Commandment keeping

[DHK]

True - but there is more to it than that...

Matthew 6:14-15
"14 If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you.
15 But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions.”

We can't be saved if the Father does not forgive our sins, thus we must forgive [do something] in order to be saved.

That is not what it says is it?
Jesus was speaking to his disciples. They were already saved. Obviously your conclusion is wrong.

Luke 6: 46-49
"Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' but not do what I command? I will show you what someone is like who comes to me, listens to my words, and acts on them.
That one is like a person building a house, who dug deeply and laid the foundation on rock; when the flood came, the river burst against that house but could not shake it because it had been well built.
But the one who listens and does not ACT is like a person who built a house on the ground without a foundation. When the river burst against it, it collapsed at once and was completely destroyed."

Hmmm... Looks like doing an ACT is a requirement to salvation also.

The Rock is Jesus. Unless your foundation is Jesus you cannot be saved.
1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
--If you are saved you will have believed on Christ who will have become the foundation of your life. Has this happened in your life?

Matthew 19:16-21
"Now someone approached him and said, "Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?"
He answered him, "Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."
He asked him, "Which ones?" And Jesus replied, “‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness;
honor your father and your mother'; and 'you shall love your neighbor as yourself.'"
The young man said to him, "All of these I have observed. What do I still lack?"
Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to (the) poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Wow - here are four more. According to Jesus we must keep the commandments, love our neighbor as ourselves, sell what we have giving it to the poor, and following Christ.

Was Jesus saying that this is the way to have eternal life? If so, have you sold all that you have, given it to the poor, and then followed Christ? Why not? You do want to go to heaven don't you? You have just proposed that this is the way to heaven, so you must practice what you preach. Sell all that you have; give it to the poor; follow Christ, and then you shall be saved. Not until you do that can you be saved. This you must do. Have you done that? I will await your answer on this one.

Mark 16:16 - Jesus said "He who believes AND is baptized will be saved."
Jesus says believing is not enough. Baptism is also required - believe AND be baptized.

Baptism is a step of obedience after salvation. Have you taken it?

James 1:22-24
But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if any one is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who observes his natural face in a mirror; for he observes himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like.

James writes to Christians here; not the unsaved. Look at the context, near the beginning of the chapter. He is addressing "my brethren."

--- and ---

James 2:24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."

James says this because we are justified, and ultimately saved, through both our faith and works, and not just faith alone.

Rather, the teaching here is that works are the fruit of our faith.

John 9:31 "We know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He hears him.

Fear God AND do his will...

Those that fear God will do his will. That is a given.

Romans 2:5-7
"5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness."

Many get caught up in a misinterpretation and misapplication of these verses. Read a bit further. These verses are addressed to the Jews.

We will be judged by our works…

2 Corinthians 5:8-10 (King James Version)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

So, in summation of the above verses from Matthew, Mark, James, Luke, John, Romans, and 2 Corinthians the following are requirements of salvation:

Yes, as it says in verse 10, at the Judgment Seat of Christ, a Judgment for believers only. At this judgment the believer's works will be judged, but not for salvation, for reward or lack of reward. Salvation is not in question here.

1) forgive others
2) listen and act
3) keep the commandments
4) love your neighbor as yourself
5) sell what you have and give to the poor
6) follow Christ
7) believe (have faith - an assent of the will)
8) do works
9) be Baptised
10) fear God AND do his will
11) persevere in good works
12) repent

There are plenty of others, but this should suffice.

Peace!

And none of it has to do with our salvation.

 

[annsni]

17 ""So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit
18 ""A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 "" Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 ""So then, you will know them by their fruits.

Note the tree produces fruit according to it's kind. The fruit does not direct what kind of tree it is. It is not a bad tree because of bad fruit but it produces bad fruit because it's a bad tree. A believer WILL produce good fruit and an unbeliever WILL produce bad fruit.

 

[BobRyan]

Agreed.

You must first BE a saint to "walk" as Romans 8 demands.

You must first BE holy (via the new birth, new creation, sanctification") to actually "KEEP" the Sabbath "holy".

that is all true.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Chowmah]

Man, if I had to stand before God and say "I should get into heaven because I forgave others, obeyed every commandment, loved my neighbor, sell what I had and gave to the poor, did all sorts of works, and was baptized.", I think I'd go to hell.

Annsni
I would have the same bad feeling your speaking of if i was to stand before the Lord and tell Him "Save me Lord im an illegallist, i did nothing you commanded me to do"

 

[BobRyan]

True - but there is more to it than that...

Matthew 6:14-15
"14 If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you.
15 But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions.”

We can't be saved if the Father does not forgive our sins, thus we must forgive [do something] in order to be saved.

In Matt 18 Peter asks how many times he should be required to forgive his neighbor. Christ response in Matt 18 shows the real principle behind forgiveness. In that parable a servant owes many years wages to the King - far more than he could repay in a lifetime. The King demands payment and declares that the evil servant and will be put in prison and all is goods confiscated ... and then the evil servant pleads for mercy for a chance to pay back the massive debt. Instead the King forgives the servant ALL his mammoth debt.

Later the servant is found to be unforgiving of a tiny debt owed to him by his fellow servant. He treats his fellow servant harshly. In the Matt 18 parable the king comes to the wicked servant and says "I forgave you ALL that debt - should you not have then forgiven your fellow servant his small debt?". IT is then that the debt forgiveness is revoked.

Notice that that basis for forgiving others is that the servant is himself fully forgiven and in gratitude extends to others - the kind of grace first granted him.

He was not to forgive his fellow servant so THAT the King WILL forgive him -- rather he was to forgive BECAUSE the King had forgiven him.

Christ's statement in Matt 6 is spoken to his disciples - to those who were forgiven - he does not say "once you have forgiven a certain number of people THEN My Father will forgive you" - rather his argument is that BECAUSE God has forgiven them much - they should likewise forgive others.

(Made in detail in the Matt 18 illustration"

Luke 6: 46-49
"Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' but not do what I command? I will show you what someone is like who comes to me, listens to my words, and acts on them.
That one is like a person building a house, who dug deeply and laid the foundation on rock; when the flood came, the river burst against that house but could not shake it because it had been well built.
But the one who listens and does not ACT is like a person who built a house on the ground without a foundation. When the river burst against it, it collapsed at once and was completely destroyed."

Hmmm... Looks like doing an ACT is a requirement to salvation also.

Again this is a true statement - but as we see in the parallel account in Matt 7 "The good tree produced good fruit". IT is because they ARE saved, they are born-again that they can engage in those good works - keeping God's Commandments etc.

James 1:22-24
But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if any one is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who observes his natural face in a mirror; for he observes himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like.

--- and ---

James 2:24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."

James says this because we are justified, and ultimately saved, through both our faith and works, and not just faith alone.

True - and in the case of James 2 and Romans 2 the context is a future judgment and future justification. It is based on deed for as 2Cor 5:10 states "We must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ to given an account for the deeds done...whether they be good or evil".

But there is a justification past aspect as well that applies here. You find it in Romans 3 and Romans 5:1 - "having BEEN justified by faith we HAVE peace with God".

It is in justification past that you are born-again, justified and created as a new creation with a new heart given to you and the Law of God written on your heart and mind (Heb 8:10).

IT is AS a born-again justified saint then that you walk as Romans 8 says "By the Spirit putting to death the deeds of the flesh".

And that Future justification when "not the hearers of the Law are just before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL be justified" Rom 2:11-13 it is the born-again saint that will be shown to have been a "doer" and it is the one who rejects salvation who will be shown to live in violation of God's Law.

In justification past - you change from being lost to saved.

In justification future -- there is no change. You are merely shown - by your works to either BE a "good tree" or to BE "a bad tree".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

With most of the posters on this thread that effort is not necessary - but each time I point you to the text above - you ask for someone to explain it or you question the text in some other fashion.

Consider actually reading the text as a solution.

I highly recommend it.

You will not find any post of mine asking you to explain your proof text to me, so that is a false allegation.

Nor have I ever questioned a text of scripture as to it's truthfulness, another false accusation.

Are you one of the two who desires to have your eternal life judged by the Law? If so, do you know bearing a false witness is breaking the commandments of God?

Reading the text has not helped you understand, so why recommend it to others?

....start by discussing the text and how it does or does not fit your traditions.

Fitting the text into your traditions is what is causing you so much error. I will leave that method with you. I would rather discuss how the text actually fits into a real life scenario.

 

[BobRyan]

You will not find any post of mine asking you to explain your proof text to me, so that is a false allegation.

Your avoidance or the entire chapter of Romans 6 --- "noted".

Your wrenching the idea to the point of calling the entire chapter of Romans 6 "a proof text" -- noted.

Nor have I ever questioned a text of scripture as to it's truthfulness,

Oh wonderful - so after my posting the Romans 6 chapter in large portion about half a dozen times - we are finally about to get you to "look" at scripture instead of circling back to your "gaming" tactics for avoiding the text?

Apparently you had no actual intention of looking at the scripture under discussion.

Are you one of the two who desires to have your eternal life judged by...

I am one of the many that prefers an actual doctrinal discusssion with someone who values the text of scripture - over "gaming".

There just may come a day when you too will step up to that plate.

Until then - :sleeping_2:

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Cutter]

When the wicked dead are judged and the books are opened before the Great White Throne of Judgment in Rev. 20, the only thing that could possibly make a difference to their final destination, would be if there names were found written in The Book of Life, and keeping the commandments will not be what places or preserves your name within it.

 

[BobRyan]

There are two judgments in Rev. One is in Rev 14 "The hour of His judgment has come" and this is a message that goes out to all the earth - before the 2nd coming. And before the image to the beast is setup.

When Christ comes He says "My reward is with me" - the reward for the saints is already determined before he arrives. In Daniel 7 this point is made very clear "judgment is passed in favor of the saints" and then - and only then - does persecution of the saints on earth - end. Only then do we see the saints inherit the kingdom. Only then is Christ given the dominion.

Then in Rev 20 after the millennium - we see another judgment. The GWT judgment that deals with the dead - "over whom" the second death DOES have power. These are the wicked and they are judged "according to their deeds".

All of them are thrown into the lake of fire.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Cutter]

There are two judgments in Rev. One is in Rev 14 "The hour of His judgment has come" and this is a message that goes out to all the earth - before the 2nd coming. And before the image to the beast is setup.

When Christ comes He says "My reward is with me" - the reward for the saints is already determined before he arrives. In Daniel 7 this point is made very clear "judgment is passed in favor of the saints" and then - and only then - does persecution of the saints on earth - end. Only then do we see the saints inherit the kingdom. Only then is Christ given the dominion.

Then in Rev 20 after the millennium - we see another judgment. The GWT judgment that deals with the dead - "over whom" the second death DOES have power. These are the wicked and they are judged "according to their deeds".

All of them are thrown into the lake of fire.

in Christ,

Bob

I'm not going to get off of my earlier statement by agreeing with all that you have written in this post. Let me just ask, by not disagreeing or challenging me on my previous post, I would be led to believe that you do agree with it. Right or wrong?

 

[BobRyan]

I do agree that they have no amount of "good works" sufficient to save those guys in Rev 20 that are "judged by their deeds". For "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". The only role that the law serves for the lost - is to condemn them and show that they need salvation.

In fact their deeds -- their fruits will "Show" that they are "bad trees" as Christ describes it in Matt 7.

It will merely confirm their fate.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Cutter]

I do not believe that commandment keeping will record your name in the Book of Life at anytime. We are saved by grace through faith, certainly not by our own works and effort. When Christ was asked how one may work the works of God, Jesus' reply was, "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

 

[BobRyan]

Commandment keeping is not how the lost become saved.

in Romans 5:1 - "Having been justified by faith - we have peace with God".

Romans 10 - "with the heart man believes resulting in righteousness, with the mouth he confesses resulting in salvation".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Cutter]

Commandment keeping is not how the lost become saved.

Nor is it what keeps one saved.

 

[BobRyan]

Christ said "by their fruits you SHALL know them" - Matt 7 - turns out Christ was "right".

So too when He adds "NOT everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven - but rather he who DOES the will of My Father" Matt 7

Paul said in 1Cor 7:19 "But what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" -- turns out Paul was inspired by God.

John 14:15 Christ said "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" - turns out Christ was the Son of God.

In 2Cor 5:10 Paul argues that the deeds done in the body Do have weight in the judgment "we must ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account for the DEEDS done in the body whether they be GOOD or EVIL".


Then Paul adds this amazing statement in complete agreement with Christ's Matt 7 statement and even explaining the judgment process in detail


Rom 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?


5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be [b]tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil[/b], of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.


11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


Illustration:

A WWII veteran survivor of a particularly nasty battle where many US soldiers died - is asked "How did you survive" -- his answer "I avoided getting shot by bullets and blown up by bombs". The questioner then says "yes that is what had to happen for you to survive - but what did you do to avoid them" -- his answer "pray and follow all the saftey precautions we were trained to follow".

Avoiding the bullets and bombs is the "result" of prayer and effort in that case, and avoiding being shot was necessary to "survive" but the "how to survive" is not "avoid bullets" because that is the result of something else.

In the same way - Keeping God's commandments is the result of a born-again saved new-creation that "walks by the Spirit putting to death the deeds of the flesh" - who chooses to honor and obey the Word of God - instead of rebelling against it. But in this free will system - the saints may choose at any time to stop - to cease to persevere.

In fact Paul describes in Gal 5:4 those who have "fallen from Grace" and have been "severed from Christ"

So Paul says in Romans 11 "You should FEAR for you stand only by your faith - if He did not spare them NEITHER will he spare you".

And Christ said in "Matt 18" regarding his parable illustrating "forgiveness revoked" - "SO shall My Father do to each one of you if you do not forgive your brother from your heart".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Cutter]

Commandment keeping is evidence of one's faith and love of the Lord Jesus Christ, it is not what preserves one's salvation. I would hate to see the day where the keeping of my soul and the preservation of my salvation was contingent upon my own abilities. Even Paul as great a man as he was said, "...I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
Then two verses later he tells Timothy something along the same lines.
"That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.
Tis the strength and grace of the Lord Jesus that has kept me saved since 1975.

 

[annsni]

Annsni
I would have the same bad feeling your speaking of if i was to stand before the Lord and tell Him "Save me Lord im an illegallist, i did nothing you commanded me to do"

Oh I agree - but I would not look to my obedience as a reason to get me into heaven. I'd want my obedience to be in response to what Christ has done in me and as a result of my love for Him. My parents don't love me because I obey them. They love me because I'm their child. I obeyed them when I was under their authority because I loved them, not because it would get me rewards. Same with God.

 

[BillySunday1935]

Originally Posted by BillySunday1935
True - but there is more to it than that...

Matthew 6:14-15"14 If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you.15 But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions.”

We can't be saved if the Father does not forgive our sins, thus we must forgive [do something] in order to be saved.

That is not what it says is it?
Jesus was speaking to his disciples. They were already saved.

Well, if that is true then Jesus need not have said anything on the matter. Do you actually think that scripture was relevant to only his “saved” disciples? No - they were to go out and teach the Gospel which is clearly why He said this. Further, what about those “saved” disciples who left and no longer followed him in John 6:66? Were they still saved?

Obviously your conclusion is wrong.

Based upon what – your predilection for ignoring the obvious? Do you actually believe that the Father will forgive your sins if you refuse to forgive the transgressions of others? But don’t take my word for it – listen to Jesus himself!

Matthew 6:9-13
Our Father, who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name.
Thy Kingdom come,
thy will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom,
the power and the glory,
for ever and ever.

Luke 6: 46-49"Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' but not do what I command? I will show you what someone is like who comes to me, listens to my words, and acts on them. That one is like a person building a house, who dug deeply and laid the foundation on rock; when the flood came, the river burst against that house but could not shake it because it had been well built. But the one who listens and does not ACT is like a person who built a house on the ground without a foundation. When the river burst against it, it collapsed at once and was completely destroyed."

Hmmm... Looks like doing an ACT is a requirement to salvation also.

The Rock is Jesus. Unless your foundation is Jesus you cannot be saved.
1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Amen – Jesus is the cornerstone!

--If you are saved you will have believed on Christ who will have become the foundation of your life. Has this happened in your life?

Taking your premise to its ultimate conclusion… If I am saved, I will have believed on Christ and he will therefore be the foundation of my life. Thus, I will do his will as if an automaton. Unfortunately, this rules out free will and sin – which can also be the absence of DOING his will. Is sin absent from your life, DHK? You can dance around that scripture all day and it still says what it says.

continued….

 

[BillySunday1935]

continued...

Matthew 19:16-21"Now someone approached him and said, "Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?" He answered him, "Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." He asked him, "Which ones?" And Jesus replied, “‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness; honor your father and your mother'; and 'you shall love your neighbor as yourself.'" The young man said to him, "All of these I have observed. What do I still lack?" Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to (the) poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Wow - here are four more. According to Jesus we must keep the commandments, love our neighbor as ourselves, sell what we have giving it to the poor, and following Christ.

Was Jesus saying that this is the way to have eternal life? If so, have you sold all that you have, given it to the poor, and then followed Christ? Why not? You do want to go to heaven don't you?

For that individual he most certainly was saying it - after all, that was the question posed to him.

Jesus said, and I quote “…If you wish to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to (the) poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

Do I follow him? I try hard – but often fail. Am I perfect, no. Will I have treasure in Heaven? If I get there, then you bet!

You have just proposed that this is the way to heaven, so you must practice what you preach. Sell all that you have; give it to the poor; follow Christ, and then you shall be saved. Not until you do that can you be saved. This you must do. Have you done that? I will await your answer on this one.

I didn’t propose it – Jesus did! As to selling all that I have and following him – He is no longer on the Earth so it would be impossible for me, you, or anyone else to do that in the context of this scripture passage.

Mark 16:16 - Jesus said "He who believes AND is baptized will be saved." Jesus says believing is not enough. Baptism is also required - believe AND be baptized.

Baptism is a step of obedience after salvation. Have you taken it?

What does it say there, DHK? It says “He who believes AND is baptized will be saved.” Nowhere does scripture state that “…Baptism is a step of obedience after salvation.” That would be your reformed theological opinion and one that cannot be backed up by scripture, which I find rather ironic in that Sola Scriptura is the doctrinal mainstay of many (but not all) Protestant denominations.

James 1:22-24 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if any one is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who observes his natural face in a mirror; for he observes himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like.

James writes to Christians here; not the unsaved. Look at the context, near the beginning of the chapter. He is addressing "my brethren."

James 2:24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."

James says this because we are justified, and ultimately saved, through both our faith and works, and not just faith alone.

Rather, the teaching here is that works are the fruit of our faith.

Hogwash! Look at it in context...

James 2:14-26
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD ALSO.

Here, James is making a simple analogy; faith is made analogous to the body and works are made analogous to the spirit. As the body and spirit are both necessary for life (if we lose our spirit we lose our life), for this analogy to hold, faith and works are BOTH necessary for life. Faith without works is dead, just as the body without the spirit is dead. Thus, just as in physical life one needs the body and the spirit, for eternal life one needs faith AND works.

The "teaching" couldn’t be clearer.

John 9:31 "We know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He hears him.

Fear God AND do his will...

Those that fear God will do his will. That is a given.

So, if I fear God I will always do his will like some automaton? I doubt that can be said of anyone on the planet. Please clarify...

Romans 2:5-7"5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,6 who will repay everyone according to his works:7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness."

Many get caught up in a misinterpretation and misapplication of these verses. Read a bit further. These verses are addressed to the Jews.

We will be judged by our works…

2 Corinthians 5:8-10 (King James Version)8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Yes, as it says in verse 10, at the Judgment Seat of Christ, a Judgment for believers only. At this judgment the believer's works will be judged, but not for salvation, for reward or lack of reward. Salvation is not in question here.

So what would that “lack of reward” be - A shack in lieu of a mansion? Rivers of zinc instead of gold?

You conveniently ignore Romans 2:5-7 which preceded 2 Corinthians 5:8-10 in my original posting.

"5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay EVERYONE according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness."

I'll break this down again for you...

God, who will repay EVERYONE according to his works

...that's EVERYONE there, DHK - no one gets a pass.

...and HOW will God repay us?

With Eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works

...or...

With Wrath and fury [eternal damnation] to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.

It could not be more obvious that the judgement spoken of here most certainly IS about salvation and it includes EVERYONE. Your position is completely unbiblical.

Peace!

 

[BillySunday1935]

Man, if I had to stand before God and say "I should get into heaven because I forgave others, obeyed every commandment, loved my neighbor, sell what I had and gave to the poor, did all sorts of works, and was baptized.", I think I'd go to hell.

Instead I'll stick with what God says:

"Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved" (Acts 16:31)

True - belief is necessary. However, notice that the verse states that you WILL be saved - not that you SHALL be saved. Belief is an assent of the will and as such, it can be changed. One can certainly fall away and have one's name erased from the book of life.

"if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved" (Romans 10:9)

Again - note the use of the word "will..."

"For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

Great! I'll just call on the name of the Lord and - bingo - a free ticket to heaven. What a sweet deal... (That word "will..." just won't go away will it?)

Look, it is abundantly clear from scripture (that is, if you take scripture in its totallity) that this is a process and NOT a one time shot. Here's something that I've posted for you before - to which, as I recall, you never responded.

"I have been saved"
Ephesians 2:4-5:
But God, who is rich in mercy, because of the great love he had for us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, brought us to life with Christ (by grace you have been saved).

2 Cor 5:17 “So whoever is in Christ is a new creation”

"I am being saved"
1 Corinthians 1:18:
The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

1 Cor 15:2 “Through it (the gospel) you are also being saved, if you hold fast (persevere) to the word I preached to you, unless you believed in vain”.

"I will be saved"
Mark 13:13:
You will be hated by all because of my name. But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

Rom 5:9 “How much more then, since we are now justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath”.

And speaking of the "wrath"...


Romans 2:5-7
5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay EVERYONE according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness."

Let's break it down...

God, who will repay EVERYONE according to his works

a) EVERYONE will be judged - great and small

...and HOW will God repay us?

With Eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works

...or...

With wrath and fury [eternal damnation] to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.

It seems that you have a big theological problem with other parts of scripture. I posted this to you before and all I got was some non-biblical repsonse regarding something about rewards...

Peace!