A question about Messianic Jews.

[Dr. Walter]

Dr Walter
Then you are saying we christians are to keep the 10 commandments

Certainly! But my friend under new covenant the fourth commandment has a new application. See the thread on the fourth commandment.

 

[Chowmah]

I looked at the thread you started on the 4th commandment and it seems to be a thread full of word games with little of the Word. According to the scriptues of the new covenant we are to be keeping Gods sabbath day. Not the day of rest man came up with.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I looked at the thread you started on the 4th commandment and it seems to be a thread full of word games with little of the Word. According to the scriptues of the new covenant we are to be keeping Gods sabbath day. Not the day of rest man came up with.

You obviously did not read much or did not understand the evidence presented. I suggest you go back and read the evidences I presented. No one has been able to overthrow those evidences including you as you have no responses just baseless accusations.

The bottom line is that the fourth commandment includes more reasons for its observation than seven day creation. In Deuteronomy five the redemption of Israel is given as the ONLY reason for its observance without any reference to creation.

Secondly, the limiting words "of the week" are not found in any fourth command reference in the Penteteuch.

Thirdly, the fourth commandment provides and promotes application to the seventh "of the week" like the SDA and Jew argue but the wording does not LIMIT to that application alone.

Fourth, evidence of my conclusion to the third point above is that God Himself applies the Sabbath law found exclusively in the fourth commandment to other days than the seventh day of the week and even to periods greater than 24 hour days or "years" in Leviticus 23. You cannot restrict the application of the 4th commandment to something less than what God Himself applies it to and He applies it to MORE than the seventh day in the week.

Finally, the applications in Leviticus 23,24 of the Sabbath law are to feasts and feast days that are by design symbolic of the New Covenant established by Christ with emphasis of the GREATER Sabbath application upon the day after the 7th regular Sabbath day (49th day) or 50th day and the 7th regular Sabbath year or 50th year. You can love, like it or hate it, but these are facts that cannot be overthrown and they are but the tip of the iceberg for Biblical evidence of the change of application of the fourth commandment to the first day of the week.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I personally believe all false religion is described in the metaphor of the Great Whore and her harlot daughters in Rev. 17-18.

False institutionalized religion is contrasted to New Testament churches in Rev. 17-21.

1. As women (harlot versus bride)
2. As cities (worldly city versus heavenly city)
3. As occupied by saints (unfaithful -Rev. 18:4; faithful - Rev. 19:6-7).

Both Rome and SDA are corrupted and false religions who preach "another gospel" and thus accursed. They preach a gospel of Christ PLUS law keeping in order to finally be justified before God. They reject Jesus Christ and repudiate the Biblical grace of God.

I don't this is one place scriptures does interpret itself and it says the great harlot is a city. A city again and again a city not a religious institution. And there is evidence Jerusalem or Rome could be that city.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I don't this is one place scriptures does interpret itself and it says the great harlot is a city. A city again and again a city not a religious institution. And there is evidence Jerusalem or Rome could be that city.

You are certainly welcome to your own opinion. But the bride in Revelation 19:6-7 is also represented as a "city" too - Rev. 21. The comparative symbolism between these two entities is striking. I suppose you believe they both are literal women too?

 

[Bro K]

Law of Liberty: Is this not the same as the Law of Christ(Gal 6:2)? Liberty relates to freedom not bondage. The Law was given to Israel because that what they wanted; not what God wanted. See Gal 3:19)

Gal 2:21.."I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Gal 5:1-4...Vs4."Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."

Gal 3:24-25.."Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a shoolmaster.

Mt 5:17..."Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."

I may be stretch to say the Ten Commandments are the same as the commandments of God.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Law of Liberty: Is this not the same as the Law of Christ(Gal 6:2)? Liberty relates to freedom not bondage. The Law was given to Israel because that what they wanted; not what God wanted. See Gal 3:19)

Gal 2:21.."I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Gal 5:1-4...Vs4."Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."

Gal 3:24-25.."Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a shoolmaster.

Mt 5:17..."Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."

I may be stretch to say the Ten Commandments are the same as the commandments of God.

Yes, I believe the law of liberty and law of Christ are one and the same. However, God purposely gave the Mosaic law to Israel for the specific reasons deleniated by Paul. It was never given to them as a means of justification. It was never given to them to obtain eternal life. It was given to them as a school master to reveal the knowledge of sin and thus turn them away from law keeping in order to obtain life, justification or to please God and turn them to faith in Christ alone to obtain eternal life, justification.

The whole Mosaic system (moral, civil, ceremonial) was fulfilled by Christ and abolished completely as it is an INFERIOR system than the administration of righteousness under the leadership of the Holy Spirit which is law of liberty and law of Christ.

 

[Bro K]

Yes, I believe the law of liberty and law of Christ are one and the same. However, God purposely gave the Mosaic law to Israel for the specific reasons deleniated by Paul. It was never given to them as a means of justification. It was never given to them to obtain eternal life. It was given to them as a school master to reveal the knowledge of sin and thus turn them away from law keeping in order to obtain life, justification or to please God and turn them to faith in Christ alone to obtain eternal life, justification.

The whole Mosaic system (moral, civil, ceremonial) was fulfilled by Christ and abolished completely as it is an INFERIOR system than the administration of righteousness under the leadership of the Holy Spirit which is law of liberty and law of Christ.

Totally Agree!!!!!!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

You are certainly welcome to your own opinion. But the bride in Revelation 19:6-7 is also represented as a "city" too - Rev. 21. The comparative symbolism between these two entities is striking. I suppose you believe they both are literal women too?

I take the bible at its word.

I will explain to you the mystery of the woman...The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth

I don't know. Sounds pretty clear to me. Whereas

6Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting:
"Hallelujah!
For our Lord God Almighty reigns.
7Let us rejoice and be glad
and give him glory!
For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
and his bride has made herself ready.

is clear that its metaphore for the Christian Community that is always represented as the bride. Different word use and style in these two chapters. Its very clear.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I take the bible at its word.

I don't know. Sounds pretty clear to me. Whereas is clear that its metaphore for the Christian Community that is always represented as the bride. Different word use and style in these two chapters. Its very clear.

Did you forget Revelation 21:1-25? It seems the bride in Revelation 19 is described in the language of a city in Revelation 21???

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Did you forget Revelation 21:1-25? It seems the bride in Revelation 19 is described in the language of a city in Revelation 21???

Funny you had to go to the very end where it talks about the New Jerusalem and yes the resting place of the whole community of Christians. It doesn't change the fact that the city in Rev. 17 is exactly that a city. The angel specifies it.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Funny you had to go to the very end where it talks about the New Jerusalem and yes the resting place of the whole community of Christians. It doesn't change the fact that the city in Rev. 17 is exactly that a city. The angel specifies it.

Is this the best you can do? Just say it is "funny"? No, it is FACT. The bride is described in the language of a city. The same bride in Rev. 19:6-7 is the same bride in Rev. 22:17 (note present tense) is the same bride described in Rev. 21.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Is this the best you can do? Just say it is "funny"? No, it is FACT. The bride is described in the language of a city. The same bride in Rev. 19:6-7 is the same bride in Rev. 22:17 (note present tense) is the same bride described in Rev. 21.

No your reading your eschatology into that passage. Thats the difference of reading the bible for what it says and reading things into the bible. Because what you are trying to sell is that every time city is used in the bible it has the same connotations as (as specified verse) in Rev 22:17. And the interesting thing about comparison with Rev 17 is that Rev. 17 says exactly what the woman is. She is a city.

 

[Dr. Walter]

No your reading your eschatology into that passage. Thats the difference of reading the bible for what it says and reading things into the bible. Because what you are trying to sell is that every time city is used in the bible it has the same connotations as (as specified verse) in Rev 22:17. And the interesting thing about comparison with Rev 17 is that Rev. 17 says exactly what the woman is. She is a city.

No, I am not reading my theology into that passage. I am reading the overall New Testament teaching of the church represented as a bride or an espoused chaste virgin to be presented to Christ into Revelation 19-21. I am applying the overall context of the book of Revelation and its use and inference of the term "bride" before Rev. 21 (Rev. 19) and after Rev 21 (Rev. 22:16-17). I am reading the immediate context of Rev. 17-22 where there are two entities contrasted in opposite terms

1. Unfaithful versus faithful women - (harlot, bride)
2. Worldly versus heavenly city (Rome, New Jerusalem)
3. Unfaithful saints within (Rev. 18:4) versus faithful saints (Rev. 19:6-7)
4. Unfaithful saints outside (Rev. 21:24) versus faithful inside (Rev. 22:1-2)
5. leaves for outside unfaithful (Rev. 22:3) versus fruit for inside faithful (Rev. 2:7)
6. All preceding New Testament passages to Revelation 19:6-7 teach the church is to be presented as a bride (Eph. 5:27; 2 Cor. 11:2).
7. Corrupted virgins as harlot churches (2 Cor. 11:3-4; Acts 20:29-30; 1 Tim. 4:1-5; etc.)

I am reading the immediate context of Revelation 17 where the woman cannot possibly be defined as the beast she rides on as it is with worldly governments she has committed "fornication" spiritual union with.

I am reading from the overall Old Testament where Old Tesament Jerusalem where the House of God existed within Israel is likened unto a woman, a bride in contrast with the rest of Israel and pagan world religions.

This overall Biblical context is the source of my interpretation.

 

[HankD]

I have expressed my opinion before concerning these two items:

First the Sabbath - We, the children of God indeed have a Sabbath to keep whether messianic Jew or run-of-the-mill Gentile:

Hebrews 4

9 There remaineth therefore a rest (sabbatismos) to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.​

Matthew 11
27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I ammeek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.​

All things have been delivered to Jesus by His Father including the Sabbath rest (He is Lord of the Sabbath).​

He is our Sabbath, come to Him and rest from your works, whether Jew, Gentile, SDA, RCC, whatever, whoever...​

The irony: Many who are keeping the earthly sabbath are in violation of the heavenly Sabbath.​

Second: what is our relationship to the Law? NOTHING, we are dead to the Law. The Law has nothing to say to a dead man.​

Romans 6
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.​

We are not under the law but are led of the Spirit​

Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.​

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.​

BTW, The Spirit of God has never led me into sin, that happens when I wander from His leading.​

HankD​

 

[Thinkingstuff]

No, I am not reading my theology into that passage. I am reading the overall New Testament teaching of the church represented as a bride or an espoused chaste virgin to be presented to Christ into Revelation 19-21. I am applying the overall context of the book of Revelation and its use and inference of the term "bride" before Rev. 21 (Rev. 19) and after Rev 21 (Rev. 22:16-17). I am reading the immediate context of Rev. 17-22 where there are two entities contrasted in opposite terms

1. Unfaithful versus faithful women - (harlot, bride)
2. Worldly versus heavenly city (Rome, New Jerusalem)
3. Unfaithful saints within (Rev. 18:4) versus faithful saints (Rev. 19:6-7)
4. Unfaithful saints outside (Rev. 21:24) versus faithful inside (Rev. 22:1-2)
5. leaves for outside unfaithful (Rev. 22:3) versus fruit for inside faithful (Rev. 2:7)
6. All preceding New Testament passages to Revelation 19:6-7 teach the church is to be presented as a bride (Eph. 5:27; 2 Cor. 11:2).
7. Corrupted virgins as harlot churches (2 Cor. 11:3-4; Acts 20:29-30; 1 Tim. 4:1-5; etc.)

I am reading the immediate context of Revelation 17 where the woman cannot possibly be defined as the beast she rides on as it is with worldly governments she has committed "fornication" spiritual union with.

I am reading from the overall Old Testament where Old Tesament Jerusalem where the House of God existed within Israel is likened unto a woman, a bride in contrast with the rest of Israel and pagan world religions.

This overall Biblical context is the source of my interpretation.

Which means that city could very well be Jerusalem not a religious organization.

 

[HankD]

Which means that city could very well be Jerusalem not a religious organization.

A "city" can be both a city and a religious organization. e.g. The Vatican.

HankD

 

[Thinkingstuff]

A "city" can be both a city and a religious organization. e.g. The Vatican.

HankD

The vatican is its own country and its just outside rome and it doesn't sit on seven hills. City in this sense in Chapter 17 is the center of world commerse and is a city soley and its not referring to any religious organization. You have to read that into the passage (religious organization).

 

[Dr. Walter]

Which means that city could very well be Jerusalem not a religious organization.

And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

As far as I know, Jerusalem never reigned over the kings of the earth at the time John wrote this - note the present tense "is" and "reigneth".

 

[Thinkingstuff]

And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

As far as I know, Jerusalem never reigned over the kings of the earth at the time John wrote this - note the present tense "is" and "reigneth".

Which is why I lean towards Rome. However, if you use it for eschatology there is no saying that Jerusalem may at one point rule the nations in the future.