Bacon eaters! Do you see?

[steaver]

Since you decline to answer my previous questions - how about this --

Could you bring yourself to present your "have you ever sinned" question into something like a Biblically-relevant point?

In other words - are you really to trying out (testing out) the idea that the disciples were supposed to reject the teaching of Christ in Matt 22 when He said that they were to "Love the Lord with all your heart" (Deut 6:5) and "Love your neighbor as yourself" (Lev 19:18) by responding "Oh no Lord we cannot choose to listen to the Word of God or honor the Commandments of God now - after all - we sinned yesterday. Come back some week when we have stopped sinning and talk to us about your Word then.".

Because if you are really trying to go down that kind of road - I think we would all like to know what in the world causes you to think that is helping your case.

in Christ,

Bob

I did answer your question. I said "neither".

SDA teaching claims that one who is truly a Christian will NOT disobey one of God's commandments that he or she has knowledge of. I would like to know if you personally have past their test.

So I asked,

How long have you been a Christian?

Have you known a commandment of God since and chose to break it?

How long now since your last known sin of choice, knowing the commandment prior to the sin?

:jesus:

 

[BobRyan]

BTW, Bob, even if your interpretation were correct you would still be limited to one type of cloth (mixed or not). Which material or type of cloth are you wearing today? I hope it is just one.

Again - your lack of attention to detail is showing.

Even in the OT the priests wore both linen and wool - as seperate garments at the same time. What they did not do - is mix the two in one single garment.

But here again - you are not answering the basic challenge to your rabbit trail. Is it your purpose "at best" to claim "I want you to stop paying attnention to God's Word in Lev 11 if you are in any way missing something in Deut 22 - because the solution is simply to ignore the Word of God"??

Is that really the road you are going down?

Amazing!!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I did answer your question. I said "neither".

SDA teaching claims that one who is truly a Christian will NOT disobey one of God's commandments that he or she has knowledge of. I would like to know if you personally have past their test.

So I asked,

How long have you been a Christian?

Have you known a commandment of God since and chose to break it?

How long now since your last known sin of choice, knowing the commandment prior to the sin?

Turns out we have published our list of 28 Fundamental beliefs. you have now "invented one" that says that Adventists will never sin.

Please show us where you dug that one up.

(Or are you just trying to derail your own thread?)


:godisgood:
in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Since Steaver is not able to remember being asked these questions 2 or 3 times already -- I am posting them "again" -- hoping we can get an answer.

================

The Apostle John writes -


Quote:
Originally Posted by Apostle John
1John 2
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.[/b]
4 The one who says, "" I have come to know Him,'' and [b]does not keep His commandments, is a liar[/b], and the truth is not in him;
5 but whoever keeps His word[/b], in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.[/b]


And Steaver immediately complains...

steaver
In one breath you say one must keep the law else they are liars

Take it up with scripture -- you have chosen to place yourself in opposition to the sola-scriptura position merely by reason of "complaint".

=======================

This is a good point to stop and let Steaver respond to the question above explaining just how is question is in harmony with John's statement in 1John 2.



Continuing on...

Quote:
In the next breath you say one CANNOT keep the law and thus need Jesus Christ.

The "one" I speak of - is the Romans 3 - lost soul.

Is it your intent to pretend that you think of all saints as merely lost souls - without the new creation, without the Romans 8 Holy Spirit?

without the ability to respond as Christ stated in John 14 "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments"?

==============================

Here again we need to give Steaver a chance to respond - to explain just how he imagines the disciples were supposed to say "no Christ we cannot do any such thing - so now we will ignore what you have said"

Or is there some other response that Steaver suggests for them??

Just curious how this works out in Steaver's model.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Turns out we have published our list of 28 Fundamental beliefs. you have now "invented one" that says that Adventists will never sin.

Please show us where you dug that one up.

(Or are you just trying to derail your own thread?)


:godisgood:
in Christ,

Bob

Maybe you need to read the OP again. I am right on topic.

OP;

There is a sect of Christians, Seventh Day Adventist, who preach that a (professing) Christian who says that they see Lev 11 forbids the eating of swine but they choose to eat it anyways is in rebellion against God and therefore found to be a liar.

Here is a quote from an SDA supporter;


Quote:
BobRyan;
In answer to your hypothetical (of the form) -- someone says "I see that God does not want me to eat diseased flesh and rat sandwiches when I read Leviticus 11 - but I don't care what God says - I like doing what I am doing and God is not going to stop ME" -

I gave the answer:

They have a problem right then and there - it does not matter if they "die the next day from eating that diseased flesh" or not.

As well as the confirming Bible answer

Quote:
Christ said in Matt 7 "not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who DOES the will of My Father".

In Romans 2 Paul says "it is not the HEARERS of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL BE JUSTIFIED".

John says "The one who SAYS that he knows Christ and does not KEEP His commandments is a liar" 1 John 2.

(The list of these texts is pretty long - hopefully you get the idea.)

Turns out that open willful rebellion against the Word of God is not one of the fruits of the Spirit listed in Gal 5.
in Christ,

Now can you answer my questions or do they place you in a uncomfortable spot?

:jesus:

 

[BobRyan]

Continuing on with the list of questions - still waiting for Steaver to address -

As I said --


I am pleased to see you find a portion of truth in your argument. The Law is not "a savior" it does not "Save from sin".

And all mankind are sinners (Romans 3). thus we cannot "Love God with all our heart" Deut 6:5 so as to be without need of a Savior.

Neither can we "Love our neighbor as ourselves" Lev 19:18 so as to have no need of a Savior.

Neither can we obey the Acts 15 command to Gentiles commanding that they follow the Levitical law agains eating animals that have been strangled so perfectly that we need no savior.

Circling back to the fact that we are all in need of a Savior any time you find some part of God's Word that you want to ignore - does nothing to establish your "saints must be in nonstop rebellion" style argument such that we should ignore these statements in God's Word telling us not to eat rats, or telling us to Love God and Love our Neighbor - telling us not to eat animals that have been strangled ... etc.

There I show the perfect balance between the Bible fact of the lost condition of man - in rebellion vs the Bible fact of the saved condition that enables the Romans 6 and 1John 2:1 teaching of non-stop victory over sin. For you may wish to complain that John says "I write these things to you that you sin not" and you may wish to complain that Paul writes in Romans 6 that "sin shall not be master over you" -- yet the scripture is clear no matter your complaints against it.

The appeal on your part to the Romans 3 lost condition of man - as the only condition that you understand for the saints - tells more about the lengths to which you will go in your argument so that you can pick-and-choose in the Bible what commands you will accept and what commands you will choose to ignore.

So Steaver, I know you do not actually believe what you are pretending to believe in your complaint above - you only do it because you think it serves your purpose for the moment.

Stopping here again - to see if Steaver can bring himself to address the point above.

Are you stuck dealing with just the "lost condition" or are you insisting that born again saints should ALSO ignore the command to Love God given by Christ in Matt 22 and James in James 2 -- using the excuse that "oops! - we were not sinless yesterday"?

======================



in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Since Steaver is not able to remember being asked these questions 2 or 3 times already -- I am posting them "again" -- hoping we can get an answer.

================

Originally Posted by Bob

The Apostle John writes -


Quote:
Originally Posted by Apostle John
1John 2
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.[/b]
4 The one who says, "" I have come to know Him,'' and [b]does not keep His commandments, is a liar[/b], and the truth is not in him;
5 but whoever keeps His word[/b], in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.[/b]


And Steaver immediately complains...

Quote:

steaver
In one breath you say one must keep the law else they are liars
Take it up with scripture -- you have chosen to place yourself in opposition to the sola-scriptura position merely by reason of "complaint".

=======================

This is a good point to stop and let Steaver respond to the question above explaining just how is question is in harmony with John's statement in 1John 2.




in Christ,

Bob

Does anyone see a question at this "good point to stop"?

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

Since Steaver is not able to remember being asked these questions 2 or 3 times already -- I am posting them "again" -- hoping we can get an answer.

================

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steaver
Quote:
In the next breath you say one CANNOT keep the law and thus need Jesus Christ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob
The "one" I speak of - is the Romans 3 - lost soul.

Is it your intent to pretend that you think of all saints as merely lost souls - without the new creation, without the Romans 8 Holy Spirit?

without the ability to respond as Christ stated in John 14 "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments"?

=======================


in Christ,

Bob

No.

:jesus:

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by steaver
I did answer your question. I said "neither".

SDA teaching claims that one who is truly a Christian will NOT disobey one of God's commandments that he or she has knowledge of. I would like to know if you personally have past their test.

So I asked,

How long have you been a Christian?

Have you known a commandment of God since and chose to break it?

How long now since your last known sin of choice, knowing the commandment prior to the sin?

Turns out we have published our list of 28 Fundamental beliefs. you have now "invented one" that says that Adventists will never sin.

Please show us where you dug that one up.

Still waiting for an answer to that one...




======================================

Also still waiting for an answer to this one- since nothing in the OP quotes me as saying that Adventists never have sinned.

(Or are you just trying to derail your own thread?)

waiting....

Waiting...

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Since Steaver is not able to remember being asked these questions 2 or 3 times already -- I am posting them "again" -- hoping we can get an answer.

================

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob

The Apostle John writes -


Quote:
Originally Posted by Apostle John
1John 2
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.[/b]
4 The one who says, "" I have come to know Him,'' and [b]does not keep His commandments, is a liar[/b], and the truth is not in him;
5 but whoever keeps His word[/b], in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.[/b]


And Steaver immediately complains...

Quote:

steaver
In one breath you say one must keep the law else they are liars

Take it up with scripture -- you have chosen to place yourself in opposition to the sola-scriptura position merely by reason of "complaint".

=======================

This is a good point to stop and let Steaver respond to the question above explaining just how is question is in harmony with John's statement in 1John 2.

Does anyone see a question at this "good point to stop"?

:jesus:

Feel free to explain why you are addressing me as if I wrote 1 John 2 - instead of phrasing your question "GODS' WORD says we are liars if we claim to know Christ and yet do not keep His Commandments".

Were you thinking that I am a bible writer?

Are you hoping to dodge the question entirely so that you will not have to explain your methods?

Curious minds want to know

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Continuing on with the list of questions - still waiting for Steaver to address -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob
As I said --


I am pleased to see you find a portion of truth in your argument. The Law is not "a savior" it does not "Save from sin".

And all mankind are sinners (Romans 3). thus we cannot "Love God with all our heart" Deut 6:5 so as to be without need of a Savior.

Neither can we "Love our neighbor as ourselves" Lev 19:18 so as to have no need of a Savior.

Neither can we obey the Acts 15 command to Gentiles commanding that they follow the Levitical law agains eating animals that have been strangled so perfectly that we need no savior.

Circling back to the fact that we are all in need of a Savior any time you find some part of God's Word that you want to ignore - does nothing to establish your "saints must be in nonstop rebellion" style argument such that we should ignore these statements in God's Word telling us not to eat rats, or telling us to Love God and Love our Neighbor - telling us not to eat animals that have been strangled ... etc.

There I show the perfect balance between the Bible fact of the lost condition of man - in rebellion vs the Bible fact of the saved condition that enables the Romans 6 and 1John 2:1 teaching of non-stop victory over sin. For you may wish to complain that John says "I write these things to you that you sin not" and you may wish to complain that Paul writes in Romans 6 that "sin shall not be master over you" -- yet the scripture is clear no matter your complaints against it.

The appeal on your part to the Romans 3 lost condition of man - as the only condition that you understand for the saints - tells more about the lengths to which you will go in your argument so that you can pick-and-choose in the Bible what commands you will accept and what commands you will choose to ignore.

So Steaver, I know you do not actually believe what you are pretending to believe in your complaint above - you only do it because you think it serves your purpose for the moment.

in Christ,

Bob

Still no question asked.

Stopping here again - to see if Steaver can bring himself to address the point above.

Are you stuck dealing with just the "lost condition" or are you insisting that born again saints should ALSO ignore the command to Love God given by Christ in Matt 22 and James in James 2 -- using the excuse that "oops! - we were not sinless yesterday"?

Ok, now we have a question added to the rhetoric.

Neither.

I can answer questions all day long for you. Why can't you do the same? It is called "hypocritical" (I believe that is a sin) to call for another to answer questions when you yourself refuse. Did you know that being a hypocrite is sin against God? By SDA doctrine you are not a Christian if you know being a hypocrite is sin and you choose to wallow in it.

:jesus:

 

[BobRyan]

here we go "again".

(I think Steaver likes being asked the same question 3 or 4 times before he answers with something close to an explanation for his positions and how they fit with the Bible)

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Since Steaver is not able to remember being asked these questions 2 or 3 times already -- I am posting them "again" -- hoping we can get an answer.

================

Originally Posted by Steaver
In the next breath you say one CANNOT keep the law and thus need Jesus Christ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob
The "one" I speak of - is the Romans 3 - lost soul.

Is it your intent to pretend that you think of all saints as merely lost souls - without the new creation, without the Romans 8 Holy Spirit?

without the ability to respond as Christ stated in John 14 "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments"?

=======================


in Christ,

Bob

No.

:jesus:

So now you say that saints ARE NOT to be viewed as those who must fail to honor Christ's command in 1John 14:15.

How so given your statements so far?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I am pleased to see you find a portion of truth in your argument. The Law is not "a savior" it does not "Save from sin".

And all mankind are sinners (Romans 3). thus we cannot "Love God with all our heart" Deut 6:5 so as to be without need of a Savior.

Neither can we "Love our neighbor as ourselves" Lev 19:18 so as to have no need of a Savior.

Neither can we obey the Acts 15 command to Gentiles commanding that they follow the Levitical law agains eating animals that have been strangled so perfectly that we need no savior.

Circling back to the fact that we are all in need of a Savior any time you find some part of God's Word that you want to ignore - does nothing to establish your "saints must be in nonstop rebellion" style argument such that we should ignore these statements in God's Word telling us not to eat rats, or telling us to Love God and Love our Neighbor - telling us not to eat animals that have been strangled ... etc.

There I show the perfect balance between the Bible fact of the lost condition of man - in rebellion vs the Bible fact of the saved condition that enables the Romans 6 and 1John 2:1 teaching of non-stop victory over sin. For you may wish to complain that John says "I write these things to you that you sin not" and you may wish to complain that Paul writes in Romans 6 that "sin shall not be master over you" -- yet the scripture is clear no matter your complaints against it.

The appeal on your part to the Romans 3 lost condition of man - as the only condition that you understand for the saints - tells more about the lengths to which you will go in your argument so that you can pick-and-choose in the Bible what commands you will accept and what commands you will choose to ignore.

So Steaver, I know you do not actually believe what you are pretending to believe in your complaint above - you only do it because you think it serves your purpose for the moment.

Stopping here again - to see if Steaver can bring himself to address the point above.

Are you stuck dealing with just the "lost condition" or are you insisting that born again saints should ALSO ignore the command to Love God given by Christ in Matt 22 and James in James 2 -- using the excuse that "oops! - we were not sinless yesterday"?

I can answer questions all day long for you.

Apparently not.

Is there some magic number of times that I must ask this question before you will cease ducking it??

Just curious.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Again - your lack of attention to detail is showing.

Even in the OT the priests wore both linen and wool - as seperate garments at the same time. What they did not do - is mix the two in one single garment.

But here again - you are not answering the basic challenge to your rabbit trail. Is it your purpose "at best" to claim "I want you to stop paying attnention to God's Word in Lev 11 if you are in any way missing something in Deut 22 - because the solution is simply to ignore the Word of God"??

Is that really the road you are going down?

Amazing!!

in Christ,

Bob

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

The "road" is that it is impossible for you to keep the law, as both Paul and James testify to, and as I have demonstrated. You simply demonstrated that you cannot exegete the Scriptures or rightly divide the Word of Truth. You demonstrate that you are a hypocrite by picking and choosing which parts of the law you wish to obey (parts of the Levitical dietary laws) and which parts of the law you wish to disobey (Deu.22:11)

Now when it comes to Deu.22:11 give me your interpretation, and:
1. how the nation of Israel had to apply it in their day, and:
2. how you should apply it likewise in this day.

If the dietary laws are still applicable so is this law. So tell me how you apply this law to your daily life.

 

[BobRyan]

SDA's look upon me according to my answers as hell bound. My belief in Christ to them is a lie.

How does the board feel about these SDA standards?

:jesus:

I am curious how you justify making stuff up out of thin air and then accusing me of thinking whatever you manage to dream up.

Is that something you learn over time where you live?

Just curious.

(BTW - your claim that the OP has some evidence proof or even statement about SDAs claiming to never sin did not pan out -- were you thinking about some other thread? Or are you simply trying to derail this one even though it is your own thread?)

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

The "road" is that it is impossible for you to keep the law, as both Paul and James testify to, and as I have demonstrated.

We both agree that all makind are sinners in their lost condition.

Having said that --

Paul argues the opposite point. In 1Cor 7:19 Paul argues that "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

Just when you wanted Paul's council to the saints to be "what matters is not paying attention to the Word of God if you find commandments of God there".

You simply demonstrated that you cannot exegete the Scriptures or rightly divide the Word of Truth. You demonstrate that you are a hypocrite by picking and choosing which parts of the law you wish to obey (parts of the Levitical dietary laws) and which parts of the law you wish to disobey (Deu.22:11)

Is it your argument that you ignore God's Word telling you to Love God with all your heart - the same way you admit to ignoring Deut 22:11?

Is that really "your teaching"?

Even though Christ flatly condemns it in Matt 5 as does Paul in Romans 6?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Is it your argument that you ignore God's Word telling you to Love God with all your heart - the same way you admit to ignoring Deut 22:11?

Is that really "your teaching"?

Even though Christ flatly condemns it in Matt 5 as does Paul in Romans 6?

in Christ,

Bob

Bob I have asked you a simple question. Here it is again:

Now when it comes to Deu.22:11 give me your interpretation, and:
1. how the nation of Israel had to apply it in their day, and:
2. how you should apply it likewise in this day.

If the dietary laws are still applicable so is this law. So tell me how you apply this law to your daily life?

One doesn't answer a question with a question, nor by changing the topic. Now try again. See if you can answer the question.

 

[steaver]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Feel free to explain why you are addressing me as if I wrote 1 John 2 - instead of phrasing your question "GODS' WORD says we are liars if we claim to know Christ and yet do not keep His Commandments".

Were you thinking that I am a bible writer?

Are you hoping to dodge the question entirely so that you will not have to explain your methods?

Curious minds want to know

in Christ,

Bob

If you want questions answered you have to "ask" a question.

Now I see you have added some questions so I will give an answer.

Were you thinking that I am a bible writer?

No.

Are you hoping to dodge the question entirely so that you will not have to explain your methods?

No.

Feel free to explain why you are addressing me as if I wrote 1 John 2 - instead of phrasing your question "GODS' WORD says we are liars if we claim to know Christ and yet do not keep His Commandments".

This is not a question, but since you have extended an offer of freedom here I will help you out.

1 John 2 is the perfect word of God. The SDA application of this passage against the grace of God is an abomination and constitutes "another gospel".

The "commandments" spoken of here include confession to those commandments we transgress as Christians.

1Jo 2:1¶My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

If A Christian could NOT disobey a known commandment there would be no commandment given to "sin not" and a solution given for the transgession.

1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Jam 5:16Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.


Many of the SDA errors stem out of not understanding the foundation of grace.

:jesus:

 

[DHK]

Bob says

Paul argues the opposite point. In 1Cor 7:19 Paul argues that "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

He stresses the importance of the law.
However, when it comes to this verse:

Deuteronomy 22:11 Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together.
--Bob dismisses it altogether as not being important for the Greatest Commandment of love is more important. What amazing hypocrisy is shown here.
Pork is as important as love.
Clothing is not as important as love.
Pay attention to your pork but not to your clothing. Maybe that is what Bob is teaching. But the Bible doesn't teach it.

 

[steaver]

I am curious how you justify making stuff up out of thin air and then accusing me of thinking whatever you manage to dream up.

Is that something you learn over time where you live?

Just curious.

(BTW - your claim that the OP has some evidence proof or even statement about SDAs claiming to never sin did not pan out -- were you thinking about some other thread? Or are you simply trying to derail this one even though it is your own thread?)

in Christ,

Bob

This would come from a known SDA supporters words and application of scripture to a question asked.

BobRyan;
In answer to your hypothetical (of the form) -- someone says "I see that God does not want me to eat diseased flesh and rat sandwiches when I read Leviticus 11 - but I don't care what God says - I like doing what I am doing and God is not going to stop ME" -

I gave the answer:

They have a problem right then and there - it does not matter if they "die the next day from eating that diseased flesh" or not.

As well as the confirming Bible answer

Quote:
Christ said in Matt 7 "not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who DOES the will of My Father".

In Romans 2 Paul says "it is not the HEARERS of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL BE JUSTIFIED".

John says "The one who SAYS that he knows Christ and does not KEEP His commandments is a liar" 1 John 2.

(The list of these texts is pretty long - hopefully you get the idea.)

Turns out that open willful rebellion against the Word of God is not one of the fruits of the Spirit listed in Gal 5.
in Christ,

This answer is clear SDA theology which can only be concluded as anyone professing to be a Christian and disobeys a known commandment is not truly a Christian.

It is your own words! No thin air, maybe some hot air, but taken directly from an SDA. That would be YOU!

:jesus: