Define "The Gospel"

[DHK]

This is an interesting point. I have taken some heat on this board for refusing to say that simply being a member of x, y or z group does not mean a person is not saved.

Nor do I argue my doctrinal points on a "well then in my opinion you are not saved" as if that kind of argument merits any weight at all in determining a correct position.

I think it is far better to get our views clearly stated and to compare notes as to why we believe as we do - than to go around with a "you-are-not-saved-meter" as if we were sitting in God's chair while we debate our various points of view.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob I am concerned for you.
I could have been more neutral (as I usually am), and said: "One is not saved if...." But I said "you" instead.

To be perfectly clear, as I have said many times in this forum: It is impossible to fully understand salvation and believe in RCC doctrine at the same time. You must choose one or the other. If the person chooses RCC doctrine and say they understand and accept Biblical salvation they are living a lie and are not saved.
I don't question the salvation of Lori directly but she can apply that any way she wishes. The same goes for any Catholic on this board or reading this board.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
in Heb 4, 7, 8, 9 and chapter 10 we are told that Christ is now ministering in the heavenly sanctuary as our High Priest.


Heb 7
25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;
27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

Hebrews 8
1 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.
3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer.
4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law;
5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, "" SEE,'' He says, ""THAT YOU MAKE all things ACCORDING TO THE PATTERN WHICH WAS SHOWN YOU ON THE MOUNTAIN.''

Heb 9:11
"But WHEN Christ APPEARED as a HIGH PRIEST of the GOOD things
to come HE ENTERED through the GREATER and MORE PERFECT TABERNACLE, NOT MADE with HANDS, that IS to say, NOT OF THIS creation;..



Heb 9:23
"THEREFORE it was necessary that the COPIES OF the THINGS in
heaven to be cleansed with these, but the HEAVENLY THINGS THEMSELVES
with BETTER sacrifices than these. For Christ did NOT enter a holy place MADE'
with HANDS, a MERE COPY of the TRUE ONE, but into HEAVEN ITSELF"


Christs role as our High Priest after the cross is essential for salvation according to the writer of Hebrews --.


Heb 5
8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.
9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,
10 being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

NO, the theology is strung together much like the J.W.'s string together verses to demonstrate that Jesus is none other than Michael the archangel, and not deity. You do the same thing. Putting together a string of verses to prove heresy does nothing.

I present a clear Bible case -- you respond with empty accusation after empty accusation.

Is there "no way" to get you from your "pronouncement theology" to an actual sola scriptura based discussion?

Hebrews 7:23-27 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
--First notice that the entire passage is a contrast between the ministry of the ministry of OT Levitical priesthood and the ministry of Christ. It is a contrast of two systems.

24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
--In contrast to the OT priesthood, Christ's ministry will never change.

Hebrews 7 introduces the priesthood of Christ. That is just about all the help you are getting from that text.

In Hebrews 8 the point is made that Christ is not an earthly priest - but a heavenly one "IF He were on earth He would NOT be a priest at all".

26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
--WE have the High Priest, not the unsaved. He is holy, harmless, undefiled separate from sinners. The ministry of the High Priest is entirely apart from salvation, entirely apart from the atonement, from making atonement for any kind of sin.

Hint: A lot of evangelism where the LOST go from being LOSt to SAVED takes place after Hebrews 7. Christ is the "ONE mediator between God and man" and "man" in this case means "everybody".

If you have some idea where the lost get saved "apart from Christ" then you have gone to a greater extreme in your imagination than I ever guessed.

27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
--In contrast to the OT priesthood he does not need to offer up sacrifices. His sacrifice was Himself. He did this once when he offered up himself.

This "one atoning sacrifice -- FINISHED at the cross" idea is the point I keep repeating - you keep responding with innexplicable "well then Christ is still suffering and making his sacrifice according to Bob" statements.

Earth to DHK -

. There is not "atoning sacrifice," as you say.

On the Contrary - there is as we see in 1John 2:2 NIV "He is the Atoning Sacrifice for our sins" -- a completed atoning sacrifice - 2000 years ago.

It is the sin offering of Lev 16 - that was truly sacrificed.

As Paul stated in 1Cor 5 "Christ our PASSOVER has been slain".


in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

as for the point of 1John 2:2 -

1 John 2:2 He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world (NIV)


Why NIV may be considered accurate in places
http://www.ibiblehouse.com/about_niv


Greek words and where they occur

There are just three Greek words that are used in the NT to convey the meaning of propitiation. As they only occur a total of six times, we could misconstrue the importance of the word but, as will be seen, even when the words aren’t used, the concept of propitiation is often described and expounded. As there are only six occurrences, it would be good if, at this point, you turned to them and had a quick read (noting the context) before going on any further with this study.

The three transliterated Greek words are:

hilaskomai (Strongs Greek number 2433)
Used in Luke 18:13 (where the RSV translates it with ‘be merciful’) and Heb 2:17 (‘to make expiation’).

hilasmos (Strongs Greek number 2434)
Used in I John 2:2 (‘the expiation’) and 4:10 (‘the expiation’).

hilasterion (Strongs Greek number 2435)
Used in Rom 3:25 (‘an expiation’) and Heb 9:5 (‘mercy seat’).

ev 16 “Mercy Seat” (strongs 2435 Hilasterion)
16:15
"Then he shall slaughter the goat of the sin offering which is for the people, and bring its blood inside * * the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat


Ezek 44:27 – Septuagint “Sin Offering” (Strongs 2434 root word: Hilasmos
Ezek 44:27
"On the day that he goes into the sanctuary, into the inner court to minister in the sanctuary, he shall offer his sin offering," declares the Lord GOD.

Ezek 45:20 “Make Atonement” (strongs 2433 (middle voice of 2436): Hilaskomai
"Thus you shall do on the seventh day of the month for everyone who goes astray or is naive; so you shall make atonement for the house.


God’s Model is “Atonement” – “God so LOVED the world that HE GAVE” John 3:16

2Cor 5 “God was IN CHRIST reconciling the World to Himself”.

By contrast the Pagan system had the idea of propitiation as “appeasement of the angry deity”

c. The Greek and Jewish concept of propitiation

Zondervan writes that
c. The Greek and Jewish concept of propitiation
Zondervan writes that

‘In classic pagan usage, the word propitiation...was used of averting the wrath of the gods. Renewed favour with heaven was won for the offender by his offering a gift or sacrifice to atone for his trespass’

while Morris comments that

‘...it was often held that the gods became angry with their worshippers and that they had to be appeased by choice offerings’

In the Greek world, the words translated by ‘propitiation’ were used in conjunction with the gods of a particular area, nation or even of an individual.

The ancients looked at the disasters of life around them and saw the hand of their gods in them - each incident (whether personal or corporate) was to them a demonstration of their wrath. But no-one was quite sure why the gods got angry. So they tried to propitiate them (turn away their anger to gain divine favour) by various acts of piety and service such as sacrifice, rituals, vows, dances and, even, games.

So, for instance, a failed crop of the staple diet of that nation or tribal group couldn’t go uninterpreted as the result of the anger of their chosen god - and there became the necessity to ‘appease’ their anger by certain actions. There was also a necessity to continuously offer to the gods to try and keep in their favour, so we see annual rituals (such as the celebration of the solstices) that tried to convey to their gods the reverence and awe in which they were held.

But still the people weren’t always certain just what made their gods angry - trial and error may give pointers in certain directions but there was seldom a time when they could pin-point a particular action that, if they were to do it again, would provoke a similar response.



http://www.arlev.clara.net/propitia.htm#4


in Christ,

Bob

 

[gateroadmusic]

The Gospel as defined by the Bible is found in 1 Cor. 15:3-4. It's subject is one man, Jesus Christ. It's message is about this one man; His death, burial, and resurrection. It is transcendant and perpetual ( Mk. 1:1, Ac. 2:23-24, Gal. 3:8).
It does not include works( Ro.1:16) or water baptism ( 1 Cor.1:17 ). Mk. 16:16 is not part of the Gospel, it is the result of what happens when the Gospel is proclaimed. Read this passage carefully; The disciples were commanded to preach the Gospel , not to baptize. Ac.2:38 is not part of the Gospel message. Peter's sermon concluded in verse 36 with the word " therefore". The Gospel, when believed ( Ro. 1:16) has the power to bring Salvation. There is and will always be only one Gospel that saves lost people. It is the Gospel of the " grace of Christ " ( Gal. 1:6 ) and the second that man interjects works into this Gospel it becomes " another gospel " that is to be exposed and condemned in the strongest possible terms ( Gal. 1:6-9).

 

[percho]

1 Corinthians 15 1,2 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [him];

Well it appears that the gospel that Paul preached is the same gospel that Christ preached and it is the power of God unto great salvation that we should not neglect. Also from Hebrews 2:3 Jesus first began to speak about it and told it to some that told it to the writer/writers of Hebrews. You know what Paul had to say about preaching a different gospel in Galatians 1:8 so where did he get the gospel he preached? Galatians 1:11,12 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. Another of Paul's mysteries I guess! Lets see what Peter had to say. Acts 10:36,37 The word which [God] sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all That word, [I say], ye know, which was published throughout all Judah, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; Let's see if we can find the beginning. Mark 1:1,14 ,15 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Back to Hebrews to see what Jesus told them that told the writer/s of Hebrews 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. Wonder what world that is? Let's check in with Paul again. Acts 20:25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more. Acts 28:23,31 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into [his] lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and [out of] the prophets, from morning till evening. Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him. About the last two passages that are underlined. Acts 17:1-3 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ. The anointed one preached the gospel as the prophet, is presently the High Priest and the soon coming King of the kingdom. Acts 17:7 Whom Jason hath received: and these all do contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another king, [one] Jesus. Do you think Paul preached the gospel of the kingdom of God here also? Now why did Paul open and alleged so much about the death and resurrection of Jesus? What did Jesus say must take place in order for a certain one to enter and or see the kingdom of God? John 3:6,7 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. What mystery did Paul say had to happen in order to inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. Open and alleged.
1 Corinthians 15:1314 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then [is] our preaching vain, and your faith [is] also vain. (You would not be able to enter into or inherit the kingdom of God.) Now what was the question that the Thessalonians had about their loved ones that had died in Christ? How are Larry, Curly and Mo going to be in the kingdom of God? They have died and Jesus hasn't returned yet. What did Paul tell them? If you believe that Jesus died and rose again even so (by resurrection) will God bring them which sleep in Jesus with him into the kingdom of God. The gospel of the kingdom of God.

 

[Dr. Walter]

The fundemental essence of the everlasting gospel to mankind is the deliverance from Satan (sin/death) by the promised seed - Messiah. - Gen. 3:15

The "how" of this deliverance is the progressive revelation of scripture until its fulfillment by the resurrection (I Cor. 15:3-4 "how" and "according to the scriptures").

The fundemental message preached by "all the prophets" (Acts 10:43) to them as well as unto us is:

To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. - Acts 10:43

The fundemental tenet of the false gospel or "another gospel" is any kind of repudiation of the complete sufficiency of this salvation provision made by Christ alone. Thus, any inclusion of someone elses person or contributions in making that provision complete is repudiation of the gospel of Christ.

 

[BobRyan]

Many Bible texts speak to the Gospel - and what it contains - for example

Rom 2
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

That is why I prefer to look at "ALL that pertains to life and godliness" as Paul said. Not closing my eyes to even the least part of the Gospel in anyway.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

Bob, you just jerked this text out of its context. Pauls argument from Romans 1:21 to Romans 3:8 is explicitly stated for us in Romans 3:9-11. He begins this discourse by claiming all mankind are "without excuse" and concludes it by asserting:

What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

This is Paul's explanation of the overall argument he has been trying to demonstrate from chapter one.

Romans 2:13-14 is part of that development in his argument that none are righteous. Here he specifically addresses all LAW KEEPERS (Jews) to demonstrate they are not righteous either. The law requires that not one point be violated in order to be justified by the law for if you violate one point you sin and thus "come short" (Rom. 3:23) of the glory of the Law which is the righteousness possessed by God - sinless perfection.
Paul's argument here to SDA/Jews and all other keepers of God's law is very simple. You must "KEEP" the law according to how God defines KEEP in order to be justified as righteous by the Law. Fail in one point, and the law condemns you as a sinner of the law.

Hence, this makes the jew no better than the Gentile becasue the Gentiles keep the law in the same sense the Jew does - IMPERFECTLY! To violate ONE POINT of the gentile conscience is to be judged a sinner as much as the Jew violating ONE POINT of the written law is to be judged a sinner. That is why "ALL HAVE COME SHORT" that is why "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NO, NOT ONE." This is true of all law keepers who are trying to be justified before God by law keeping or maintain justification before God by law keeping or attempting to obtain eternal life before God by law keeping. All who do are LOSERS.

Many Bible texts speak to the Gospel - and what it contains - for example

Rom 2
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

That is why I prefer to look at "ALL that pertains to life and godliness" as Paul said. Not closing my eyes to even the least part of the Gospel in anyway.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, you just jerked this text out of its context. Pauls argument from Romans 1:21 to Romans 3:8 is explicitly stated for us in Romans 3:9-11. He begins this discourse by claiming all mankind are "without excuse" and concludes it by asserting:

What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

This is Paul's explanation of the overall argument he has been trying to demonstrate from chapter one.

That is not correct.

1. Paul does not wipe out the first 2 chapters with a comment in Romans 3
2. In Romans 1 Paul points to the case of pagans that do not have God's Word - who commit gross sins in spite of the fact that the invisible attributes of God are clearly seen in the things that have been made. That truth remains - asis - even in Romans 3.

3. In Romans 2 Paul points to BOTH the succeeding case for Jews and Gentiles AND to the failing case for both Jews and Gentiles. The succeding case in Romans 2 is in the context of what Paul calls "repentance" vs 4 and "the Gospel" vs 16. Thus it is the saved among the Jews and Gentiles that are "succeeding" in that chapter.

In Romans 2 - Paul never argues that "there is only failing".

In Romans 2 Paul is making the same case as Christ in Matt 7 and as James in James 2.

4. In Romans 3 - Paul argues that all mankind need salvation and that all have a sinful nature. He argues that the Law of God is still binding and that it still condemns all mankind as sinners - so all need to accept the gospel.

At no point - do any of these chapters in any way cancel any other chapter.

You cannot use scripture to delete scripture.

Romans 2:13-14 is part of that development in his argument that none are righteous.

At no point in Romans 2 Does Paul argue that none are righteous because he is dealing with examples of "perseverance in doing good" and in the context of the gospel where God calls us to repentance and in the context of a future GOSPEL judgment (Rom 2:16).

But in Romans 3 Paul is dealing with the base issue of the nature of man APART from the born-again saved condition - thus NO one seeks after God "no not one".

Predictably - those who object to the truths of Romans 2 - and want to circle back to the lost condition - prefer to focus on Romans 3 where Paul does that very thing - he points out the lost condition of all mankind.

Next.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Walter - on Romans 3
Here he specifically addresses all LAW KEEPERS (Jews) to demonstrate they are not righteous either. The law requires that not one point be violated in order to be justified by the law for if you violate one point you sin and thus "come short" (Rom. 3:23) of the glory of the Law which is the righteousness possessed by God - sinless perfection.

True. The lost condition of all - and the continued authority of God's Law pointing out that all are sinners - all are under condemnation - all need a Savior. (not just Jews - but ALL)

This is the "lost condition" that people will often circle back to - when the subject of the Law of God in the lives of the saved saints comes up.

Paul's argument here to SDA/Jews and all other keepers of God's law is very simple. You must "KEEP" the law according to how God defines KEEP in order to be justified as righteous by the Law. Fail in one point, and the law condemns you as a sinner of the law.

Hence, this makes the jew no better than the Gentile becasue the Gentiles keep the law in the same sense the Jew does - IMPERFECTLY! To violate ONE POINT of the gentile conscience is to be judged a sinner as much as the Jew violating ONE POINT of the written law is to be judged a sinner. That is why "ALL HAVE COME SHORT" that is why "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NO, NOT ONE." This is true of all law keepers who are trying to be justified before God by law keeping

That much is true.

or maintain justification before God by law keeping or attempting to obtain eternal life before God by law keeping. All who do are LOSERS.

At some point you need to come to grips with scripture on that subject

Matt 10:22 but it is he who has endured until the end that will be saved.

Heb 2:1-3
1. For this reason we must pay close attention to what have heard lest we drift away from it
Heb 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence
and the boast of our hope firm until the end.
Heb 3:12-14
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called ""Today,'' so that none of you will be hardened
by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,


Heb 10:35-39
35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
37 FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

1Cor 15:1-2
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received,
in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Rom 11:22
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Col 1:21-23
22 He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death in order to PRESENT you before Him
Holy and Blameless and beyond reproach
23 IF indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast and not moved away
from the HOPE of the Gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven
and of which I Paul was made a minister.


1Tim 4
15Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all.
16Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

 

[DHK]

At no point in Romans 2 Does Paul argue that none are righteous because he is dealing with examples of "perseverance in doing good" and in the context of the gospel where God calls us to repentance and in the context of a future GOSPEL judgment (Rom 2:16).

But in Romans 3 Paul is dealing with the base issue of the nature of man APART from the born-again saved condition - thus NO one seeks after God "no not one".

Predictably - those who object to the truths of Romans 2 - and want to circle back to the lost condition - prefer to focus on Romans 3 where Paul does that very thing - he points out the lost condition of all mankind.

Next.

in Christ,

Bob

This where you are wrong. You see others besides myself, have tried to point this out to you but you ignore the plain teaching of the Bible. Let's try again.
1. Your problem, as per usual, is that you ignore context--both near context and overall context.
2. A good example of this is in this book. Look at it. Paul did not write this epistle willy-nilly. There is organization to it.

In the first chapter he demonstrates how the pagan world is under sin. His comments are directed to the Gentiles.
In the second chapter he demonstrates how the Jews are all under sin, none excepted. His comments are directed to the nation of Israel.
In the third chapter he demonstrates that all the world: both Jews and Gentiles are all under sin. His comments are directed to both groups: Jews and Gentiles alike. Thus the key verse in 23: "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God."

But you continue to take Romans chapter two out of context, a passage that Paul is directing to the nation of Israel and attempt to apply it to the Gentile believers. It doesn't work. That is why it seems to contradict the rest of what the Bible teaches. You ignore context.

As you can see, I am not the only person that has been trying to teach you this.

 

[Dr. Walter]

What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

In Romans 1:18-3:21 Paul is considering man in his NATURAL STATE and his response to the light God gives him in his NATURAL STATE. Paul does not consider the JUSTIFIED STATE of man and his response until Romans 3:24-8:39. This is a very important point because Bob is reading into Romans 2:10-16 the reactions of justified men. Absolute proof that he is not dealing with justified men or those in a born again state is the description of the Gentiles before (Rom. 1:18-32) and the description of the Jews after (Rom. 2:17-3:8) this passage. Thus Romans 2:10-17 is set in the middle of NATURAL BORN men and their reactions to the light God has given them.

Soooo, lets see who is right about Chapters 1:18-3:8 in their conclusions - Bob or Paul.

Question: Where did Paul deal with Gentiles and demonstrate there were none righteous, no, not one among them????

ANSWER: Rom. 1:18-32. Can you find one solitary statement of any response of repentance and faith or acts of righteousness in Romans 1:18-32? NO! Paul is right and Bob is wrong.

Question: Where did Paul deal with Jews and demonstrate there were none righteous, no, NOT ONE among them????

ANSWER: Romans 2:17-3:8. Can you find one solitary statement of any response of repentance and faith or acts of righteousness by the Jews in Romans 2:17-3:8. No

This leaves Romans 2:1-16 and this is where Bob beleives you can find some who do not fit Paul's conclusion in Romans 3:9-11.

However, the purpose of Romans 2:1-16 is to demonstrate that God's judgement is conducted on the basis of justice and THE NATURAL MAN will be justified before God if he measures up to the righteous standards of God's Laws or else they will be condemned as SINNERS and thus judged rather than justified.


A. First principle of God's Justice - HYPOCRISY will not pass His judgement:

1 ¶ Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

B. Second principle of God's Justice: DESPISING and REJECTION of God's providential Goodness produces hardness and is a judgable offence:

Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

C. Third principle of God's Justice - You are judged according to what your works demand:

Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

D. Fourth Principle of God's Justice - He is no respector of person

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

E. Fifth Principle of God's Justice - Every man is judged according to the light he is given manifested by obedience rather than profession is required to be justified

For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

Conclusion: These five principles will be the basis for judging all men and they are in accordance with the Gospel of Paul:

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Now, Does Paul anywhere in this text imply or infer that any Gentile in Romans 1:19-32 who had the light of conscience and light of nature responded to that light in repentance and faith? No, "not one."

Now, Does Paul anywhere in this context imply or infer that any Jew in Romans 2:17-3:8 who had the additional light of the law respond to that light in repentance and faith? No, "NOT ONE."

Bob confuses the principles used in judgement to be declarations that NATURAL man can and will. Paul says "no, not one" while Bob says many will be justified by the law. Bob attempts to insert JUSTIFIED MEN into this Romans 2:1-16 context when Paul is considering only NATURAL MEN and their responses to the light given them as the basis for standing before the Judgement seat of God. His conclusion is that NATURAL MANKIND approaching God on this basis "there is none righteoues, no, not one."

Bob is trying to read back into Roman 2:1-16 the justified men in Romans 3:24-8:39 when Paul is demonstrating why all men need to be justified by faith because the natural man who stands before God in final judgement will be condemned by the principles of justice because there is NO NATURAL BORN MAN that is good, none that doeth righteousness, no, not one.

That is not correct.

1. Paul does not wipe out the first 2 chapters with a comment in Romans 3
2. In Romans 1 Paul points to the case of pagans that do not have God's Word - who commit gross sins in spite of the fact that the invisible attributes of God are clearly seen in the things that have been made. That truth remains - asis - even in Romans 3.

3. In Romans 2 Paul points to BOTH the succeeding case for Jews and Gentiles AND to the failing case for both Jews and Gentiles. The succeding case in Romans 2 is in the context of what Paul calls "repentance" vs 4 and "the Gospel" vs 16. Thus it is the saved among the Jews and Gentiles that are "succeeding" in that chapter.

In Romans 2 - Paul never argues that "there is only failing".

In Romans 2 Paul is making the same case as Christ in Matt 7 and as James in James 2.

4. In Romans 3 - Paul argues that all mankind need salvation and that all have a sinful nature. He argues that the Law of God is still binding and that it still condemns all mankind as sinners - so all need to accept the gospel.

At no point - do any of these chapters in any way cancel any other chapter.

You cannot use scripture to delete scripture.



At no point in Romans 2 Does Paul argue that none are righteous because he is dealing with examples of "perseverance in doing good" and in the context of the gospel where God calls us to repentance and in the context of a future GOSPEL judgment (Rom 2:16).

But in Romans 3 Paul is dealing with the base issue of the nature of man APART from the born-again saved condition - thus NO one seeks after God "no not one".

Predictably - those who object to the truths of Romans 2 - and want to circle back to the lost condition - prefer to focus on Romans 3 where Paul does that very thing - he points out the lost condition of all mankind.

Next.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[percho]

Were all of those spoken of in Romans 1 thru 3 born into this world and covered in the first part of John 3:6?

 

[Dr. Walter]

Were all of those spoken of in Romans 1 thru 3 born into this world and covered in the first part of John 3:6?

Not all who are born of flesh are born of Spirit but all who are born of Spirit have been born of flesh. So, the answer is no as the first part of John 3:6 says "what is born of Spirit is spirit."

Romans 1:18-3:23 has reference only to NATURAL BORN humans. That is why they need to hear the gospel and come to Christ (Rom. 3:24-5:2).

 

[BobRyan]

1. Paul does not wipe out the first 2 chapters with a comment in Romans 3
2. In Romans 1 Paul points to the case of pagans that do not have God's Word - who commit gross sins in spite of the fact that the invisible attributes of God are clearly seen in the things that have been made. That truth remains - asis - even in Romans 3.

3. In Romans 2 Paul points to BOTH the succeeding case for Jews and Gentiles AND to the failing case for both Jews and Gentiles. The succeding case in Romans 2 is in the context of what Paul calls "repentance" vs 4 and "the Gospel" vs 16. Thus it is the saved among the Jews and Gentiles that are "succeeding" in that chapter.

In Romans 2 - Paul never argues that "there is only failing".

In Romans 2 Paul is making the same case as Christ in Matt 7 and as James in James 2.

4. In Romans 3 - Paul argues that all mankind need salvation and that all have a sinful nature. He argues that the Law of God is still binding and that it still condemns all mankind as sinners - so all need to accept the gospel.

At no point - do any of these chapters in any way cancel any other chapter.

You cannot use scripture to delete scripture.



At no point in Romans 2 Does Paul argue that none are righteous because he is dealing with examples of "perseverance in doing good" and in the context of the gospel where God calls us to repentance and in the context of a future GOSPEL judgment (Rom 2:16).

But in Romans 3 Paul is dealing with the base issue of the nature of man APART from the born-again saved condition - thus NO one seeks after God "no not one".

Predictably - those who object to the truths of Romans 2 - and want to circle back to the lost condition - prefer to focus on Romans 3 where Paul does that very thing - he points out the lost condition of all mankind.

Next.

.... Let's try again.
1. Your problem, as per usual, is that you ignore context--both near context and overall context.

You are not dealing with any of the points raise above - next.

2. A good example of this is in this book. Look at it. Paul did not write this epistle willy-nilly. There is organization to it.

In the first chapter he demonstrates how the pagan world is under sin. His comments are directed to the Gentiles.

In the second chapter he demonstrates how the Jews are all under sin, none excepted. His comments are directed to the nation of Israel.

That is a tiny snippet of Romans 2.

The part of Romans 2 you are conveniently tying to ignore is pointed out in my comments above - by not responding to any of the comments - you are trying to find a way to hide from the details of Romans 2 that do not fit your model.

That problem in your response is more transparently obivous to the objective reader than you may have at first imagined.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

Bob,

I dealt with these verses in context in a very thorough manner in regard to the immediate and overall context. Why not respond if you can make a reasonable contextual based response? Haven't heard a word!

You are not dealing with any of the points raise above - next.



That is a tiny snippet of Romans 2.

The part of Romans 2 you are conveniently tying to ignore is pointed out in my comments above - by not responding to any of the comments - you are trying to find a way to hide from the details of Romans 2 that do not fit your model.

That problem in your response is more transparently obivous to the objective reader than you may have at first imagined.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

In Romans 1:18-3:21 Paul is considering man in his NATURAL STATE and his response to the light God gives him in his NATURAL STATE.

Not true at all in Romans 2. You argue from snippets and then take a broad sweep from Rom 1:18 all the way to 3:21 “as if” nothing else was worth reading in that span of texts.

You do err in that regard.

To your credit – you are at least correct for what we find in Rom 3:9-14.

As has already been pointed out in detail - Romans 2 included succeeding cases for both Jews and Gentiles. Not just failing ones - because the context is explicitly stated to be "The Gospel" in Rom 2:16.

But in Rom 3:9-13 there is "only failing cases" because the subject is man without the Gospel.

Paul does not consider the JUSTIFIED STATE of man and his response until Romans 3:24-8:39.

Not true at all and Romans 2: 4-29 flatly debunks the speculation you are attempting in that comment.

Can you find one solitary statement of any response of repentance and faith or acts of righteousness

Yes indeed - by not turning a blind eye to Rom 2:4-13 we see it in the case of BOTH Jews and Gentiles - both the succeeding cases AND the failing cases are specified.

4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.


11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


And when we look at Rom 2:14-29 we see "Even more examples of success" among the gentiles.

A far cry from "no one seeks after God no not one" because Romans 2 is in the "Gospel context" as explicitly stated in Rom 2:16.

Ro 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

...
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Surely the unbiased objective reader will be able to read and see the success of the gentiles in vs 15-29 as well as the success of "both" Jew and Gentile (as well as examples of failure) in vs 4-14

It is much more direct - and in the text - than you appear to have hoped.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Can you find one solitary statement of any response of repentance and faith or acts of righteousness in Romans 1:18-32? NO! Paul is right and Bob is wrong.

Totally false. I have never argued that in Romans 1:18 Paul is arguing the succeeding case for either Jew or Gentile. Rather I go "to the text" (you know the ones you are carefully avoiding when you make t empty accusation after empty accusation) to show where Paul explicitly identified succeeding examples.

Your idea of pretending that Rom 2:4-29 succeeding cases "do not exist" never actually gets off the ground.

However it is instructive that your solution "needs" to go to such an extreme.

. Can you find one solitary statement of any response of repentance and faith or acts of righteousness by the Jews

Well let us begin by opening our eyes and reading the "inconvenient details" in the text - to get an answer to that question.
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?


5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.


11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

This leaves Romans 2:1-16 and this is where Bob beleives you can find some who do not fit Paul's conclusion in Romans 3:9-11.

Wrong again.

I argue that Paul's Rom 3:9-11 is the global statement about all mankind (both the saved and the lost) in their sinful nature - apart from the gospel - before the new Birth.

Yet "another inconvenient detail" that your solution is forced to gloss over - in order to make your case.

Again it is more than a little "instructive" that your solution has such a transparently flawed need to ignore detail after detail in the discussion in order to continue to promote your idea.

However, the purpose of Romans 2:1-16 is to demonstrate that God's judgement is conducted on the basis of justice and THE NATURAL MAN will be justified before God if he measures up to the righteous standards of God's Laws or else they will be condemned as SINNERS and thus judged rather than justified.

In Rom 2:4 starts out with the call to repentance.

Romans 2:6-7 deals with the issue of perseverance in the life of the saved saint.

Romans 2:11-16 deals with the subject of the New Birth and the Gospel subject of a future judgment and the justification that results in that future judgment.

B. Second principle of God's Justice: DESPISING and REJECTION of God's providential Goodness produces hardness and is a judgable offence:

Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

The goodness of God leads to "repentance" of sin - only under the Gospel. The context in Rom 2:4 is the Gospel call to repentance - because if the only context is "Law without gospel" then repentance is meaningless. Hint: this is not a meaningless text.

 

[Dr. Walter]

bob,

If this is the best you can do, you just as well not respond. You talk about "snippets" that is all you have responded with. In contrast I presented a contextually based clearly spelled out exposition verse by verse response. You think that your response which is nothing but sweeping assertions should be taken serious? You have not provided any kind of exegetical response at all.

Not true at all in Romans 2. You argue from snippets and then take a broad sweep from Rom 1:18 all the way to 3:21 “as if” nothing else was worth reading in that span of texts.

You do err in that regard.

To your credit – you are at least correct for what we find in Rom 3:9-14.

As has already been pointed out in detail - Romans 2 included succeeding cases for both Jews and Gentiles. Not just failing ones - because the context is explicitly stated to be "The Gospel" in Rom 2:16.

But in Rom 3:9-13 there is "only failing cases" because the subject is man without the Gospel.



Not true at all and Romans 2: 4-29 flatly debunks the speculation you are attempting in that comment.




Yes indeed - by not turning a blind eye to Rom 2:4-13 we see it in the case of BOTH Jews and Gentiles - both the succeeding cases AND the failing cases are specified.

4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.


11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


And when we look at Rom 2:14-29 we see "Even more examples of success" among the gentiles.

A far cry from "no one seeks after God no not one" because Romans 2 is in the "Gospel context" as explicitly stated in Rom 2:16.




Surely the unbiased objective reader will be able to read and see the success of the gentiles in vs 15-29 as well as the success of "both" Jew and Gentile (as well as examples of failure) in vs 4-14

It is much more direct - and in the text - than you appear to have hoped.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

C. Third principle of God's Justice - You are judged according to what your works demand:

Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

D. Fourth Principle of God's Justice - He is no respector of person

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Paul gives both failing and succeeding cases in the gospel context of the call to repentance as has been glaringly obvious in Rom 2:4-29.


What is interesting is that Christ also makes this same argument in Matt 7 showing the example of both the failing cases and the succeeding cases in the future judgment

E. Fifth Principle of God's Justice - Every man is judged according to the light he is given manifested by obedience rather than profession is required to be justified

For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Here is a clear example of future justification "DOERS of the Law SHALL be Justified".

It echoes Christ's word in Matt 7 "NOT everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the Kingdom of heaven - but he who DOES the will of My Father"

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
...
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Paul shows that the new birth effect of the Holy Spirit under the New Covenant is accomplished among the Gentiles. They have the Law written on their heart. At thend of the chapter Paul insists that this only happens by means of the Holy Spirit.

Now, Does Paul anywhere in this text imply or infer that any Gentile in Romans 1:19-32 who had the light of conscience and light of nature responded to that light in repentance and faith?

By doing this careful reading of the text and refusing to gloss over sections of scripture that do not fit man-made traditions -- the answer to that question is a resonding "Yes":godisgood:

in Christ,

Bob