any verses to back up partiality claim. I already addressed Romans 2 in that it is saying that God will not show partiality in judging. Either you are saved or not. It doesn't matter your race, age or whatever, just if you are saved.

I don't believe that God takes pleasure in the death of the wicked. I believe that Gods wants all men everywhere to repent.

God also forbids being angry at a person without cause, but you teach that God chooses to pass by men and let them perish before they are even born and have done either good or bad.

Matt 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Calvinism teaches men are born condemned before they have done good or bad, in fact Calvinism teaches they are condemned before they are even conceived or come into existence. I have seen several Calvinists use Romans 9:11-13 to supposedly prove this.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Calvinists teach that God hated Esau before he was ever born, and chose to pass him by. This is not only showing partiality which God forbids as sin, but it is also hating a person without a cause which is also sin.

The problem is Calvinism does not properly understand these verses and teaches a false doctrine. God cannot do everything, he can not sin and break his own laws. Didn't Jesus live under the law?

I see why you think it is wrong. You said, "God chooses to pass by men and let them perish before they are even born and have done either good or bad." I don't think you understand election. People go to hell because they are sinners. For God to pass one by and allow that person to have their just punishment is not anything bad on God's part. He is letting them have their just punishment.

We don't deserve to be saved nor the chance to be saved. We all deserve hell.

 

[jbh28]

So many can't handle the milk so they had to turn to a substitute. I believe in calvinist, but when Jesus word is preached it changes everything and any one can come. people trying to change words like world reminds of another who said God really didn't mean you shall surely die.

There was those who were predestined to enter into the promise land, but was not able to enter because of unbelief.

Trust in the Lord is more important than election, because you can be elected, but not be able to enter because of unbelief. We need more like those who said I don't care if there is giants, God said we can take it lets go.

Anyone MAY come

Predestined to enter, but didn't....then they were not predestined to enter, unless you are speaking of a nation being predestined and not individuals.

"because you can be elected" Election happened before the foundation of the world. If you wanted to say Trust in the Lord because you can be saved, then that would be accurate.

 

[Winman]

I don't think you understand election. People go to hell because they are sinners. For God to pass one by and allow that person to have their just punishment is not anything bad on God's part. He is letting them have their just punishment.

You can't say election is unconditional and say men go to hell for their sins. Your actions in this life have nothing to do with going to heaven or hell if your doctrine is correct. The only thing that matters is if God chooses you or passes you by. How could your sins cause you to go to hell if you were condemned before you were even born?

 

[psalms109:31]

In Him

None of is worthy of being elected or chosen. So it is Jesus that was chosen before the foundation of the world. The only way to be predestined before the foundation of the world is to be in Jesus and God has said He will only leave in Him those who are meek and humble who trust in the name of the Lord.

When we are in Jesus, God only sees Jesus. See we are one body with many members.

1 Corinthians 12:12
The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ.

Ephesians 2:19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

 

[Whowillgo]

2Pe 3:9 ¶ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[jbh28]

You can't say election is unconditional and say men go to hell for their sins. Your actions in this life have nothing to do with going to heaven or hell if your doctrine is correct. The only thing that matters is if God chooses you or passes you by. How could your sins cause you to go to hell if you were condemned before you were even born?

As I said, you don't understand election. Hear me out on this and you will understand.

#1: People go to hell because of their sins.
#2: All people are sinners and on their way to hell.
#3: God has unconditionally elected to save some that are on their way to hell.

"Your actions in this life" ONLY would send you to hell, as none are righteous. God has elected to save some from this path to hell.

Predestination ONLY applies to those that are elected to heaven. Nowhere in Scripture does it mention predestination in reference to the lost. In know there are some that believe that, but I do not. I believe it is called double predestination, which is a doctrine I reject.

I hope this helps you understand. I'm not in this post attempting to defend the doctrine, just trying to help you understand my position on it.

 

[jbh28]

None of is worthy of being elected or chosen.

AMEN!!!!! No one is worthy of any part of salvation. We all deserve to go to hell for our sins. I'm saved, not becasue of my good sense, or because I was smart enough to choose God, but because God saved me. He changed my heart. He made me alive!

Ephesians 2:4-5
"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved—"​

So it is Jesus that was chosen before the foundation of the world. The only way to be predestined before the foundation of the world is to be in Jesus and God has said He will only leave in Him those who are meek and humble who trust in the name of the Lord.

Yes, Jesus was chosen to save us, but we were chosen to be in him before the foundation of the world Ephesians 1:4-5. That is speaking about individuals, not Christ being chosen there.

Ephesians 1:4-10
"even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.​

 

[jbh28]

2Pe 3:9 ¶ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

And your point would be?

Who is the "us-ward."
Any of whom? Context says that it would be the "us-ward."

Lets assume it's speaking of all individuals ever. Does God desires all men to repent? Sure! The Bible says in Acts 17:30 that God has "commandeth all men every where to repent:" I would think then that God wants all men to repent, but not all men are going to repent.

This doesn't mean that God will elect everyone.

 

[Whowillgo]

And your point would be?

Who is the "us-ward."
Any of whom? Context says that it would be the "us-ward."

Lets assume it's speaking of all individuals ever. Does God desires all men to repent? Sure! The Bible says in Acts 17:30 that God has "commandeth all men every where to repent:" I would think then that God wants all men to repent, but not all men are going to repent.

This doesn't mean that God will elect everyone.

I never implied they would, the verse simply to me says that God would not elect people based on some random formula. He has a desire to see all repent, if He based his election on you can come, you can't then why does He wait to return is He waiting simply to fill heaven with those elect who haven't been born yet or Is He waiting on those who He through His foreknowledge knew would accept the call and respond.

 

[jbh28]

I never implied they would, the verse simply to me says that God would not elect people based on some random formula. He has a desire to see all repent, if He based his election on you can come, you can't then why does He wait to return is He waiting simply to fill heaven with those elect who haven't been born yet or Is He waiting on those who He through His foreknowledge knew would accept the call and respond.

I don't believe God elected used anything random. Unconditional means His election wasn't conditioned on something good in us.

I'll be back tomorrow, it's late. I just was checking in. :sleeping_2:

 

[FR7 Baptist]

I don't believe God elected used anything random. Unconditional means His election wasn't conditioned on something good in us.

Neither does conditional election. It's all by the grace of God that we are enabled to repent and believe.

 

[psalms109:31]

Ephesians 1:13 (New International Version)
13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit.14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.
Romans 11:
17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
We have this tree from the foundation of the world that started off with Israel, The natural branches. Then we have those who was broken of for unbelief. God kept a remnant the meek and humble who trusted in the name of the Lord. Then we have us the gentiles who was included with them when we heard the Gospel of our salvation having believed. Those who have been cut out can be grafted back in if they do not continue in their unbelief. It is this tree that God is talking about. God foreknew them so He also predestined them.
If you don’t believe in foreknowledge, in how He chose them, then I am wasting my breath


We are saved by grace, because we acknowkledge that it is what Jesus did that saved us. The cost of our sin is death, so nothing we can do can save us, so we are going to have to trust in Jesus

 

[jbh28]

I don't believe God elected used anything random. Unconditional means His election wasn't conditioned on something good in us.

Neither does conditional election. It's all by the grace of God that we are enabled to repent and believe.

But conditional elected is based on those whom believed, which is something good. If it's nothing good in us, and we repent and believe because we are enabled by God to do so(which I agree) then why isn't everybody saved? Is God unable to enable everyone? Or did God choose to not enable everyone.

If you don’t believe in foreknowledge, in how He chose them, then I am wasting my breath

I never said I don't believe in foreknowledge. Of course God knows all. Where does Scripture say that God's choice was based on his foreknowledge of faith?

Romans 8:29-30 says that "For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to become conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the first-born among many brethren; 30) and whom he predestined, these he also called; and whom he called, these he also justified; and whom he justified, these he also glorified."

It's not a what he foreknew, but whom. It's a personal thing. I know of no passage in Scripture that says that God's election was based on looking ahead and seeing who would believe.