Let's Talk About the Holy Spirit

[thegospelgeek]

Dr. Walter's comments on Ephesians 4:5 ("...one baptism...") are important. If there is only one baptism, then we have to determine which baptism it is. Is it baptism in the Spirit, or water baptism?

If it is baptism in the Spirit, then what are we doing still baptizing people in water? If it is water baptism, then we have to rethink our terms when referencing the work of the Holy Spirit in regeneration. We cannot call it Spirit baptism.

It has to be water baptism, since Jesus' Commission was that believers baptize in water. Believers cannot baptize other people in the Spirit, of course.

Plenty of other threads for that discussion. Please choose one

 

[kyredneck]

Someone mind to expound on this one?:

1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper country came to Ephesus, and found certain disciples:
2 and he said unto them, Did ye receive the Holy Spirit when ye believed? And they said unto him, Nay, we did not so much as hear whether the Holy Spirit was given.
3 And he said, Into what then were ye baptized? And they said, Into John`s baptism.
4 And Paul said, John baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people that they should believe on him that should come after him, that is, on Jesus.
5 And when they heard this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. Acts 19

 

[Dr. Walter]

Someone mind to expound on this one?:

1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper country came to Ephesus, and found certain disciples:
2 and he said unto them, Did ye receive the Holy Spirit when ye believed? And they said unto him, Nay, we did not so much as hear whether the Holy Spirit was given.
3 And he said, Into what then were ye baptized? And they said, Into John`s baptism.
4 And Paul said, John baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people that they should believe on him that should come after him, that is, on Jesus.
5 And when they heard this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. Acts 19

I believe this passage refers to some who were falsely led to believe they had the baptism of John.

In verse 2 these "disciples" acknowledge they had not so much as even
"heard whether there be any Holy Ghost." This is proof they had not
been baptized by John. John's message to those he baptized always
included the Holy Spirit (Mt. 3:11). John spoke of a coming baptism in
the Spirit as Jesus reminded all his disciples (Acts 1:4-5).

In verse 3 Paul asked "unto what" were they baptized? I take this to
mean what was the distinctive objective for being baptized. I believe
this is how they took it as well. In keeping with this meaning, they
answered "unto John's baptism." They were not claiming to be baptized
by John, they were claiming their distinctive objective for being
baptized was to identify with John and his baptism. Here is the second
reason that John did not baptism them because John never had this
objective for baptizing anyone.

In verse 4 Paul defines the distinctive objectives for John baptizing
all that He baptized; (1) His was a baptism because of repentance (Mt.
3:6-8). (2) His was a baptism for those who believed in Jesus as the
Christ.


Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.


It is when "they heard this" or what John's objectives were for
baptizing they realized their baptism was not the baptism of John.
They had not been baptized by John for two clear distinct contextually
stated reasons:


1. John's message to those he baptized included the Holy Spirit and
the promise of baptism in the Spirit - THEY NEVER HEARD THIS MESSAGE


2. John's objective for baptism was for those who had repented of
their sins and believed in Jesus as the Christ - THEIR BAPTISM NEVER
HAD THIS OBJECTIVE


Now, the reason that Paul asked these questions in the first place was
because he saw something else that was VISIBLY missing in them. He did
not see the gifts of the Spirit identified with the Spirit baptism
accrediated New Testament church and which were "signs" of the
apostolic office and laying of apostolic hands (2 Cor. 12:12; Rom.
1:11). After they submitted to baptism such signs were manifested in
them (v. 6)


Finally, John's baptism is Christian baptism as they both have the
same objectives (1) for repentant sinners only; (2) for those who
believe In Jesus as the Christ only. As many fundementalists you have
a flawed understanding as to what it means to do something "in the
name" of another. It means to do it in keeping with their instructions
or as authorized by them (see Acts 4:7). John baptized in the name,
that is by the authority, in keeping with the instructions of the
TRIUNE God which sent him. He confessed Jesus as God the Son and He
confessed the Holy Spirit as God (Jn. 3:30-35). He preached the gospel
of Jesus Christ (Jn. 3:36) and he refused to baptize anyone who did
not repent (Mt. 3:6-8) or who did not believe IN JESUS as the the
Christ (Acts 19:4; Jn. 1:29; Jn. 3:36).


And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. But the Pharisees and lawyers
rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of
him. - Lk. 7:29-30

 

[Dr. Walter]

Not sure I buy into your statement that the Skekinah Glory of the Lord in the OT and Baptism in the Spirit are one and the same. Ez. tells us in Ch37 that the Glory of the LORD will return to the temple. So you either left that out or expect it in the future. I see similarities as that both signify the prersence of God, however I do not think you can say they are the same without reservations.

Yes, I believe the Ezekiel temple is yet future but the same thing occurs. This baptism in shekinah glory occurrs at what the Jews called the "dedication service" of the new house of God.

Here is the thing. In each of these cases what is being immersed and filled by the Shekinah glory is what the Bible identifies as the "house of God." The tabernacle was God's house. The temple was God's house. The church is God's house (1 Tim. 3:15).

Have you taken a look at my separate thread entitled "The house" in 1 Tim. 3:15? If not, you might take a look at it as it reinforces what I am saying here.

Another thing happened at the dedication when God took up His dwelling in the new house of God. God sent fire to kindle the altar and this fire once kindled by God was never to die out as the Priests were charged to keep it going. Not only so, but only the fire God kindled could be used to light the candlesticks, the censars or the altar of incense. Any other fire was called "strange fire." On the day of Pentecost "tongues of fire" attended the baptism in the Spirit in the upper room.

The house of God was the public place of worship where a properly qualified ministry served and properly qualified ordinances were administered and where all tithes and offerings were to be brought (Deut. 12; Mal. 3:6-10).

As such the house of God commanded a certain reverence and respect due to the special presence of God manifest in the truth maintained by the ordained ministry through the proper administration of the ordinances and instruction committed to them.

In I Timothy 3:1-13 we have the properly qualified ministry responsible to keep the fire of God's truth burning in the church and we have Paul telling a Jew (Timothy) trained in the Old Testament scriptures (2 Tim. 3:14-15) that the church is the house of God and there should be a special reverence and respect toward that house:

But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I should have told you that the following post had been written to someone else and I just copied and repasted here. I was not referring to "you" or anyone else on this forum. I had been dealing with a very antagonistic person and that is the "you" in the latter part of this post I am addressing. Sorry, if you were offended by it.

I believe this passage refers to some who were falsely led to believe they had the baptism of John.

In verse 2 these "disciples" acknowledge they had not so much as even
"heard whether there be any Holy Ghost." This is proof they had not
been baptized by John. John's message to those he baptized always
included the Holy Spirit (Mt. 3:11). John spoke of a coming baptism in
the Spirit as Jesus reminded all his disciples (Acts 1:4-5).

In verse 3 Paul asked "unto what" were they baptized? I take this to
mean what was the distinctive objective for being baptized. I believe
this is how they took it as well. In keeping with this meaning, they
answered "unto John's baptism." They were not claiming to be baptized
by John, they were claiming their distinctive objective for being
baptized was to identify with John and his baptism. Here is the second
reason that John did not baptism them because John never had this
objective for baptizing anyone.

In verse 4 Paul defines the distinctive objectives for John baptizing
all that He baptized; (1) His was a baptism because of repentance (Mt.
3:6-8). (2) His was a baptism for those who believed in Jesus as the
Christ.


Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.


It is when "they heard this" or what John's objectives were for
baptizing they realized their baptism was not the baptism of John.
They had not been baptized by John for two clear distinct contextually
stated reasons:


1. John's message to those he baptized included the Holy Spirit and
the promise of baptism in the Spirit - THEY NEVER HEARD THIS MESSAGE


2. John's objective for baptism was for those who had repented of
their sins and believed in Jesus as the Christ - THEIR BAPTISM NEVER
HAD THIS OBJECTIVE


Now, the reason that Paul asked these questions in the first place was
because he saw something else that was VISIBLY missing in them. He did
not see the gifts of the Spirit identified with the Spirit baptism
accrediated New Testament church and which were "signs" of the
apostolic office and laying of apostolic hands (2 Cor. 12:12; Rom.
1:11). After they submitted to baptism such signs were manifested in
them (v. 6)


Finally, John's baptism is Christian baptism as they both have the
same objectives (1) for repentant sinners only; (2) for those who
believe In Jesus as the Christ only. As many fundementalists you have
a flawed understanding as to what it means to do something "in the
name" of another. It means to do it in keeping with their instructions
or as authorized by them (see Acts 4:7). John baptized in the name,
that is by the authority, in keeping with the instructions of the
TRIUNE God which sent him. He confessed Jesus as God the Son and He
confessed the Holy Spirit as God (Jn. 3:30-35). He preached the gospel
of Jesus Christ (Jn. 3:36) and he refused to baptize anyone who did
not repent (Mt. 3:6-8) or who did not believe IN JESUS as the the
Christ (Acts 19:4; Jn. 1:29; Jn. 3:36).


And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. But the Pharisees and lawyers
rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of
him. - Lk. 7:29-30

 

[thegospelgeek]

I should have told you that the following post had been written to someone else and I just copied and repasted here. I was not referring to "you" or anyone else on this forum. I had been dealing with a very antagonistic person and that is the "you" in the latter part of this post I am addressing. Sorry, if you were offended by it.

Never gave it a thought.

So now that you have apologized for offending me in advance, I guess you have a free one coming :smilewinkgrin: