Moving any mountains lately?

[steaver]

Is there such a thing as "saving faith" which is different than "exercising faith"?

I have heard it said that even the faith you have in Jesus Christ is the gift from God. And this said not from Calvinist but from an Arminian free-will pov..

They say once you call on Jesus Christ to save you you are given the gift of eternal life by the Holy Spirit through regeneration. By this gift and the creation of a new creature one now has eternal life through a living river of faith flowing within you at all times. This being different than exercising faith, this regeneration faith is what is called "saving faith" and is part of the make up of God's gift of eternal life to those who free-willingly call on Him.

Jesus said....




Jhn 7:39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Jhn 14:26But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The Disciples did not have the indwellment of the Holy Spirit until Jesus rose from the dead and began to give the Spirit through regeneration to those who wanted to believe and make Him Lord.


Jesus said to Peter...

Luk 22:32But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Jesus after His ressurrection then went to His disciples and said.....

Jhn 20:22And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Could this be why the disciples were told they could not cast out devils in Matt....

Matthew 17:19,20 "Then the disciples came to Jesus privately, and said, "Why weren't we able to cast it out?" He said to them, "Because of your unbelief. For most assuredly I tell you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will tell this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you."

??

 

[Jedi Knight]

Zechariah 4:7 Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain; and he shall bring forth the top stone with shoutings of Grace, grace, unto it.
I believe Jesus was referring to this scriptural pincipal. Somethings can only be done by God Himself and some fasting and prayer too.

 

[steaver]

Zechariah 4:7 Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain; and he shall bring forth the top stone with shoutings of Grace, grace, unto it.
I believe Jesus was referring to this scriptural pincipal. Somethings can only be done by God Himself and some fasting and prayer too.

Not too sure about this.

What about Jesus' charge...."Because of your unbelief.....?

 

[billwald]

Jhn 7:39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Jhn 14:26But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The Holy Spirit is God but is not omnipresent?

I have a hypothesis <G> that there is a jurisdictional agreement between the members of the Trinity that only one should be directly active on earth at any given time.

This might be why evil spirits were VERY active during Jesus' ministry but but before or after (the transition period).

 

[BobRyan]

Is there such a thing as "saving faith" which is different than "exercising faith"?

I have heard it said that even the faith you have in Jesus Christ is the gift from God. And this said not from Calvinist but from an Arminian free-will pov..

They say once you call on Jesus Christ to save you you are given the gift of eternal life by the Holy Spirit through regeneration. By this gift and the creation of a new creature one now has eternal life through a living river of faith flowing within you at all times. This being different than exercising faith, this regeneration faith is what is called "saving faith" and is part of the make up of God's gift of eternal life to those who free-willingly call on Him.

1. John 16 - The Holy Spirit "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" - not just the saved, not even just the Calvinists.

2. John 1 - Christ is the light that coming into the world - enlightens EVERY one of mankind.

3. Joh 12:32 - Christ "draws ALL" unto Him - not just "some".

4. John 3 "are you a teacher in Israel and yet claim not to know these things?" - "you must be born again".

5. Romans 10 With the heart man believes "resulting in righteousness" and with the mouth he confesses "resulting in salvation".

Jesus said....




Jhn 7:39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Jhn 14:26But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The Disciples did not have the indwellment of the Holy Spirit until Jesus rose from the dead

Not true.

In Acts 1 Jesus tells the disciples to "Wait" for the promised pentecostal filling of the Holy Spirit.

But in Matt 10 Christ gave the disciples the Spiritual Gifts of 1Cor 12 (Holy Spirit) of healing.

In John 14:17 "The Spirit of Truth ...you KNOW Him because He abides with you"

John 3 - Christ affirms that any Bible student shoud be aware of the work of the Holy Spirit in the New Birth - in conversion.

Gal 1:6-11 There has been "only ONE Gospel" in both OT and NT - hint being born again is a key part of that Gospel. Heb 4:2 "the Gospel was preached to US just as it was to THEM also"

Spirit filled men of the OT "seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ WITHIN them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ AND the glories to follow" 1Pet 1:11.

Ps 51:11 "take not your Holy Spirit from me"
Ezek 11:19-20 "A New heart" a "new Spirit" put within.
Is 63:10 Israel grieved God's "Holy Spirit".
Haggai 2:5 "My Holy Spirit abiding IN your midst"
Is 51:7 In their heart was written the Law of God -
Ps 37:31 - "the Law of God IS IN his heart"
Deut 6:6 God's Word "in your heart"
Rom 2:28-29 "He is not a Jew who is one outwardly... circumcision is that which is of the heart by the Spirit"

and began to give the Spirit through regeneration to those who wanted to believe and make Him Lord.

First of all - I am amazed that a Calvinist thinks that someone "wants to believe and wants to Make Christ Lord" BEFORE they have the Holy Spirit in any way!

Amazing.

Could this be why the disciples were told they could not cast out devils in Matt....

In Matt 10 they were given the power to heal the sick and cast out devils.

Matt 10:1-5 - sending out the 12 with power to heal and cast out demons.

Luke 10:1 Sending out the 70 with power to heal and cast out demons
Luke 10:17 the 70 return saying "even the demons obey us".

Matthew 17:19,20 "Then the disciples came to Jesus privately, and said, "Why weren't we able to cast it out?" He said to them, "Because of your unbelief. For most assuredly I tell you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will tell this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you."

The disciples are surprised that the demons did not obey - since they already had been sent out to cast out demons - and it was already known to work. In Matt 18:1 we see the problem - they were bickering over "who is the greatest" and were thus separating themselves from the source of power by grieving the Holy Spirit.

Mrk 9:29 "this kind does not come out but by prayer and fasting" - speaking of the need of revival in the hearts and minds of the disciples - the healERS were defective.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Steaver: The Disciples did not have the indwellment of the Holy Spirit until Jesus rose from the dead

Bob; Not true. In John 14:17 "The Spirit of Truth ...you KNOW Him because He abides with you"

You kinda left off the last part of Jesus' statement. and shall be in you.

Makes quite a difference when all the scripture is read and context is applied.

Spirit filled men of the OT "seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ WITHIN them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ AND the glories to follow" 1Pet 1:11.

One must distinguish by context the difference between the Spirit WORKING IN someone and the Spirit converting someone by the new birth. We can find the Spirit working in a donkey as well in the OT and one would not say the donkey had been born again.

Just pointing out the obvious so far.

First of all - I am amazed that a Calvinist thinks that someone "wants to believe and wants to Make Christ Lord" BEFORE they have the Holy Spirit in any way!

Amazing.

A Calvinist would not.

Just pointing out more of the obvious here.

Originally Posted by Steaver thinks they had no power Pre-cross because
Matthew 17:19,20 "Then the disciples came to Jesus privately, and said, "Why weren't we able to cast it out?" He said to them, "Because of your unbelief. For most assuredly I tell you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will tell this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you."

Now Bob is a mind reader. Now that is amazing indeed! I believe the unbiased objective reader will see that I made no statements about the disciples having no power given them. But again, that is just pointing out the obvious.

The disciples are surprised that the demons did not obey - since they already had been sent out to cast out demons - and it was already known to work. In Matt 18:1 we see the problem - they were bickering over "who is the greatest" and were thus separating themselves from the source of power by grieving the Holy Spirit.

Mrk 9:29 "this kind does not come out but by prayer and fasting" - speaking of the need of revival in the hearts and minds of the disciples - the healERS were defective.

You did not address the OP point. Here it is again....

Matthew 17:19,20 "Then the disciples came to Jesus privately, and said, "Why weren't we able to cast it out?" He said to them, "Because of your unbelief.

Were the disciples believers or not?

 

[BobRyan]

The Disciples did not have the indwellment of the Holy Spirit until Jesus rose from the dead and began to give the Spirit through regeneration to those who wanted to believe and make Him Lord.


Jesus said to Peter...

Luk 22:32But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Jesus after His ressurrection then went to His disciples and said.....

Jhn 20:22And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:


Could this be why the disciples were told they could not cast out devils in Matt....

Matthew 17:19,20 "Then the disciples came to Jesus privately, and said, "Why weren't we able to cast it out?" He said to them, "Because of your unbelief. For most assuredly I tell you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will tell this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you."

Originally Posted by Steaver thinks they had no power Pre-cross because
Matthew 17:19,20 "Then the disciples came to Jesus privately, and said, "Why weren't we able to cast it out?" He said to them, "Because of your unbelief. For most assuredly I tell you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will tell this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you."

Now Bob is a mind reader. Now that is amazing indeed! I believe the unbiased objective reader will see that I made no statements ...

Let's try this.

Hey Steaver - the sky is "up".:laugh:


:godisgood:
in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

1. John 16 - The Holy Spirit "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" - not just the saved, not even just the Calvinists.

2. John 1 - Christ is the light that coming into the world - enlightens EVERY one of mankind.

3. Joh 12:32 - Christ "draws ALL" unto Him - not just "some".


in Christ,

Bob

As you point out, the Spirit is always at work IN the saved AND the lost. Thus your post unaware by you supports my point that the Spirit at work IN people does not EQUAL born again.

 

[BobRyan]

Were the disciples believers or not?

They were believers. Christ did not accuse them of being "unbelievers".

in Matt 16 Christ said to them "whom do the people say I am" and Christ affirms Peter's answer saying "Flesh and blood has not revealed this to you - but My Father who is in heaven".


The following emphasis added for Steaver's benefit -

John 2:11
This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

As you point out, the Spirit is always at work IN the saved AND the lost. .

I provided no statement or quote saying that the Holy Spirit indwells/fills/lives-in the lost. He convicts them of sin - but does not live in them nor are they filled with the Holy Spirit.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

They were believers. Christ did not accuse them of being "unbelievers".

in Matt 16 Christ said to them "whom do the people say I am" and Christ affirms Peter's answer saying "Flesh and blood has not revealed this to you - but My Father who is in heaven".

in Christ,

Bob

You are still not addressing this He said to them, "Because of your unbelief.

 

[BobRyan]

As noted in my first post

In Matt 10 they were given the power to heal the sick and cast out devils.

Matt 10:1-5 - sending out the 12 with power to heal and cast out demons.

Luke 10:1 Sending out the 70 with power to heal and cast out demons
Luke 10:17 the 70 return saying "even the demons obey us".


Matthew 17:19,20 "Then the disciples came to Jesus privately, and said, "Why weren't we able to cast it out?" He said to them, "Because of your unbelief. For most assuredly I tell you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will tell this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you."

The disciples are surprised that the demons did not obey - since they already had been sent out to cast out demons (Matt 10:1, 8 comes before Matt 17) - and it was already known to work. In Matt 18:1 we see the problem - they were bickering over "who is the greatest" and were thus separating themselves from the source of power by grieving the Holy Spirit.

Mrk 9:29 "this kind does not come out but by prayer and fasting" - speaking of the need of revival in the hearts and minds of the disciples - the healERS were defective.

Mark 9 references the same incident as recorded in Matt 17.

 

[steaver]

As noted in my first post



Mark 9 references the same incident as recorded in Matt 17.

AS noted by this board. no reference of this statement in your response...

He said to them, "Because of your unbelief.

 

[BobRyan]

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1547442&postcount=9

 

[steaver]

Do you think this is an error...

He said to them, "Because of your unbelief.

Should it read He said to them, "Because of your bickering.

 

[BobRyan]

The Link I provided may not have been clear to Steaver - so more red highlighting may be needed at this point:laugh: ...

Originally Posted by steaver


Were the disciples believers or not?

They were believers. Christ did not accuse them of being "unbelievers".

in Matt 16 Christ said to them "whom do the people say I am" and Christ affirms Peter's answer saying "Flesh and blood has not revealed this to you - but My Father who is in heaven".


The following emphasis added for Steaver's benefit -

John 2:11
This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

And then of course my more recent

The disciples are surprised that the demons did not obey - since they already had been sent out to cast out demons (Matt 10:1, 8 comes before Matt 17) - and it was already known to work. In Matt 18:1 we see the problem - they were bickering over "who is the greatest" and were thus separating themselves from the source of power by grieving the Holy Spirit.

Mrk 9:29 "this kind does not come out but by prayer and fasting" - speaking of the need of revival in the hearts and minds of the disciples - the healERS were defective.Mark 9 references the same incident as recorded in Matt 17.

 

[steaver]

The Link I provided may not have been clear to Steaver - so more red highlighting may be needed at this point:laugh: ...



And then of course my more recent

Nothing you posted deals with the text in question. Do you understand what UNBELIEF means?

Try again....

He said to them, "Because of your unbelief.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Not too sure about this.

What about Jesus' charge...."Because of your unbelief.....?

Well have YOU ever experienced Moutain moving faith? I have but to answer the question about their unbelief.....the children of Isreal didn't finish going into the promise land because of unbelief. Peter took his eyes off the Master and began to sink....what did Jesus asked Peter after He caught him? The Old Testement passage I gave you was relevant to reiderate how it's done right.....also not by might,nor by power,but by my spirit says the Lord. "Why couldn't we cast out the demon?" .....simple.....took you eyes of the Lord. Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us. Ephesians 3:20

 

[steaver]

Well have YOU ever experienced Moutain moving faith? I have but to answer the question about their unbelief.....the children of Isreal didn't finish going into the promise land because of unbelief. Peter took his eyes off the Master and began to sink....what did Jesus asked Peter after He caught him? The Old Testement passage I gave you was relevant to reiderate how it's done right.....also not by might,nor by power,but by my spirit says the Lord. "Why couldn't we cast out the demon?" .....simple.....took you eyes of the Lord. Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us. Ephesians 3:20

So one can take their eyes off the Lord Jesus Christ here or there yet still have a "saving faith"?

 

[Jedi Knight]

So one can take their eyes off the Lord Jesus Christ here or there yet still have a "saving faith"?

Your salvation is not a current "hold on" state. You were justified in the past by faith in Christ. You now walk "in Him" by faith.