A question about Messianic Jews.

[Thinkingstuff]

Adventists do not celebrate the ceremonial law.

For Adventists the New Covenant "has value" such that the Law of God (as Jeremiah knew it in Jer 31:33) is written on the heart and mind just as Heb 8:7-10 states.

Thus as Paul said in 1Cor 7:19 "but what matters is keeping the Commandments of God".

If you want to spin his statement as "Judiazing" feel free - but the sola scriptura model works better in my POV.

BTW I am more than a little surprised to find that Adventists are now a larger denomination world wide than Southern Baptists
http://www.adherents.com/adh_rb.html

When I first began looking into these topics of difference Adventists were only about half that size.

in Christ,

Bob

The path is narrow my friend. :laugh:

 

[BobRyan]

You're telling me - I used to say that about Southern Baptist. oops!

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I think you're right. They've seemed to move from a charasmatic church with trappings of judaism that aren't based on anything really legalistic. to a view of following the law as specified in Torah. There is a term used called "one law" that expresses this view and I wonder how this doctrine works and is it a way back into what the judaizers were attempting to accomplish.

If this group is in the bonds of the judaizing legalism as we suppose, then it will eventually come out that one cannot be saved unless he/she follow the Law of Moses. I suppose they would even get back to the necessity of circumcision to be saved.

If such a thing does happen, then there will be no doubt as to what spirit they are of.

 

[billwald]

What does "written on the heart" mean?

If something is written on the heart should it be necessary to carry it around in book form? For example, the multiplication table up to ten times ten could be said to be written on the heart for many people, yes? Can somethiing be written on the heart and not in memory?

 

[steaver]

BTW I am more than a little surprised to find that Adventists are now a larger denomination world wide than Southern Baptists
http://www.adherents.com/adh_rb.html

When I first began looking into these topics of difference Adventists were only about half that size.
in Christ,

Bob

This should raise a red flag for you.

1Ti 4:1¶Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

 

[steaver]

What does "written on the heart" mean?

If something is written on the heart should it be necessary to carry it around in book form? For example, the multiplication table up to ten times ten could be said to be written on the heart for many people, yes? Can somethiing be written on the heart and not in memory?

It means your newly created heart/spirit (regeneration) has the love of God's law through Jesus Christ as part of your very being. Loving God and loving each other.

God has provided both the Holy Spirit and His written Word to teach us His righteousness.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God. When one receives Jesus Christ one receives the Word or Law written on their heart. This is what keeps them sealed and saved forever. The Spirit is forever testifying to spirit prompting the believer to keep the commandments of God for their good, not for their justification. Faith alone justifies.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
BTW I am more than a little surprised to find that Adventists are now a larger denomination world wide than Southern Baptists
http://www.adherents.com/adh_rb.html

When I first began looking into these topics of difference Adventists were only about half that size.

This should raise a red flag for you.

1Ti 4:1¶Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

If your argument is that any denomination that gets to the size of the Southern Baptists should be concerned that doctrines of demons might come in the last days diverting them from their initial course --

Then warning taken.



in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I would like to know your experience how the SDA have an Open Pact with the RCC and how their every day life and teaching. I would really be interested to hear. I have a friend of the family - a grandmother figure for me - who was SDA and she is one of the most remarkable women I have ever met. She displayed Jesus Christ better than anyone I have ever met. Even though I wasn't related to her she always treated me like family - especially since I'm 1/2 latin and she was caucasian. Rather than looking down on my heritage she treated me well and always had me on her lap telling me about Jesus. She was a great cook and never used meat and she was really involved in her church and the times I visited her church I didn't notice any weird teachings or things that I associate with the doctrine of the legalistic standing of the sda's. So pleace tell me what your experiences were. I'd like to know. I do know they have problems with the doctrines of grace but do you have more info on them?

GE:
So did I have Seventh-day Adventist parents who both were the personification of Christian love. Only good can be told about them; only praise become them. Until we shall meet again on the New Earth.

That does not mean the SDA 'Church' is not what it is; that cannot determine the SDA 'Church' is not Babylon and antichrist. That can only mean the Day of Judgment shall show its wages for having misled the best of men - not away from God, because that is impossible; but away from the freedom and delight of true Christian Faith. You cannot get an idea how my parents had to suffer because of Seventh-day Adventism.

But that too, is not why the SDA 'Church' is what it is; a den of thieves and hypocrites. Until this day the SDA 'Church' has not given account of the wealth involved with the selling of Wessel's farm in the Transvaal.

But even that, is not why the SDA 'Church' is what it is. And the list can go on for ever. And still it won't be why the SDA 'Church' is what it is: antichrist and Babylon. Because the SDA Church is the witches' cauldron of false doctrines; that's why. More secret than the Jesuits or Masons they colaborate with and serve the pope .... seen in their treatment they give the Scriptures 'doctrinally' as well as strategically in the task of translation behind their decoy of anti-Roman Catholicism ralying and railing.

I have no proof but what I SEE, that the SDA 'Church' have made a pact with the Jesuits and the 'pope' so to speak in the matter of translating and criticism of translation of the Bible and doctrines propagated. Their 'Clear Word Bible' is only the EYEBLINDER of what is going on behind the scenes.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

It means your newly created heart/spirit (regeneration) has the love of God's law through Jesus Christ as part of your very being. Loving God and loving each other.

God has provided both the Holy Spirit and His written Word to teach us His righteousness.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God. When one receives Jesus Christ one receives the Word or Law written on their heart. This is what keeps them sealed and saved forever. The Spirit is forever testifying to spirit prompting the believer to keep the commandments of God for their good, not for their justification. Faith alone justifies.

Amen!
See how furious are the SDAs because of this? You won't see it; but they ARE, furious! BE a Seventh-day Adventist and believe this and proclaim it, and you WILL know how, furious, they can get.

 

[billwald]

>Originally Posted by BobRyan
>Adventists do not celebrate the ceremonial law.

Worshipping every Sat is not a ceremony?

 

[BobRyan]

>Originally Posted by BobRyan
>Adventists do not celebrate the ceremonial law.

Worshipping every Sat is not a ceremony?

No more than worshipping every Sunday - or prayer meeting every Wednesday as D.L Moody points out.

God - as Creator established His creation memorial holy day - in Eden "making it holy" Gen 2:1-3. Isaiah 66 points to it as a day of worship for all mankind - even in the New Earth - long after all animal sacrifices are ended.

Is 66 "from Sabbath to Sabbath... shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship".

Gentiles were considered part of "mankind" in the OT.

Mark 2:27 "The Sabbath was made for MANKIND"

Gentiles were considered part of "mankind" in the NT

Gen 2:1-3 God rested on the seventh-day and made it HOLY in Eden itself. Adam was not a Jew.

Is 56 has a specific blessing for gentiles who choose to worship God and honor the Creator of mankind by keeping the Lord's Holy day.
6 ""Also the FOREIGNERS who join themselves to the LORD, To minister to Him, and to love the name of the LORD, To be His servants, every one who keeps from profaning THE Sabbath And holds fast My covenant;
7 Even those I will bring to My holy mountain And make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar; For My house will be called a house of prayer for ALL the PEOPLES.''

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I too am SDA I too would like to know about the "open pact" that I have with the RCC.

This would be facinating story for me as well.:type:

The alternative is to simply argue positions "sola scriptura" - but that is another subject.

(This is the Messianic Jews thread -- right?)

in Christ,

Bob

GE:
Why do you think the RCC has given the SDAs free reign; has NEVER opposed them in their propagation of the Law? Because, have you ever seen a SDA opposing the RCC for corrupting the Holy Scriptures so with regard to each and every 'Sabbath' and 'First Day' en even 'the third day' texts in the New Testament?

Why do the SDAs shout murder when the RCC Church hundreds of years ago changed the Fourth Commandment; but they in their own 'version' of the Bible mutelated the Law unrecognisable and never raised alarm against said changes made in their own day in the Scriptures by the RCC? Which changes the SDAs neatly packaged well protected in their own doctrines, publications and confessions which PERMEATE everything that is 'Seventh-day Adventist' --- I have given you SCORES of pertinent PROOFS of your open pact with RCatholicism. The very FACT YOU CLOSED YOUR EYES TO THEM ALL PROVES THE OPENNESS OF YOUR PACT WITH RCatholicism. Your pretending your IGNORANCE in these matters betrays your INVOLVEMENT.

Whom do you once again here want to deceive that there does not exist a pact of unholy PEACE between yourselves and the RCC?

The day the SDA Church will begin to tackle the Sunday-resurrection claims of Roman Catholicism for their hallowing of Sunday, that day, i will retract my accusation against them. But I know, that day shall never come. Because it entails a truce closer than between the Jesuits and the RCC and the pope.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

This very “fascinating story” indeed began in Reformation times. It can be read in the writings of the Puritans, and in the history of the Seventh Day Baptists. AND IT WAS WRITTEN IN THE BEGINNINGS OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS. And it can be read in their publications of every decade thereafter. I have a bit on my shelves, D.F. Nicol, e.g.. And as recently as Samuele Bacchiocchi who to me personally admitted the early Seventh-day Adventists did not pay proper attention to the issue when they paid attention to it.

So, do not say you don't know the story BobRyan; you can fool most most of the time; not everyone every time.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

This very “fascinating story” indeed began in Reformation times. It can be read in the writings of the Puritans, and in the history of the Seventh Day Baptists. AND IT WAS WRITTEN IN THE BEGINNINGS OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS. And it can be read in their publications of every decade thereafter. I have a bit on my shelves, D.F. Nicol, e.g.. And as recently as Samuele Bacchiocchi who to me personally admitted the early Seventh-day Adventists did not pay proper attention to the issue when they paid attention to it.

So, do not say you don't know the story BobRyan; you can fool most most of the time; not everyone every time.

I must admit Gehard that this is a little above my head. Can you direct me to the liturature you speak of? Thank you. or baie dankie.

 

[Chowmah]

GE:
Far worse, Thinkingstuff, FAR WORSE! The Seventh-day Adventists are in OPEN PACT with Roman Catholocism to destroy the "times and Law" of God as Jesus Christ BECAME it; in other words, plainly, the SDAs are in cahoots with antichrist. ABSOLUTELY. I have had a life's experience for PROOF, confirmed by their EVERY DAY life and teaching. They are greater antichrists than the pope and his cohorts could dream.

Daniel 7:23-25
Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. [24] And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. [25] And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

So you think the 7th day adventist and the catholics are the 4th beast? Yeah, the only commandment that has time involved is the sabbath and that was changed by the catholic church but where do the 7th dayers partake of this dasterdly deed?

 

[Dr. Walter]

Daniel 7:23-25
Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. [24] And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. [25] And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

So you think the 7th day adventist and the catholics are the 4th beast? Yeah, the only commandment that has time involved is the sabbath and that was changed by the catholic church but where do the 7th dayers partake of this dasterdly deed?

I personally believe all false religion is described in the metaphor of the Great Whore and her harlot daughters in Rev. 17-18.

False institutionalized religion is contrasted to New Testament churches in Rev. 17-21.

1. As women (harlot versus bride)
2. As cities (worldly city versus heavenly city)
3. As occupied by saints (unfaithful -Rev. 18:4; faithful - Rev. 19:6-7).

Both Rome and SDA are corrupted and false religions who preach "another gospel" and thus accursed. They preach a gospel of Christ PLUS law keeping in order to finally be justified before God. They reject Jesus Christ and repudiate the Biblical grace of God.

 

[Chowmah]

But the new testament tells us we are to keep Gods 10 commandments

 

[Dr. Walter]

But the new testament tells us we are to keep Gods 10 commandments

I know of NOT ONE human being since Adam to the present who has ever kept even ONE of the commandments and neither does Paul know of even ONE (other than Christ)

"There is NONE that doeth good, no, NOT ONE."

To keep the ten commandments for justification before God you cannot "come short" but must be "perfect" in keeping EVERY POINT of the Law as to come short in one point is to fall under the classification of a "sinner" and under the condemnation and wrath of the Law.

In regard to justification before God or entrance into heaven Jesus says, that unless YOUR RIGHTEOUESNESS "exceed" the righteousness of the scribes and pharisees you will in "NO CASE ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN" (Mt. 5:20). Then after giving the proper intrepretation of law keeping (Mt. 5:22-45) he reveals exactly the level of obedience required - "Be ye therefore PERFECT even as your Father in heaven IS PERFECT."

This is God's one and only standard of law keeping that God approves to be justified in his sight and for entrance into heaven.

Now, either you must trust Christ to have FINISHED - FULFILLED - PAID IN FULL and thus "THE END" of the law for righteousness are you are a lost religious person right this moment.

If you have trusted Christ to completely satisifed all the demands of the law for you than to keep the law for justification is to repudiate Christ and His finished work.

Hence, the Christian is not commanded to keep the commandments of God FOR JUSTIFICATION but for some other reason, NOT FOR ENTRANCE INTO HEAVEN but for some other reason, NOT FOR APPROVAL BEFORE GOD but for some other reason!

Do you know that reason????

 

[Dr. Walter]

But the new testament tells us we are to keep Gods 10 commandments

That reason is two fold!

1. For the glory of God - I Cor. 10:31

2. For the good of yourself and others - love - Mt. 7:12

 

[Chowmah]

Dr Walter
Then you are saying we christians are to keep the 10 commandments