Moral Law Verses Ceremonial Law

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
In that last text - (Is 56) we have the call to gentiles to
1. join themselves to the LORD
2. To Minister to Him
3. To Love the Name of the LORD
4. To be His servants
5. To keep from "profaning" the Sabbath.

And sure enough - it is the same thing in the New Earth where from "Sabbath to Sabbath" shall "All mankind come before Me to worship" Is 66.

No wonder Jesus could say in Mark 2 that the "Sabbath was MADE for Mankind"

As Paul himself says to the saints of Corinth "but what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19

Some OTHER way of life other than "ministering to Him"

Some OTHER way of life other than choosing to "Join yourself to the Lord".

You insist on some happy fiction where all of that is apparently just "some nice suggestions"

What I find amazing - is that you seem to imagine that this point is not glaringly obvious to the reader.

That to me is facinating.

Can't wait to see how it turns out.

Is 66 "from Sabbath to Sabbath... shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship".

Gentiles were considered part of "mankind" in the OT.

Mark 2:27 "The Sabbath was made for MANKIND"

Gentiles were considered part of "mankind" in the NT

Gen 2:1-3 God rested on the seventh-day and made it HOLY in Eden itself. Adam was not a Jew.

Is 56 has a specific blessing for gentiles who choose to worship God and honor the Creator of mankind by keeping the Lord's Holy day.
6 ""Also the FOREIGNERS who join themselves to the LORD, To minister to Him, and to love the name of the LORD, To be His servants, every one who keeps from profaning THE Sabbath And holds fast My covenant;
7 Even those I will bring to My holy mountain And make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar; For My house will be called a house of prayer for ALL the PEOPLES.''




So your avoidance of the difficult questions posed for your position above - is to ignore the details that do not fit your bias.



So how was the gentile believer in Is 56 - to be saved "according to the text". ?

Or are you saying that while "all mankind" (that would include gentiles) are to worship God "from Sabbath to Sabbath" in the New Earth.

And while the gentiles of Is 56 were to keep from profaning God's Sabbath --


And while "there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God" in the NT - Heb 4...

That "right now" God has called a halt to all of this -- just while you and I are talking??

Bob I am going to look at this situation from the present time.

Amazing!!

First, What is the gospel? As a Christian, how do you understand what the gospel is?

Second, How would you present this gospel message to someone who doesn't have a Bible, has never owned a Bible, and has never heard the gospel. (I was 20, and once was in that position).

There are many short-form summaries of the Gospel such as the ones we find in Eph 2:8-10 and in Heb 8:7-11. Take your pick. I like them all.


The Gospel includes "ALL that pertains to life and godliness" as Paul states.

It includes the judgment of Romans 2 just as Paul states which is the same judgment that we see included in the everlasting Gospel in Rev 1:46-7 as John states.

The "Reason" for God choosing to include that judgment in the Gospel is clearly seen in Daniel 7 - which is the point (that God makes) regarding the fact that the saints are persecuted all through history - yes even still today (not good news) UNTIL "Judgment is passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22 which is WHY saints that understand this point -- always view it as "good news".

This is not a command for any NT believer to keep the Sabbath. Remember we are talking of the present time. What is the gospel? How does this relate to the gospel? How does this help in telling others what the gospel is?

Read Heb 8:7-11 "carefully" and you will soon see what the New Birth has to do with "the Gospel" and with the Law of God written on the heart and mind.

Will quote Heb 8 in the next post as you have stated that you "do not read" if the information is contained in a single long post.



in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

8 For finding fault with them, He says, "" BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
9 NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
10 "" FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: [b]I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
11 "" AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN, AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, "KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME[/b], FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
12 "" FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE.''

Paul has just shown the Jer 31:32 “New Covenant” to include the basic Gospel components

• Forgiveness of sin “I will remember their sins no more”
• Adoption by God – “I will be their God – they will be My people”
• The New Birth – the New Creation – with the Law of God written on the heart AND mind

 

[BobRyan]

And sure enough - it is the same thing in the New Earth where from "Sabbath to Sabbath" shall "All mankind come before Me to worship" Is 66.

This is not a command for any NT believer to keep the Sabbath.

Is that because the NEW EARTH is in the OT and not in Rev 21 or is it because the book of Revelation is no longer part of the New Testament?

Just curious.

How does this relate to the gospel?

1. The New Earth inheritance of the saints is part of the "good news" for God's people and is yet another benefit of the Gospel.

2. The New Heart - New Creation - is yet another benefit of the Gospel - and this results in the Law of God written on the heart and mind.


Gentiles were considered part of "mankind" in the OT.

Mark 2:27 "The Sabbath was made for MANKIND"

Gentiles were considered part of "mankind" in the NT

Gen 2:1-3 God rested on the seventh-day and made it HOLY in Eden itself. Adam was not a Jew.

There is no command here to keep the Sabbath.
However, this is not part of the Gospel is it?
How does this benefit an unsaved man in his understanding of the Gospel message?

1. It is in the "NT" --
2. It speaks to the perfect sinless state of man as God created mankind.
3. It points to the fact that man has rest still appointed for him.
4. Mankind in a born-again holy state is called to Keep God's Holy day - Holy.

How will it help him to get saved?

ahhh - circle back to the state of the lost! (How did I know the circle-back option was coming...?)

The lost are to see the law not written on the heart - but external written in stone - condemning them as NOT loving God with all their heart -and as NOT loving others as themselves and as helpless slaves to coveting etc.

But once the Gospel is accepted and entered into by the LOST - well then they start the role of the SAVED in submitting to the Law of God - that is WRITTEN on the heart.

Your multiple-gospel solution does not work DHK. Paul puts it down in Gal 1:6-11.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

The Apostle Paul clearly teaches that the whole Mosaic system of Law, moral, civil and ceremonial has been done away with completely and the Christian is "dead" to the whole Mosaic system of law keeping.

The rejection of circumcision is the rejection of the whole Mosaic administration and covenant. Circumcision was the first contact a infant Jew or a proselyte Gentile had with Moses and its submission was a declaration to the committment of a whole life of law keeping from that point forward. Doing away with circumcision is a doing away of the whole Mosaic moral, civil and ceremonial economy/covenant/administration:

In Galatians Paul equates "justification by works of the law" to be equal with committment to be circumcised as he clearly and explicitly states:

Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. - Gal. 5:4,6

Paul regarded the following phrases as synonymous in the book of Galatians.

1. Works/deeds of the Law
2. Law of Moses
3. Circumcision
4. Justified by works

Under the New Covenant, the PRINCIPLES of the Ten Commandments are written upon the table of the heart and their application is not for justification nor are they administered by the flesh. They are administered under the leadership of the Holy Spirit to the general applications of daily life according to the spirit of the law, which many times contradicts the letter of the Law, as the letter can be too restrictive, legalistic and limited.

For example, only the Preists were by the letter of the law qualified to eat the shew bread and Jesus admitted that but justified the High Preist giving it to David and his men. Why? Because the letter of the law was to protect the ultimate intent of the symbolism of the bread for those who symbolized the people of God (preists, as all believers are preists before God). The application of this law to David and his men was in keeping with the spirit of the law defined by its symbolism but was in direct disobedience of the law according to its strict letter.

This is why the whole Mosaic law, moral, civil and ceremonial has been abolished because it is INFERIOR to the Holy Spirit administration of the PRINCIPLES of the Mosaic legislation.

 

[BobRyan]

The Apostle Paul clearly teaches that the whole Mosaic system of Law, moral, civil and ceremonial has been done away with completely

wrong.

Rom 3:31 "Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God FORBID! In fact we establish the Law of God"

Eph 6:2 "The FIRST commandment with a promise" in that still valid unit of ten... .err ... umm.. - still valid.

Under the New Covenant, the PRINCIPLES of the Ten Commandments are written upon the table of the heart and their application is not for justification

Yes that is what happens in the New Birth - the still valid Commandments of God - written on the tablets of the human heart. True in the OT just as in the NT - because (and here is the big hint) there is only ONE Gospel (Gal 1:6-11)

As Paul says "But what matters is KEEPING the commandments of GOD".

John makes the same point in 1John 5.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

Have you read 2 Cor. 3:3-6 and the contrast between two covenants. One external, the other internal? Read the rest of the chapter. The Old Covenant, the Mosaic covenant, the law is done away with totally and completely. The New, inward, of the Spirit, remains.

wrong.

Rom 3:31 "Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God FORBID! In fact we establish the Law of God"

Eph 6:2 "The FIRST commandment with a promise" in that still valid unit of ten... .err ... umm.. - still valid.



Yes that is what happens in the New Birth - the still valid Commandments of God - written on the tablets of the human heart. True in the OT just as in the NT - because (and here is the big hint) there is only ONE Gospel (Gal 1:6-11)

As Paul says "But what matters is KEEPING the commandments of GOD".

John makes the same point in 1John 5.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

wrong.

Yes that is what happens in the New Birth - the still valid Commandments of God - written on the tablets of the human heart. True in the OT just as in the NT - because (and here is the big hint) there is only ONE Gospel (Gal 1:6-11)

As Paul says "But what matters is KEEPING the commandments of GOD".
Bob

In this post you seem to be equating the New Birth with the Ten Commandments. That is not the Gospel I know. It is not the New Birth. The keeping of the law condemns, and always has. It is a curse. And all those who try to keep are cursed by the law.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

It seems that you have put yourself under a curse, and that you have equated the gospel to a curse. Is this true??

 

[Dr. Walter]

Faith establishes the law because faith is not IN YOU or YOUR WORKS or YOUR OBEDIENCE to the Law. The object of faith is CHRIST and His obedience to the law and His death that satisfies the penalty of the Law.

That is the ONLY way the law if confirmed/established by faith - through its object - JEsus Christ.


Here is your problem, the moral law condemns all as sinners who fail it in ONE POINT. You fail it in ONE POINTE you come under its CURSE.

All mankind have failed it in ALL OF ITS POINTS but Christ. The personal righteous life of Christ is the only life that has kept EVERY POINT.

This is why justification for sinners MUST be by faith alone "in Christ" because righteousness can only be obtained by IMPUTATION and not by personal performance/obedience by sinners.

Lost religious people reject the imputed righteousness of Christ and demand law keeping as inclusive of justification before God. They reject Christ's righteous life, reject his death by including their own life (and death - purgatory for Rome) as part and parcel of justification before God mixing SIN with Christ which is a complete repudiation of Christ as SIN and Christ cannot be mixed for justification.

Jesus told his disciples that their righteous must EXCEED that of the religious leaders of the day (Mt. 5:20) and must EQUAL that of God (Mt. 5:46).

God has never sinned once in the past, not once in the present and will not sin once in the future - that is to be perfect "EVEN AS God is Perfect. Where are you going to get a life without sin in your past, present or future Bob??????

wrong.

Rom 3:31 "Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God FORBID! In fact we establish the Law of God"

Eph 6:2 "The FIRST commandment with a promise" in that still valid unit of ten... .err ... umm.. - still valid.



Yes that is what happens in the New Birth - the still valid Commandments of God - written on the tablets of the human heart. True in the OT just as in the NT - because (and here is the big hint) there is only ONE Gospel (Gal 1:6-11)

As Paul says "But what matters is KEEPING the commandments of GOD".

John makes the same point in 1John 5.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Rom 3:31 "do we then make VOID the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God"

1Cor 7:19 (Paul tells the saints) "But what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"

Faith establishes the law because faith is not IN YOU or YOUR WORKS or YOUR OBEDIENCE to the Law. The object of faith is CHRIST and His obedience to the law and His death that satisfies the penalty of the Law.

That is the ONLY way the law if confirmed/established by faith - through its object - JEsus Christ.

That is the initital justification aspect - but look at the LIFE of the saint to see the flaw in your argument -

Take a look at Romans 8 - same book same author same inconvenient detail - very difficult to wriggle out of.

Rom 8
3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the Law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh
13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.


Yes it is yet another "by their fruits you shall know them" point coming from Paul on the subject of rebellion vs obedience to God's Law - making his point about our faith "establishing" the very thing popular teachers want to claim is "abolished".

Here is your problem, the moral law condemns all as sinners who fail it in ONE POINT.

Indeed the perpsective that the LOST have when it comes to God's Law and one that you never tire of circling back to - whenever Paul talks about perseverance of the saints.

All mankind have failed it in ALL OF ITS POINTS but Christ. The personal righteous life of Christ is the only life that has kept EVERY POINT.

True - this what leads the lost to accept Christ as their savior.

This is what Paul refers to Heb 6 when he says "Not laying AGAIN a foundation ...

Hebrews 6
1 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
2 of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.
3 And this we will do, if God permits.

This is why justification for sinners MUST be by faith alone "in Christ" because righteousness can only be obtained by IMPUTATION

Indeed - the case of the lost becoming born-again - saved.

A point you never tire of circling back to - whenever Paul brings up the subject of perseverance of the saints.

Lost religious people reject the imputed righteousness of Christ and demand law keeping

Certainly that is what the lost religous leaders of Christ's day were doing.

are you going to get a life without sin in your past, present or future Bob??????

Nope - the lost comes to Christ and is then has sin covered by the blood of Christ and life covered by the life of Christ.

Now 1 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

Let us press on to Paul's subject of "perseverance of the saints".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

In this post you seem to be equating the New Birth with the Ten Commandments.

Nope - I equate the Gospel with the New Covenant.

It seems that you have put yourself under a curse, and that you have equated the gospel to a curse. Is this true??

Your flawed argument is more transparent to the objective unbiased reader than you seem to have imagined.

Hebrews 8

6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.

8 For finding fault with them, He says, "" BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
9 NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
10 "" FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: [b]I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
11 "" AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN, AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, "KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME[/b], FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
12 "" FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE.''


Paul has just shown the Jer 31:32 “New Covenant” to include the basic Gospel components

• Forgiveness of sin “I will remember their sins no more”
• Adoption by God – “I will be their God – they will be My people”
• The New Birth – the New Creation – with the Law of God written on the heart AND mind

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Have you read 2 Cor. 3:3-6 and the contrast between two covenants. One external, the other internal? Read the rest of the chapter. The Old Covenant, the Mosaic covenant, the law is done away with totally and completely. The New, inward, of the Spirit, remains.

Rom 3:31 "do we then make VOID the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God"

1Cor 7:19 (Paul tells the saints) "But what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"

God's word tells us that the Law of God – external is simply the legal code that condemns us “the ministry of death” that points out our need of Christ. The Law of God “internal on the tablets of the human heart” by contrast is the New Covenant promised work of God the Holy Spirit.

This has always been the case since the fall of man.

2 Corinthians chapter 3

The context from the start is the contrast between the 10 Commandments “law written on tablets of stone” externally – vs the New Covenant “law written on the tablets of the human heart”.

2 you are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men;
3 being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

Paul makes the point of telling us in 2Cor3 that the subject is the contrast between the use of the law in the Old Covenant and the new - notice that both the old and New Covenant are the subjects of 2Cor3.

2Cor 3
vs 6 "who also made us adequate as servants of a New Covenant"

vs 14 "until this very day at the reading of the Old Covenant the same veil remains unlifted because it is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart. But whenever a man turns to the Lord the veil is taken away"
(notice it does not say whenever they stop reading Moses the veil is taken way - rather when they turn to the Lord (the one true God) they can read Moses with the veil taken away.)

This contrast of outward focus in the Old Covenant and inward in the New Covenant is amplified in these words regarding the law

"you are a letter of Christ cared for by us written not with ink, but wih the spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone (the law of the Old Covenant - 10 Commandments) but on tablets of the human heart" 2Cor 3:3

that which is written outwardly on "tablets of stone" in the Old Covenant (God's law) is written inwardly "on tablets of the human heart" under the New Covenant.

God further makes the same New Covenant point in Hebrews 8 "I will write my laws upon their hearts" Heb 8:10 --- which is a repeat of Jeremiah 31:33 where the term law in it's highest purest form is the law for Jeremiah written on tablets of stone (as Paul tells us).

So when God speaks these words to his prophet about writing inwardly that which the infinite unchanging creator God calls "law" (inwardly on the heart) - the context demands that we consider the 10 Commandments as the primary reference. James 2 is in full agreement with this giving us examples of the "law" of God - as "the law of liberty" - and the examples are simply excerpts from the law written on tablets of stone. (do not murder, and do not commit adultery).

Romans 2 makes it clear that real Christians "show that the work of the law is written on their hearts"


Romans 2:15. Regarding pagans who have no scripture but "do instinctively the things of the law" ..."for when gentiles who do not have the law - do instinctively the things of the law..."
- clearly it is the same law
of the infinite unchanging creator God which they do not have outwardly, but do have it written on their heart inwardly. That same law is expanded and shown to be the same outward law of the Jews in this same chapter "if therefore the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? And will not he who is physically uncircumcised if he keeps the law will he not judge you though having the letter of the law and physically circumcised - as a transgressor of the law"

"for he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that which is of the heart - by the spirit -- not by the letter". Rom 2:26-29

and of course the Romans view of what the law is - is the same as the “tablets of stone” we find in 2Cor 3—for Romans quotes from it.

Rom 7:
- 7 what shall we say then? Is the law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, i would not have come to know sin except through the law; for i would not have known about coveting if the law had not said, "" you shall not covet.''
8 but sin, taking opportunity through the Commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the law sin is dead.
9 I was once alive apart from the law; but when the Commandment came, sin became alive and i died;
10 and this Commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;
[b/]
-
(Note: Paul also calls the law "scripture" -)

- Gal 3:21 is the law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.
22 but the scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I believe you are simply repeating what I said. The ten commandments are the universal law of God. The old covenant not only contains the ten commandments but the rest of the Mosaic legislation is nothing more or less than the ten commandments applied in principle to the religous and civil life of the Jew. Jesus proves this when he demands that "ALL the law and the prophets" hang upon two statments that summarize the first and second tablet of the ten commandments. He further proves then when he demands that "the law and the prophets" can be summarized in one word "love" for God and neighbor.

Romans 3:19-21 refers to this UNIVERAL law of God because Paul uses UNIVERSAL language

1. "The whole world" - v. 19
2. "every mouth" - v. 19
3. "no flesh" - v. 20
4. "the knowledge of sin" - v. 20
5. "the law and the prophets" - v. 21

This is very same Law is found in Romans 7:6-11 as the law that reveals the knowlege of sin that could not justify Paul before God but brought him under the curse of the law - sin and death. "THOU SHALT NOT COVET"

This is the very same law found in Galatians 3:10-12 that brings condemnation and the curse of sin and death by which "no man" (not merely jews) can be justified by obeying it. He is talking to baptized beleving church members rather than lost people or initial justification.

The New Covenant is the ministration of the Spirit not YOUR MINISTRATION of justification by works. It is a consequence of regeneration/justification or the manifest fruits not the cause of justification.

Saved people bear fruit of obedience because they are saved and justified not in order to be saved or justified.

Finally, these fruits are by measure and different in all the saved ("some thirty, some sixty, some...) because they are limited by the measure of grace and measure of faith (Rom. 12:3,7) and individual purpose of God (Eph. 2:10b). God has made some vessels of sliver, some gold, some wood according to His own good pleasure (Rom. 9:20-24). Therefore, there are those who progress like Lot in the Old Testament or like Solomon and there are those who progress like Daniel and Joseph. This limited progressive manifestations is not for justification for entrance into heaven as NONE ARE ALIKE and heaven has a unchangable STANDARD of righteousness for entance that must "EXCEED" the best works of religious lost men and EQUAL the righteousnes of God and that is exactly why it is called "the righteousness of God" (Rom. 10:3) which you reject for justification going about to establish your own personal provision by your own works in order to satisfy the standard and demands of the Law (Rom. 2:6-11; Rom. 10:3).

The New covenant provides a NEW HEART that keeps the Lord's commandments out of LOVE not to get into heaven. To glorify God here and now, not to enter heaven.

It is the object of faith - the provision by God in the person and work of Jesus Christ - that ESTABLISHES the laws standard of righteousness and satisfies the penaly of the law (Rom. 3:31) not your works of righteousness.

There is no justification by the works of the law performed BY US - Rom. 3:19-21; 7:6-11; Gal. 3:10-13 - however, the law is still God's standard of righteousness, the Ten Commandments remain to do exactly what God designed them to do - reveal sin - lead the sinner to Christ - guide to righteousness but NEVER TO JUSTIFY ANY SINNER SAVED OR LOST.

Rom 3:31 "do we then make VOID the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God"

 

[BobRyan]

I agree that the same law that condemns the guilty sinner who is not under the New Covenant of the Gospel - is the very law that is written on the heart under the New Covenant for the saved.

But the idea that Christ was wrong to argue "by their fruits you shall know them" does not quite get off the ground.

The idea that Paul is wrong in Romans 2 - to so fully explain the future justification brought about in the future judgment -- never quite gets off the ground. Paul is correct in Romans 2 to show the linkage between persevering and going to heaven.

5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.


11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.



God's judgment is seen in some detail in Dan 7 with the saints being judged out of those things "written in the books" - and in the end "judgment passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

But the idea that Christ was wrong to argue "by their fruits you shall know them" does not quite get off the ground.

Bob, simply look at the context where Jesus says this in Matthew 7:15-20! it is talking about false prophets. The "fruits" of false prophets are manifest in their false doctrine and life.

 

[Dr. Walter]

The idea that Paul is wrong in Romans 2 - to so fully explain the future justification brought about in the future judgment -- never quite gets off the ground. Paul is correct in Romans 2 to show the linkage between persevering and going to heaven.

5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.


11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

I am responding to this in expository fashion in the thread "Romans 2:1-16."

 

[DHK]

Nope - I equate the Gospel with the New Covenant.

Your comparisons are not always accurate.

Your flawed argument is more transparent to the objective unbiased reader than you seem to have imagined.

That is your opinion. But I am sure the unbiased reader will judge for himself, as you say.

Hebrews 8

6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.

8 For finding fault with them, He says, "" BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;

Please explain when this new covenant was made with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.

9 NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.

10 "" FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: [b]I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.

Please explain when Jehovah once again became the God of Israel, and now Israel has become the people of Jehovah. How is it that God's law is written in their minds and in their hearts, and God's covenant is carried out with them today?

11 "" AND

THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN, AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, "KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME[/b], FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
12 "" FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE.''

Keeping with the context of Israel, are their sins remembered no more. This is OSAS with the nation of Israel. Does Israel teach everyone his fellow citizen? Is that what is happening in the nation of Israel right now? Is everyone Israel's brother, and is Israel saying to all of them "Know the Lord," because all at this time know the Lord. Do all know the Lord at this time, Bob? Are you living in a dream land. Do we no longer have to evangelize because all have already come to know the Lord.

Paul has just shown the Jer 31:32 “New Covenant” to include the basic

Gospel components

• Forgiveness of sin “I will remember their sins no more”
• Adoption by God – “I will be their God – they will be My people”
• The New Birth – the New Creation – with the Law of God written on the heart AND mind

• You teach and believe eternal security (OSAS), because God will remember their sins no more.
  
• You believe that right now God has adopted Israel as His own special people.
• The New Birth is a specific action applicable to Israel.
  

Unless you believe in Replacement Theology these are your beliefs. Do you believe in replacement theology Bob?

 

[Andre]

On the matter of a distinction between "moral and "ceremonial" law in the Law of Moses:

Consider Romans 7. There Paul says that we have been freed from the written code and are now following the Spirit. Is he excluding the 10 commandments from this code from which we have been freed? Clearly, he is not. When elaborating on what the written law consists in, Paul makes a clear allusion to the "you shall not covet" commandment:

6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. 7What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."

Note what is going on here. Having just stated (verse 6) that we are released from the law, Paul is making an argument about how, despite the fact we have been thus released, this does not mean that the Law was evil. So there really is no out here. In the mind of Paul the written code from which the Jew has been released - the Law of Moses - indeed includes the 10 commandments. Paul would not make the statement he makes (above) about how the "do not steal" commandment was not an evil thing, if he did not believe that this commandment, and by implication the rest of the 10 commandments, were not an element of the written code whose fundamental goodness he is affirming despite his declaration of its abolition. The logic of his argument entirely falls apart unless the 10 commandments are part of the written code that has been abolished.

Consider an analogy. Suppose that some leader figure had written down a set of 500 "rules". Let's say some of them were obvious "moral" in character, such as "thou shalt not kick puppies". And suppose some of them were ceremonial, such as "you must wear a red hat on Friday". Now suppose someone named Fred comes along and writes that we have been freed from this written code (analogous to what Paul writes in Romans 7:6). Even if it were not otherwise obvious that this includes the "do not kick puppies" law (since it is indeed a part of the written code), suppose Fred also follows up his assertion about being freed from the code with this statement:

What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not kick puppies"?

Fred would never make such statement, if he did not believe that the written code, just declared to have come to an end, did not include the "do not kick puppies" command.

Back to Paul: Paul says that we have been freed from the written code. Fine. Does that include the 10 commandments? Obviously it must precisely because Paul feels obliged to tell the reader that even though the code has been abolished, it is not being abolished because it was evil. And when he affirms that the written code is not evil because it told him "thou shalt not steal", it becomes clear beyond question that Paul considers the 10 commandments to be part of the written code that has been abolished.

Now to clarify - from the above it is obvious that I affirm the abolition of the entire written code. True enough, I do. But, in the present context, my point is that one cannot say that Paul considers the 10 commandments to be something separate from the "written code" which clearly includes all the ceremonial stuff.

Yes, believe it or not, I appear to be agreeing with Dr. Walter on this point.

 

[Dr. Walter]

However, he says we are "dead" to the law inclusive of the ten commandments and all of its application to the Gentile (conscience) and Jews (civil, ceremonial) altogether in that Christ died, thus removing us under its dominion and condemnation because we died "in Christ" when we were united LEGALLY "in him" through justification. Thus all of it is abolished in Christ forever.

What is written upon the heart is what was written upon the two tables of stone. The "law" written on our new hearts is not the ten commandments per se, but the PRINCIPLE that underlies the ten comandments. That is, God does not write ten commandments on the tables of our heart in the fashion that he wrote them upon stones because our heart is SPIRITUAL and therefore can only contain the SPIRIT of the Law or Love. Love is the fulfilling of the Law.

Hence, for our Sabbartian friends, they must determine what is the SPIRITUAL PRINCIPLE behind the fourth commandment rather than the outward observance and external letter. Why, because even if they external observe the Sabbath they may be violating it competely because it is not the external form the but spiritual principle that determines proper observation.

Howevever, we are DEAD to the Law in all of its forms and applications, meaning, law has no jurisdiction over "DEAD" people and we are "DEAD" in Christ to the jurisdiction of the law. The law cannot condemn "dead" people. The "law" cannot punish "dead" people. The Law cannot make guilty "dead" people. We are "dead" but only "in Christ" judicially and legally.

On the matter of a distinction between "moral and "ceremonial" law in the Law of Moses:


Consider Romans 7. There Paul says that we have been freed from the written code and are now following the Spirit. Is he excluding the 10 commandments from this code from which we have been freed? Clearly, he is not. When elaborating on what the written law consists in, Paul makes a clear allusion to the "you shall not covet" commandment:

6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. 7What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."

Note what is going on here. Having just stated (verse 6) that we are released from the law, Paul is making an argument about how, despite the fact we have been thus released, this does not mean that the Law was evil. So there really is no out here. In the mind of Paul the written code from which the Jew has been released - the Law of Moses - indeed includes the 10 commandments. Paul would not make the statement he makes (above) about how the "do not steal" commandment was not an evil thing, if he did not believe that this commandment, and by implication the rest of the 10 commandments, were not an element of the written code whose fundamental goodness he is affirming despite his declaration of its abolition. The logic of his argument entirely falls apart unless the 10 commandments are part of the written code that has been abolished.

Consider an analogy. Suppose that some leader figure had written down a set of 500 "rules". Let's say some of them were obvious "moral" in character, such as "thou shalt not kick puppies". And suppose some of them were ceremonial, such as "you must wear a red hat on Friday". Now suppose someone named Fred comes along and writes that we have been freed from this written code (analogous to what Paul writes in Romans 7:6). Even if it were not otherwise obvious that this includes the "do not kick puppies" law (since it is indeed a part of the written code), suppose Fred also follows up his assertion about being freed from the code with this statement:

What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not kick puppies"?

Fred would never make such statement, if he did not believe that the written code, just declared to have come to an end, did not include the "do not kick puppies" command.

Back to Paul: Paul says that we have been freed from the written code. Fine. Does that include the 10 commandments? Obviously it must precisely because Paul feels obliged to tell the reader that even though the code has been abolished, it is not being abolished because it was evil. And when he affirms that the written code is not evil because it told him "thou shalt not steal", it becomes clear beyond question that Paul considers the 10 commandments to be part of the written code that has been abolished.

Now to clarify - from the above it is obvious that I affirm the abolition of the entire written code. True enough, I do. But, in the present context, my point is that one cannot say that Paul considers the 10 commandments to be something separate from the "written code" which clearly includes all the ceremonial stuff.

Yes, believe it or not, I appear to be agreeing with Dr. Walter on this point.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, simply look at the context where Jesus says this in Matthew 7:15-20! it is talking about false prophets. The "fruits" of false prophets are manifest in their false doctrine and life.

As it turns out - there is only one small area of Matt 7 limited to false prophets.


Matthew 7
1 ""Do not judge so that you will not be judged.
2 "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.
3 ""Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
4 "" Or how can you say to your brother, "Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye?
5 ""You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

General truth – applicable to all.

7 "" Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
8 ""For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.
9 ""Or what man is there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone?
10 ""Or if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he?
11 ""If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!


General truth applicable to all.

The promise is conveyed to those who follow the instructions given so far - dealing truthfully with their own soul and their Savior. Knowing that God will provide the forgiveness we seek - and even all things "good".

12 ""In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

General truth – applicable to all.


Matt 7[/b]
13 "" Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14 ""For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

General truth applicable to all – (the entire scope of saved vs lost)


1 Peter 4
17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
18 AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER?


--


Matt 7
"Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for MANY, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and SHALL NOT BE ABLE" Luke 13:24


Notice that the command is NOT to God telling God "please STRIVE to get your chosen people to enter by the narrow gate -" nor is the command to a select group who “can only BE the elect”. (No such filter exists).

Matt 7

15 ""Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16 ""You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
17 ""So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 ""A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 "" Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 ""So then, you will know them by their fruits.

General truth “every tree” –

The lost and the saved are in one of the two groups.

Matt 7
21 "" Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.


Matt 7
22 "" Many will say to Me on that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23 ""And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'



The scope again - is for EVERYONE. Applies to ALL the lost at the end if time and warns all the listeners of Christ at the time of Matt 7.



Ezek 18
24"But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.




Matt 7
24 ""Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
25 ""And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
26 ""Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
27 ""The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell and great was its fall.''


The scope is to EVERYONE

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

On the matter of a distinction between "moral and "ceremonial" law in the Law of Moses:

John Wesley has a good sermon on record regarding the Ceremonial vs Moral Law of God.

John Wesley - Sermon 35

2. It was easy to foresee an objection which might be made, and which has in fact been made in all ages; namely, that to say we are justified without the works of the law, is to abolish the law. The Apostle, without entering into a formal dispute, simply denies the charge. "Do we then," says he, "make void the law through faith? God forbid! Yea, we establish the law."

3. The strange imagination of some, that St. Paul, when he says, "A man is justified without the works of the law," means only ceremonial law, is abundantly confuted by these very words. For did St. Paul establish the ceremonial law? It is evident he did not. He did make void that law through faith, and openly avowed his doing so. It was the moral law only, of which he might truly say, We do not make void, but establish this through faith.

4. But all men are not herein of his mind. Many there are who will not agree to this. Many in all ages of the Church, even among those who bore the name of Christians, have contended, that "the faith once delivered to the saints" was designed to make void the whole law. They would no more spare the moral than the ceremonial law, but were for "hewing," as it were, "both in pieces before the Lord; "vehemently maintaining, "If you establish any law, Christ shall profit you nothing; Christ is become of no effect to you; ye are fallen from grace."

5. But is the zeal of these men according to knowledge? Have they observed the connexion between the law and faith? And that, considering the close connexion between them, to destroy one is indeed to destroy both? -- that, to abolish the moral law, is, in truth, to abolish faith and the law together? As leaving no proper means, either of bringing us to faith, or of stirring up that gift of God in our soul?

6. It therefore behoves all who desire either to come to Christ, or to walk in him whom they have received, to take heed how they "make void the law through faith;" to secure us effectually against which, let us inquire, First, Which are the most usual ways of making "void the law through faith?" And, Secondly, how we may follow the Apostle, and by faith "establish the law."