Soonness: A fact that needs to be dealt with

[Winman]

At least people know what they are getting when they debate me. I'm not here to play footsie with scripture. I ask questions and expect answers and I assume those who are debating me expect the same.

Yes, I've asked you several times to explain the many prophesies that says Jesus will come to save his people and not destroy them, and you have completely ignored them.

I would call that playing footsie.

 

[Grasshopper]

Yes, I've asked you several times to explain the many prophesies that says Jesus will come to save his people and not destroy them, and you have completely ignored them.

I would call that playing footsie.

This is the first time you have adressed me. I usually ignore you because last time we had a debate you would never answer questions.

In answer to your question, both are true. He saves the remnant and pours his wrath out on those who refuse Him. It is a common theme. Old Covenant Israel was made of two groups the remnant(true Israel) and the rest. Salvation came to those who believed judgment to those who did not.

I'll ask you the same questions:

1. What did Jesus mean here:

Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

2. Did this literally happen?

3 Look! The LORD is coming from his dwelling place;
he comes down and treads the high places of the earth.
4 The mountains melt beneath him
and the valleys split apart,
like wax before the fire,
like water rushing down a slope.

 

[HankD]

Thanks for your response Grasshopper...
I'll have to think about it for a while but to answer the following:

Now perhaps you would be so kind to answer a couple.

1. What did Jesus mean here:

Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

2. Did this literally happen?

3 Look! The LORD is coming from his dwelling place;
he comes down and treads the high places of the earth.
4 The mountains melt beneath him
and the valleys split apart,
like wax before the fire,
like water rushing down a slope

First, the "evil" servant is not evil because he says "my Lord delays His coming" but he is evil because he beats his fellow servants in light of that fact.

He had a reason to say what he did because in fact his Lord had delayed His coming, that is my point.

We disagree concerning the length of time of that "delay".

Having said that my view on Matthew 10:23 is that in light of that delay (going on 2000 years now in my view) Jesus will take up where He left off with the 144,000 of the twelve tribes Israel spoken of in the Revelation.

It is to them (Israeli Jewish believers) in the midst of the Tribulation therefore that this Scripture will apply.

I base this upon a comparison of Acts 1 and Zechariah 14 (among other Scripture).

Acts 1

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
...
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.​

Acts 3

19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.​

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.​

There was no visible and bodily return of "this same Jesus" to the Mount of Olives accompanied by deliverance from the Romans (actually "all nations") in AD70 by splitting the mount of Olives and creating a new valley as a way of escape.


At the present time it seems too great a challenge for me grasshopper to connect the AD70 invasion of Jerusalem by Titus and the Roman armies with the second coming of "this same" Jesus.


The language of Acts 1:11 seems a solitary proof text against full preterism.
Zechariah 14:1-5 seems the Acts 1:11 complete and literal fulfilment.


So, before I would consider a change of position from moderate dispensationalism-Partial Preterism, my challenge to any full preterist is to harmonize the Acts 1 language of "this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven" with the AD70 destruction of Jerusalem by Titus and the Roman armies.


As for:

Micah 1

3 For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth.
4 And the mountains shall be molten under him, and the valleys shall be cleft, as wax before the fire, and as the waters that are poured down a steep place.​

This sounds similar to Zechariah 14 where Jesus returns to the Mount of Olives and the touch of His feet under Him will create the escape route of this new valley (probably the Valley of Jezreel - Hosea). ​

So yes it is a literal fulfilment with some imagery as well.​

Neither of us have a problem with imagery, metaphor, allegory, etc. Just how to interpret the meaning of what they represent as well as sorting out what is literal and what is imagery.​

Also in another of my posts I asked Brother Tom or any full preterist to define for me the transition from time into the eternal state, the final resurrected glorified body and the impact of that transition upon the material universe.​

Perhaps you or Tom ar any other full Preterist could do that for me.​

Full preterists seem weak on these matters.​

Use whatever sources, Scripture preferably, commentaries, church fathers...​

Thanks again Grasshopper.​

HankD​

 

[Winman]

Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

2. Did this literally happen?

Well, let me ask you, had the new doctrine of Christ spread over Israel by 70 A.D.? I believe the answer would be yes, and that it occured much sooner than that, probably within a very short time of Saul's persecution.

Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

It is very difficult to believe that the gospel had not gone over all of Israel many decades before 70 A.D.. So, according to your doctrine, Jesus should have come much earlier. Most scholars believe Paul was converted on the road to Damascus within one year of the Lord's crucifixion. Already the gospel had spread, Paul was going to Damascus to take prisoner Christians who had fled there for refuge.

So, Saul's (Paul's) persecution was no minor event. He was arresting these new Christians, and perhaps having some executed. People were fleeing for their lives. It is almost impossible to imagine that all of Israel did not know of this event and the new doctrine of Christ, and this nearly 40 years before 70 A.D..

 

[Grasshopper]

We disagree concerning the length of time of that "delay".

I would ask did the delay fall within the lifetime of the servant?

Secondly what did the writer of Hebrews mean when he quoted the OT passage:

Heb 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
G5549
χρονίζω
chronizō
Thayer Definition:

1) to linger, delay, tarry

Doesn't the writer of Hebrews writing years after Christ indicate there is no delay?

Does Jesus or the OT ever indicate a possible delay?

Which brings up the question, since you believe there is a delay then you must believe it was intended to occur much earlier. You don't delay unless you had an original time already set. Do you then acknowledge that His parousia was indeed originally to occur within the 1st century generation?

Having said that my view on Matthew 10:23 is that in light of that delay (going on 2000 years now in my view) Jesus will take up where He left off with the 144,000 of the twelve tribes Israel spoken of in the Revelation.

I would say the 144000 are symbolic of the Jews who accepted the Messiah. Even Darby notes the significance of the number:


First, the perfect number of the remnant of Israel is sealed, before the providential instruments of God's judgments are allowed to act; 144,000 = 12 x 12 x 1000.

They are the firstfruits:


Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.


This seems to match what James said:


Jam 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Not sure how you have firstfruits posited at the end. Firstfruits are first, thus those 144000 are a symbolic representation of those who transfered from physical Israel to the Spiritual Israel.

It is to them (Israeli Jewish believers) in the midst of the Tribulation therefore that this Scripture will apply.

So it is your view that Jews will persecute Jews during the Great Tribulation?


Mat 10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;

Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.


Is it your view also that Matthew 23 speaks of a future persecution?


Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:


This sounds exactly like Matthew 10.

I base this upon a comparison of Acts 1 and Zechariah 14 (among other Scripture).

Acts 1

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?​

Would you consider the restoration of the kingdom to be described as the rebuilding of David's Tabernacle:


Amo 9:11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of

David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:

20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.​

Would you consider the reformation of Hebrews 10:9 to be speaking of this same time?

Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

​

Is this the same day of the Lord as found in Malachi?​

Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

The language of Acts 1:11 seems a solitary proof text against full preterism.
Zechariah 14:1-5 seems the Acts 1:11 complete and literal fulfilment.

These might help answer your questions.​

Zechariah and the Resurrection, Part 7 Don Preston 1000 ​

Zechariah and the Resurrection, Part 6 Don Preston 1308 ​

Zechariah and the River of Life, Part 5 Don Preston 1059 ​

Zechariah: The Earthquake and the Parousia, Part 4 Don Preston 1148 ​

Zechariah: The Coming of the Lord with His Saints, Part 3 Don Preston 1096 ​

Zechariah and the Apocalypse, part 2 Don Preston 1135 ​

Zechariah and the New Covenant, part 1 ​

 

[Grasshopper]

So, before I would consider a change of position from moderate dispensationalism-Partial Preterism, my challenge to any full preterist is to harmonize the Acts 1 language of "this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven" with the AD70 destruction of Jerusalem by Titus and the Roman armies.

As one who leans to a full-preterist position I find Acts 1 to be the best case for a future coming. All the other coming passages I can see easily being in the AD70 context. But that brings me to the problem of... for what purpose is His coming in Acts 1?

Here is how some FP's deal with it:

http://www.eschatology.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=701:what-about-acts-1-qhe-shall-come-in-like-mannerq&catid=91:study-by-passage&Itemid=61


http://www.eschatology.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=706:guest-article-william-bell-on-acts-1&catid=91:study-by-passage&Itemid=61

http://www.beyondtheendtimes.com/writing/articles/k_davies/how_was.html

As for:

Micah 1
3 For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth.
4 And the mountains shall be molten under him, and the valleys shall be cleft, as wax before the fire, and as the waters that are poured down a steep place.

This sounds similar to Zechariah 14 where Jesus returns to the Mount of Olives and the touch of His feet under Him will create the escape route of this new valley (probably the Valley of Jezreel - Hosea).

So yes it is a literal fulfilment with some imagery as well.

So you believe this literally happened in the years 727-722 BC?

Gill:
This chapter treats of the judgments of God on Israel and Judah for their idolatry.

Mic 1:4 - And the mountains shall be molten under him,.... As Sinai was when he descended on it, and as all nations will be at the general conflagration; but here the words are to be taken, not literally, but figuratively, for the kingdoms of Israel and Judah, and for the kings, and princes, and great men in them, that lifted up their heads as high, and thought themselves as secure, as mountains;

As dispies always ask preterists, "do we have any accounts where this is said to have literally happened"?

Neither of us have a problem with imagery, metaphor, allegory, etc. Just how to interpret the meaning of what they represent as well as sorting out what is literal and what is imagery.

I agree, thats why I look for prior or similar use when dealing with language like this.

Also in another of my posts I asked Brother Tom or any full preterist to define for me the transition from time into the eternal state, the final resurrected glorified body and the impact of that transition upon the material universe.

Perhaps you or Tom ar any other full Preterist could do that for me.

When you die you go immediately into the presence of God into the Heavenly realm with your eternal body.

Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Full preterists seem weak on these matters.

What happens to you when you die? Are you without a body? Are you a spirit waiting on your old body to be resurrected?

Use whatever sources, Scripture preferably, commentaries, church fathers...

Thanks again Grasshopper.

I love Don Preston's site along with his tremondous books. I think most of your answers can be found there with much better explanation than I could ever give:

http://www.eschatology.org/index.ph...y&id=39:resurrection&Itemid=61&layout=default


If you prefer more exegetical work then Sam Frost does great work:

http://thereignofchrist.com/category/writ/commentary/1-corinthians/

You could probably help me understand it.

A little Sproul critque for you:
http://www.quodlibet.net/articles/otto-sproul.shtml

As always, a true pleasure. Hopefully those reading can learn from us both and make up their own minds after much study.

 

[HankD]

As one who leans to a full-preterist position I find Acts 1 to be the best case for a future coming. All the other coming passages I can see easily being in the AD70 context. But that brings me to the problem of... for what purpose is His coming in Acts 1?

Here is how some FP's deal with it:

http://www.eschatology.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=701:what-about-acts-1-qhe-shall-come-in-like-mannerq&catid=91:study-by-passage&Itemid=61


http://www.eschatology.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=706:guest-article-william-bell-on-acts-1&catid=91:study-by-passage&Itemid=61

http://www.beyondtheendtimes.com/writing/articles/k_davies/how_was.html

So you believe this literally happened in the years 727-722 BC?

Gill:
This chapter treats of the judgments of God on Israel and Judah for their idolatry.

Mic 1:4 - And the mountains shall be molten under him,.... As Sinai was when he descended on it, and as all nations will be at the general conflagration; but here the words are to be taken, not literally, but figuratively, for the kingdoms of Israel and Judah, and for the kings, and princes, and great men in them, that lifted up their heads as high, and thought themselves as secure, as mountains;

As dispies always ask preterists, "do we have any accounts where this is said to have literally happened"?

I agree, thats why I look for prior or similar use when dealing with language like this.

When you die you go immediately into the presence of God into the Heavenly realm with your eternal body.

Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

What happens to you when you die? Are you without a body? Are you a spirit waiting on your old body to be resurrected?

I love Don Preston's site along with his tremondous books. I think most of your answers can be found there with much better explanation than I could ever give:

http://www.eschatology.org/index.ph...y&id=39:resurrection&Itemid=61&layout=default


If you prefer more exegetical work then Sam Frost does great work:

http://thereignofchrist.com/category/writ/commentary/1-corinthians/

You could probably help me understand it.

A little Sproul critque for you:
http://www.quodlibet.net/articles/otto-sproul.shtml

As always, a true pleasure. Hopefully those reading can learn from us both and make up their own minds after much study.

Thanks grasshopper, you've given me a lot of material to consider.

I'll answer your inquiries in a summary way.

Every view has its difficulties and yes the "delayed" coming of the Lord does seem to go against the beliefs of the apostles and some of the epistle prophecies which have the expectation of His return within their own lifetimes.

To me however this does not violate the inerrancy of the Scriptures because we have been down this path of principle before with the preaching of Jonah who declared what the Lord had given him to say.

Jonah 3:4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.​

Yet Ninevah was not destroyed in 40 days. God cannot lie but apparently He can "repent":​

Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.​

The point is that apaprently God at His disgression can and does "repent" (Makes changes to His plan as a result of human responses - or so it would seem).

Theologically, I can't fathom the mechanics of God and His ability to "repent" but accept what the Scriptures says about it and try not to sprain my brain contemplating it.

"and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not".

So, my sense of the "delay" has to do with God's foreknowledge of the nation of Israel and their rejection as a nation of the Gospel in the end times:

Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.​

God was not taken by surprise at Israel's rejection. The Lord, in order to fulfill all righteousness and to "stop every mouth", preached the Gospel through His Apostles to the Jew first (who rejected it as a nation) and then the Greek (helenists) which continues to this day until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled and He returns to the Mount of Olives and then restores the earthly manifestation of the kingdom of God to Israel as a nation.​

Acts 13:46 began the "official" ingathering of the Gentiles (IMO). God in His foreknowledge having made room for it, the Lord tarrying in His return as the Gentiles (and believing individual jews) are gathered into the earthly manifestation of the kingdom of God, the Church(es).​

Yes, just before the final trumpet Jews will be turned against Jews, against their own brethren as in the days of Hosea and the Civil wars between Israel and Judah.​

I am of the opinion that many OT prophecies have both a near or partial fulfilment and a far and/or completion component to them.

As to the resurrected body of the believers of Jesus Christ (who ate and drank along with the disciples in their mortal bodies), our departed spirits will apparently receive that same kind of body at some later point in time. So It would appear to me from Scripture that our body which we desired to be clothed with will come later. Though I don't completely dismiss the idea that the Scripture indicates it awaits us in the heavenly tabernacle as our spirit leaves the mortal body and makes it's exodus to the Father.​

You have given me a huge homework assignment.​

Thanks again brother.​

HankD​

 

[Allan]

You are now deparate. Tell us all, when Jesus said "many" how many did He mean since you obviously know?

Desperate? No just factual.
Let us examine the facts.
When Jesus said 'many', was it a common term that refered to... let give a high estemation of those who claimed to be christ at that time - 18. (while the number of people spoken of was actaully more like 8 to 10 - IF memory serves)

Now let us look at how Jesus used this term 'many'.
...Many shall come to me on that saying Lord Lord
... Wide is the gate .. leads to destruction ..many there be which will enter

and 'many' more and I haven't yet found it to be rendered as , yet not just Jesus but the very term itself used in scripture refers to a very large group. Not even the 12 were considered, many. This is one aspect that illistrates my point on dual fulfillment. While there were various people claiming to be Christ especially since it was around the time Christ should come (according to prophecy), this rising up of christs punctated a coming event but still established this was not the fulness of what it spoke to.

Secondly how many more occured that are not recorded in history?

Ah. The argument from silence. Can it not be said with equal verasity that there were no others since such an event was desirously looked for by the Jews. Thus no other record proves there were none, since the Jews much like Christians were to mark them who were decievers and false.

Yea, I missed that bodily part. Where is that in Matthew?

The 'bodily' part I placed there refered to His coming was of course added to 'that'. Yet there are numerous other passages which speak to this, most notably 1 Cor. Since Jesus was resurrected bodily then His coming again must also be bodily, and we will be resurrected after the likeness of His resurrection - bodily. If there was no resurrection (bodily) then our faith is in vain, at least according to Paul. And we remain in our sins and are of all men the most miserable.

At least people know what they are getting when they debate me. I'm not here to play footsie with scripture. I ask questions and expect answers and I assume those who are debating me expect the same. If I don't know an answer I say so. I'm not here to prove how educated I am. In fact I'm sure many if not most on here are much more educated than I. Never been to seminary or any kind of Bible College. What I have learned I've learned by reading and listening to others who know much more that I.

Again, with your childish and inane comments.
If you want applause for you knowledge you have obtained, I give it to you :applause: but it has absolutely no bearing here, so to even bring it up makes no sense.

Secondly, just becuase you don't like the answers given does not mean no answer was given nor that it wasn't easy to understand. So lets keep away from these children's games Ok?

But what they don't get from me is word games and changing answers depending on the question. Nor do they get obvious vague answers in order to avoid answering questions I don't know the answer to. What I try to give is clarity in answer so there is no confusion where I stand or in the point I'm trying to make. Apply that however you wish.

You don't get any of the above from me either. Yet I could say the same to your answers which you 'assume' are clear and not vague but seem such to me. See how this affects such debating when we become emotional rather than stay with the content. This is the reason I keep saying to please stay away your attacks and condesending posts and just talk about the issues. It does nothing for you nor your position.

Lets see, on the one hand you argue these things have never happened,

Let us deal with an honesty issue, you made an accusation now please show where I have stated these things have NEVER happened.

another time you say some have, another time you claim double-fulfillment which would indicate they have been fulfilled but will be so again. Somebody has to know what you think so I might as well give it a try.

These two are the same, and anyone who has studied eschatology knows many time in scripture a good portion of prophecies have dual fulfillments to them as I have shown.

If a person does not believe in dual fulfillments then they will have hard time explaining many prophetic events, one such event was the prophecy of the virgin birth being a sign that Jesus was the messiah but the prophecy was to King Ahaz initially, and was dealing with his time.

Too bad Gill and Spurgeon are dead, we could ask them too.

Why, they were wrong. You do know that for approximately the first 400 to 450 years of the early church it Premill. Meaning the apostles, their disciples and those after them, etc.. believed in the literal and physical return of Christ to set up a literal physical Kingdom. And of that till around 400 ad, it was the uncontested orthodox view of teh church. So the early church was under the same delusion as the first century Jews apparently.

 

[Rippon]

Again, with your childish and inane comments.
If you want applause for you (sic)knowledge you have obtained, I give it to you :applause: but it has absolutely no bearing here, so to even bring it up makes no sense.

Grasshopper had said that many or even most here are better educated. He has acknowledged that he hasn't been to seminary or even a Bible school. He has admitted that what he has learned has been gleaned from others more knowlegeable.
Therefore your paragraph is absurd. What childish and inane comments? You rarely read posts with full comprehension.

 

[Allan]

Grasshopper had said that many or even most here are better educated. He has acknowledged that he hasn't been to seminary or even a Bible school. He has admitted that what he has learned has been gleaned from others more knowlegeable.
Therefore your paragraph is absurd. What childish and inane comments? You rarely read posts with full comprehension.

Did I say ANYTHING about his education? No, I referenced his knowledge, not his education.
Secondly, our conversation require no reason to bring it up except to try and elevate himself, nothing more.

Lastly, coming from you I'll take the above post as a compliment Thank you Rippon.

 

[Rippon]

If I don't know an answer I say so. I'm not here to prove how educated I am. In fact I'm sure many if not most on here are much more educated than I. Never been to seminary or any kind of Bible College. What I have learned I've learned by reading and listening to others who know much more that I.

Again Allan, how can you consider the above childish and inane?

 

[asterisktom]

I think that no matter how soon it is as you interpret, it won't be sooner than this,

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

And I think that it is only like 98% done even at this moment.

According to Col. 1:23 it was already done. Unless you think that Paul was guilty, under inspiration, of gross exaggeration.

Please note that the word "world" is not the same "world" in, say, John 3:16. The word in Matt. 24:14 is "oikoumene" which signifies primarily the inhabited world of Paul's day - the Roman Empire. This usage shows up in verses like Luke 2:1

"In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world (oikoumene)."

Notice the inconsistency in the NIV editors. Both in your verse and mine above (Matt. 24:14 and Luke 2:1) the word used is oikoumene, yet the editors chose to render the first "the whole world", acknowledging the second as "the entire Roman world". "Roman" is not in the Greek at all.

Why did the editors of that paraphrase do this? They allowed their preset theology to determine how they would handle God's holy Word. BTW, this is why I hardly ever bother reading that paraphrase. I have no confidence in it.

 

[HankD]

Hi Tom,

RE: Colossians 1:23

KJV Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;​

"to every creature" is en te ktisei (Koine) which in some translations is:​

ASV Colossians 1:23 if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven; whereof I Paul was made a minister.​

NAS Colossians 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.​

DRA (Douay-Rheims from the Vulgate) Colossians 1:23 If so ye continue in the faith, grounded and settled, and immoveable from the hope of the gospel which you have heard, which is preached in all the creation that is under heaven: whereof I Paul am made a minister.​

and others (Darby, Young's).​

HankD​

 

[asterisktom]

Hi Tom,

RE: Colossians 1:23

KJV Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;​

"to every creature" is en te ktisei (Koine) which in some translations is:​

ASV Colossians 1:23 if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven; whereof I Paul was made a minister.​

NAS Colossians 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.​

DRA (Douay-Rheims from the Vulgate) Colossians 1:23 If so ye continue in the faith, grounded and settled, and immoveable from the hope of the gospel which you have heard, which is preached in all the creation that is under heaven: whereof I Paul am made a minister.​

and others (Darby, Young's).​

HankD​

Good morning Hank,

Thank you for the elaboration on Col. 1:23. I had noticed the interesting phraseology in my Metzgers, but didn't focus on it. The point in mentioning Paul's passage was its bearing on the time-frame of Matt. 24:14. I realize that the actual word "oikoumene" is not in it.

My main point was (A) the time-frame indicator of Col 1:23 and (B) the terminology cross-reference (oikoumene) of Matt 24:14 with Luke 2:1. These combine to show that the events spoken of must necessarily have been a past event.

Maybe I am missing a possible other point you meant to raise?

BTW, "ktisei" just begs for a whole other thread of discussion, and which I am itching to write on, were it not for the fact that I still have Acts 1:11 and several other verses on my to-do list.

 

[asterisktom]

Since I did not open this thread, and my post was the very first reply to the OP which contained none of the above, and my post was subject to your definition, I would think the author of the OP "fills this bill".

So I am once again a troll eh? I was actually in the process of typing a lengthy response to one of your earlier posts, webdog, when I came across this. Not going to bother now.

Not everyone has gobs of time for the internet that you apparently do. I just have time today to get to this backlog of posts I have been planning to do.

Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.

 

[webdog]

So I am once again a troll eh? I was actually in the process of typing a lengthy response to one of your earlier posts, webdog, when I came across this. Not going to bother now.

Not everyone has gobs of time for the internet that you apparently do. I just have time today to get to this backlog of posts I have been planning to do.

Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.

Thanks for doing us both a favor Fact is I responded to your OP with a legitimate answer, which you replied with a troll statement. If the shoe fits...

Blessed are the poor in Spirit.

 

[asterisktom]

BTW, "ktisei" just begs for a whole other thread of discussion, and which I am itching to write on, were it not for the fact that I still have Acts 1:11 and several other verses on my to-do list.

I still hope to write some more, Hank, on Col. 1:23 but I thought that in the meantime the following would also be worth looking at:
http://pantelism.com/TheGreatCoMission.htm

I can't vouch for the whole site, but there are some good comments on several points raised here.

 

[HankD]

Good morning Hank,

Thank you for the elaboration on Col. 1:23. I had noticed the interesting phraseology in my Metzgers, but didn't focus on it. The point in mentioning Paul's passage was its bearing on the time-frame of Matt. 24:14. I realize that the actual word "oikoumene" is not in it.

My main point was (A) the time-frame indicator of Col 1:23 and (B) the terminology cross-reference (oikoumene) of Matt 24:14 with Luke 2:1. These combine to show that the events spoken of must necessarily have been a past event.

Maybe I am missing a possible other point you meant to raise?

BTW, "ktisei" just begs for a whole other thread of discussion, and which I am itching to write on, were it not for the fact that I still have Acts 1:11 and several other verses on my to-do list.

Hi Tom,
The minor point I was making is the use by the KJV of the preposition "to every creature" rather that the alternative prepositional phrase "in all the creation".

The Gospel being preached "In all the creation" does not necessarily mean that everyone in the creation actually heard the gospel.

If the Gospel is preached in all the States of America, it does not necessarily mean that everyone actually heard in the State of Washington (for instance) as opposed to the Gospel being preached to all in the United States.

But I agree completely concerning "ktisei" it's a rather unusual word and a bit of a stretch translating it as the "Roman" world.

Thanks
HankD

 

[Grasshopper]

Desperate? No just factual.
Let us examine the facts.
When Jesus said 'many', was it a common term that refered to... let give a high estemation of those who claimed to be christ at that time - 18. (while the number of people spoken of was actaully more like 8 to 10 - IF memory serves)

Now let us look at how Jesus used this term 'many'.
...Many shall come to me on that saying Lord Lord
... Wide is the gate .. leads to destruction ..many there be which will enter

and 'many' more and I haven't yet found it to be rendered as , yet not just Jesus but the very term itself used in scripture refers to a very large group.

　
You can't be serious can you? You're equating the "many" that Jesus spoke of concerning salvation with the "many" false Christs that were to appear. Talk about ignoring context. What do you want to bet "many" here doesn't mean thousands?

Mat 8:16 And evening having come, they brought to him many demoniacs, and he did cast out the spirits with a word, and did heal all who were ill,
　
This is nothing less than desparation and is clear to anyone reading.
　

While there were various people claiming to be Christ especially since it was around the time Christ should come (according to prophecy), this rising up of christs punctated a coming event but still established this was not the fulness of what it spoke to.

I stepped in alot of that in my farm days.

Can it not be said with equal verasity that there were no others since such an event was desirously looked for by the Jews. Thus no other record proves there were none, since the Jews much like Christians were to mark them who were decievers and false.

So Acts and Josehus recorded everything there was to know concerning this? Acts was written nearly a decade before the Fall of Jerusalem.

Let us deal with an honesty issue, you made an accusation now please show where I have stated these things have NEVER happened.

You have inferred from your argumentation they had not, other places you say some had, other places you pull out the dual fulfillment card which indicates all had been. Here are some of your statemnets:

However notice what the disciples ask Jesus and His own answer about their fulfillment and the coming of the end (Not 70 ad.) - The entire chapter 24 of Matthew speaks of what is to come..


Now what are some of the things that shall happen so that we know that the end is 'near' (soon) and even at the door?
1. Many will come claiming to the Christ?
2. There will be wars and rumors of wars - IOW - their will be world wide hostility.
3. (yet here Jesus states the end isn't yet - or even close)
4. Nation will be against nation, Kindoms against kindoms.
...4a. also - famines
...4b. also - earthquakes in many places
...4c. also - diseases
Yet here Jesus states 'this is only the beginning of sorrows. (vs 8)
5. All nations will hate, and seek to torture and kill you
... 5a. Then many will fall away [from the christian faith] and betray each other and hate each other.
6. Many false prophets will rise up and decieve many
7. Sin will be rampant and thus will cause many's love (of Christ) to grow cold.
8. The gospel of the Kingdom will be preached to ALL nations -
........and THEN the end will come.
9. (vs 15)Because of the above..when you see the abomination of desolation - flee
...9a. from Judaea
...9b. If one is on the house top - do not come down
...9c. Don't go back for anything -run!

What is of MOST note here is that this abomination of desolation comes AFTER the gospel is preached in all nations - then the end will come. The end seems to be marked (as the beginning) with the abomination of desolation. Was the gospel preached to all nations by 70 ad? If not, the true abomination of desolation had not yet occured.

10. THEN shall the great tribulation begin (and as noted it will be something that had nor will never been before or since)
11. The 'days' will be shortened by God, else ALL (all mankind) would die.
12. If during 'that' time, anyone states here or there is Christ - don't believe them.
13. False christ and prophets will arise showing show great signs and miracles decieving, if possible, even the very elect.
... 13a. don't believe they have seen me is some distant or secret place.
14. Why? Because when He does "come" it will be like the lightning which illuminates the whole sky.
15. Immediately after the tribulation of those days (the above things that will transpire),
... 15a. The sun will be darkened,
... 15b. the moon will not shine,
... 15c. the stars will fall (meteor showers),
... 15d. and the power of the heavens will be shaken.
16. And THEN shall 'appear' the SIGN of the Son of Man in heaven
... 16a. ALL mankind will mourn
... 16b. ALL mankind will see Him
... 16c. as He will 'come' on the clouds with power and great glory.
17. Then He will send forth His angels with the sound of the trumpet to gather His elect from earth and heaven

18. When these things are seen, know the time is at hand (the end)
19. This generation shall not pass away till all is fulfilled.

Now if all of the above has already happened in 70 ad. then it was that generation, but if not, then the generation being spoken of is that generation which will see all of the above fulfilled. Some has been but not all.


You have yet to tell anyone which of these occured in the 1st century. Everyone that is brought up you argue against. So finally tell us....which verses were fulfilled???? What are the "some" you are referring to? It looks by your statement you are arguing agains any being fulfilled then at the end say "some" have. So tell us please.

These two are the same, and anyone who has studied eschatology knows many time in scripture a good portion of prophecies have dual fulfillments to them as I have shown.

Dual prophecies require an initial fulfillment. You have yet to indicate any of these have had an initial fulfillment.

 

[Grasshopper]

More of your statements:

I refute it, yes. While there were people proclaimed themselves christ's, of which I never denied,

Any objective person reading your comments would say that is not true.

Here is what you said:

Acts does not speak of many false christs nor does Josephus speak about many false christ's. Both actaully speak to false prophets and Josephus speaks of magicians as well.The terms 'seducers and imposters' typically referces to false prophets or false messengers of God. These are not the same as false christs and in fact Jesus even distinquishes between the two by stating both groups will abound.

This is an example of your vaugue and somewhat deceiving tactics. Then once confronted with the historical record, you now claim you never denied there were false christs.

speaking of Matthew 24:14:

This passage is specifically stating the gospel will be preached in/throughout the whole world, and that preaching in every place will be a testimony to them (those to whom the preaching has come) - THEN the end shall come.

As has been shown numerous times the word for world is the same one found in Romans where Paul says it has been fulfilled:

Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world (oikoumenē).

Yes, and all the apostles and their disciples though Jesus was coming back in their lifetime because it seems prophesy was being fulfilled all around them. They assumed this because when the prophesy was fulfilled according to those same prophesies,

So the apostles believed He was coming back in their lifetime because they were seeing prophecy being fulfilled. Yea, isn't that the point I've been making? What prophecies concerning His return were they seeing fulfilled?

Note that scripture is SPECIFIC that when all these things are fulfilled Jesus will come. Please to special note 'the generation' that sees all these things, they were to understand that it [the end] is near even at the doors.

So when all these things are fulfilled Jesus will come. And the generation that sees all these things were to understand the end is near. When I asked you if the end was near you replied:

Is the end near - YES!

:BangHead: Am I the only one who is seeing this?

When these things are happening (vs 6 of Mat 24) the end is near, because these things are part of what must happen before Jesus returns. Thus when they begin, though in the beginning the end is still some way off, it is still understood that the 'end - is at hand' or is definately on it's way.

You have denied verse 6 has occured yet also claim the end is near. So the end is near whether verse 6 has been fulfilled or not in your view which makes your statement above meaningless..

Oh what a tangled web we weave....

We know the end is near because prophecy is not yet fulfilled for IF it were then IMMEDIATELY...Jesus would come.

This one still makes me :laugh: