Can ANY Arminian KNOW that Heaven is his home?

[psalms109:31]

Spirit and life

The words you carry is Spirit and life, you have the regenerated power of God, that you can give freely to anyone who trust in Christ. When they trust in Christ they have been regenerated and believe Christ and trust they are going to heaven. Jesus said you believe trust in Christ you shall be save if not you will be condemned. It is pretty cut and dry, black and white.

John 6:43"Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.'[Isaiah 54:13] Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

 

[Winman]

Read the other passage I posted for the answer to that.

Do you understand that the new nature and the new creature are the same thing?

I understand it, and I believe it. But you need to specifically show what verses you are presenting as evidence for what you believe. Saying "read 1 John" is not all that helpful. I know of several verses in 1 John that support what you are saying, but I want to see specific verses.

What I am asking you is how you know you have the new nature? Is it because you love the brethren? Well, the Jehovah's Witnesses love each other and they are as lost as you can get. But they probably tell each other they know they have the new nature because they love each other.

Do you understand that? The Mormons all love each other too, does that prove they have the new nature?

 

[Luke2427]

I understand it, and I believe it. But you need to specifically show what verses you are presenting as evidence for what you believe. Saying "read 1 John" is not all that helpful. I know of several verses in 1 John that support what you are saying, but I want to see specific verses.

What I am asking you is how you know you have the new nature? Is it because you love the brethren? Well, the Jehovah's Witnesses love each other and they are as lost as you can get. But they probably tell each other they know they have the new nature because they love each other.

Do you understand that? The Mormons all love each other too, does that prove they have the new nature?

Loving true brethren is the evidence. Then keeping God's commandments, the inner witness of the spirit- all of these are good foundations to rest assurance on- all of them relate to the new nature. These and others are the "these things" of I John 5:13 that enable us to "KNOW that ye have eternal life."

But believing is not a good basis. Believing brings salvation not assurance of it.

 

[Winman]

Loving true brethren is the evidence. Then keeping God's commandments, the inner witness of the spirit- all of these are good foundations to rest assurance on- all of them relate to the new nature. These and others are the "these things" of I John 5:13 that enable us to "KNOW that ye have eternal life."

But believing is not a good basis. Believing brings salvation not assurance of it.

I agree, but a person can belong to a church that teaches works salvation. They could truly be following God's commandments as they understand them, they could all be in unity and love each other. This is actually the case with many false churches.

They may believe themselves saved for the very reasons you cite, but not be saved.

Isn't this so?

So, I do not agree with you that observing your own behavior or of others is proof of salvation.

 

[Luke2427]

I agree, but a person can belong to a church that teaches works salvation. They could truly be following God's commandments as they understand them, they could all be in unity and love each other. This is actually the case with many false churches.

They may believe themselves saved for the very reasons you cite, but not be saved.

Isn't this so?

So, I do not agree with you that observing your own behavior or of others is proof of salvation.

Nobody said anything about behavior for the second or third time. And you are not disagreeing with me but with the Apostle John and the Apostle Paul and the Holy Spirit who inspired them.

 

[Athanasian Creed]

Calvinists who believe that Arminians live in fear of falling have ONLY fear. Because Calvinists can never KNOW they're saved, until they DIE (and prove by dying-in-faith, by perseverance) that their faith was REAL.


Only perseverance proves "real faith", being one of God's elect.
Only death ends the question of "will he CONTINUE to persevere"...
The FALSE (unelect) can believe, and can persevere for a while...
...but the false will ultimately (before dying), FALL...
...if a person dies AFTER falling, he never WAS "elect"...
...if a person dies WITHOUT falling, he proved his electness BY perseverance...

Thus you cannot know you're "really elect", until you die.

That's really fearful, isn't it?

Furthermore, Calvin taught 'evanescent grace' that God deliberately deceived some of those He has reprobated to believe and imagine themselves saved when, in fact, that was not the case -

“... Experience shows that the reprobate are sometimes affected in a way so similar to the elect that even in their own judgment there is no difference between them. Hence, it is not strange, that by the Apostle a taste of heavenly gifts, and by Christ himself a temporary faith is ascribed to them. Not that they truly perceive the power of spiritual grace and the sure light of faith; but the Lord, the better to convict them, and leave them without excuse, instills into their minds such a sense of goodness as can be felt without the Spirit of adoption .... there is a great resemblance and affinity between the elect of God and those who are impressed for a time with a fading faith .... Still it is correctly said, that the reprobate believe God to be propitious to them, inasmuch as they accept the gift of reconciliation, though confusedly and without due discernment; not that they are partakers of the same faith or regeneration with the children of God; but because, under a covering of hypocrisy they seem to have a principle of faith in common with them. Nor do I even deny that God illumines their mind to this extent .... there is nothing inconsistent in this with the fact of his enlightening some with a present sense of grace, which afterwards proves evanescent” (3.2.11, Institutes).

In light of John Calvin’s teaching, the salvation assurance that Calvinists speak of is merely empty words, since they won’t really know until the very end of their lives if they were elect or not! Perhaps God just granted them an evanescent grace in which they feel saved but really aren’t. [By this teaching, Calvinists shockingly portray the God who cannot lie (Titus 1:2) as forcing untrue feelings on some people, in order to deceive them!]

How could any Calvinist truly be sure of Heaven himself? Though they might speak or write of salvation assurance, such really isn’t consistent with Calvinism! According to that theology, Calvinists might have been merely reprobates all along and have only been given by God an evanescent grace.



Ray

 

[Eagle]

Athanasian Creed, Well Put.

 

[Winman]

Calvinists who believe that Arminians live in fear of falling have ONLY fear. Because Calvinists can never KNOW they're saved, until they DIE (and prove by dying-in-faith, by perseverance) that their faith was REAL.


Only perseverance proves "real faith", being one of God's elect.
Only death ends the question of "will he CONTINUE to persevere"...
The FALSE (unelect) can believe, and can persevere for a while...
...but the false will ultimately (before dying), FALL...
...if a person dies AFTER falling, he never WAS "elect"...
...if a person dies WITHOUT falling, he proved his electness BY perseverance...

Thus you cannot know you're "really elect", until you die.

That's really fearful, isn't it?

Furthermore, Calvin taught 'evanescent grace' that God deliberately deceived some of those He has reprobated to believe and imagine themselves saved when, in fact, that was not the case -

“... Experience shows that the reprobate are sometimes affected in a way so similar to the elect that even in their own judgment there is no difference between them. Hence, it is not strange, that by the Apostle a taste of heavenly gifts, and by Christ himself a temporary faith is ascribed to them. Not that they truly perceive the power of spiritual grace and the sure light of faith; but the Lord, the better to convict them, and leave them without excuse, instills into their minds such a sense of goodness as can be felt without the Spirit of adoption .... there is a great resemblance and affinity between the elect of God and those who are impressed for a time with a fading faith .... Still it is correctly said, that the reprobate believe God to be propitious to them, inasmuch as they accept the gift of reconciliation, though confusedly and without due discernment; not that they are partakers of the same faith or regeneration with the children of God; but because, under a covering of hypocrisy they seem to have a principle of faith in common with them. Nor do I even deny that God illumines their mind to this extent .... there is nothing inconsistent in this with the fact of his enlightening some with a present sense of grace, which afterwards proves evanescent” (3.2.11, Institutes).

In light of John Calvin’s teaching, the salvation assurance that Calvinists speak of is merely empty words, since they won’t really know until the very end of their lives if they were elect or not! Perhaps God just granted them an evanescent grace in which they feel saved but really aren’t. [By this teaching, Calvinists shockingly portray the God who cannot lie (Titus 1:2) as forcing untrue feelings on some people, in order to deceive them!]

How could any Calvinist truly be sure of Heaven himself? Though they might speak or write of salvation assurance, such really isn’t consistent with Calvinism! According to that theology, Calvinists might have been merely reprobates all along and have only been given by God an evanescent grace.

Ray

That is an excellent post. And Calvin teaching that an unregenerate person can truly be deceived and believe themselves regenerate should be terrifying to any Calvinist.

This has been my argument as well, you can never know you are saved if you believe a person must persevere, because you cannot know for certain that you will persevere until the moment you die. So, Calvinists are no more certain of salvation than Arminians. Actually, they believe the exact same thing whether they realize it or not.

Jesus showed that salvation is a once and for all event.

John 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

The scriptures use many words for believing. In these verses drinketh is synonymous with believing. It means to depend or rely upon. We do rely upon water to sustain us daily, without water we would all die within several days.

The water here is the Holy Spirit (John 7:37-39). In this passage Jesus shows that a person who drinks normal water has to return and drink over and over again continuously.

But the water Jesus gives (Holy Spirit) quenches your thirst once and for all. You do not need to drink again, your thirst is quenched forever.

And this is what the scriptures teach, once you come to Christ in faith and dependence, he gives you the Holy Spirit and everlasting life. You do not need to come back for it again and again. You cannot sin it away, although sin breaks fellowship with Jesus and should be confessed to reestablish fellowship.

But one only need to take one single drink of the water (Holy Spirit) that Jesus offers. He will never thirst again.

There is no perserverance in true salvation. You have everlasting life NOW.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

 

[J.D.]

That is an excellent post. And Calvin teaching that an unregenerate person can truly be deceived and believe themselves regenerate should be terrifying to any Calvinist.

This has been my argument as well, you can never know you are saved if you believe a person must persevere, because you cannot know for certain that you will persevere until the moment you die. So, Calvinists are no more certain of salvation than Arminians. Actually, they believe the exact same thing whether they realize it or not.

Jesus showed that salvation is a once and for all event.

John 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

The scriptures use many words for believing. In these verses drinketh is synonymous with believing. It means to depend or rely upon. We do rely upon water to sustain us daily, without water we would all die within several days.

The water here is the Holy Spirit (John 7:37-39). In this passage Jesus shows that a person who drinks normal water has to return and drink over and over again continuously.

But the water Jesus gives (Holy Spirit) quenches your thirst once and for all. You do not need to drink again, your thirst is quenched forever.

And this is what the scriptures teach, once you come to Christ in faith and dependence, he gives you the Holy Spirit and everlasting life. You do not need to come back for it again and again. You cannot sin it away, although sin breaks fellowship with Jesus and should be confessed to reestablish fellowship.

But one only need to take one single drink of the water (Holy Spirit) that Jesus offers. He will never thirst again.

There is no perserverance in true salvation. You have everlasting life NOW.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Let me see if I understood you correctly: You don't believe a lost person can be deceived into thinking they are saved? Is that right?

 

[Winman]

Let me see if I understood you correctly: You don't believe a lost person can be deceived into thinking they are saved? Is that right?

No, I DO believe a lost person can be deceived and believe themselves saved, that is why depending on perserverance can never give assurance of salvation.

If your salvation depends on your faithfulness, then you can never be sure of heaven, because we all fall and fail constantly.

However if your salvation depends on Jesus's faithfulness, then you can be sure.

Jesus said that whosoever comes to him, he will in no wise cast them out. He didn't say you have to come over and over again, he just said come.

I know in my heart that I sincerely went to Jesus and asked him to forgive my sins and save me. I know for an absolute fact that I did that, and I know that I sincerely meant that.

Well, my salvation now depends on Jesus keeping his promise. He said if I come to him, he would in no way cast me out. Therefore I can know by God's Word that I am saved, because Jesus cannot lie, it is impossible.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

My assurance isn't based on my perservering, and I am very happy that is so. I am a very fallible person, and I am not always faithful to Jesus. But Jesus is faithful to me (and anyone who comes to him). I am a liar, but Jesus is not.

If I had to depend upon my faithfulness to Jesus, I would be very worried indeed. But that is not the case, I depend upon his faithfulness.

Depending on perservering is depending upon one's self. Oh, you might do well for awhile, but sooner or later you will fail, we all do.

No, I am glad I do not have to depend upon myself, I know I would fail. But Jesus will never fail or disappoint. He told me to come to him and I did, and I know he will not cast me out under any circumstance.

 

[J.D.]

No, I DO believe a lost person can be deceived and believe themselves saved, that is why depending on perserverance can never give assurance of salvation.

If your salvation depends on your faithfulness, then you can never be sure of heaven, because we all fall and fail constantly.

However if your salvation depends on Jesus's faithfulness, then you can be sure.

Jesus said that whosoever comes to him, he will in no wise cast them out. He didn't say you have to come over and over again, he just said come.

I know in my heart that I sincerely went to Jesus and asked him to forgive my sins and save me. I know for an absolute fact that I did that, and I know that I sincerely meant that.

Well, my salvation now depends on Jesus keeping his promise. He said if I come to him, he would in no way cast me out. Therefore I can know by God's Word that I am saved, because Jesus cannot lie, it is impossible.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

My assurance isn't based on my perservering, and I am very happy that is so. I am a very fallible person, and I am not always faithful to Jesus. But Jesus is faithful to me (and anyone who comes to him). I am a liar, but Jesus is not.

If I had to depend upon my faithfulness to Jesus, I would be very worried indeed. But that is not the case, I depend upon his faithfulness.

Depending on perservering is depending upon one's self. Oh, you might do well for awhile, but sooner or later you will fail, we all do.

No, I am glad I do not have to depend upon myself, I know I would fail. But Jesus will never fail or disappoint. He told me to come to him and I did, and I know he will not cast me out under any circumstance.

Thanks for that clarification. That makes sense. But I don't understand why you think I should be terrified because I believe in perseverence. I know I am saved because I know whom I have believed, and I believe that God will deliver me from doubts and temptations to disbelieve along the way, and will be continually and finally preseved by his power that enables me to persevere in faith. Nothing terrifying about that, is there?

 

[Winman]

Well, I kind of believe that. It is very difficult for me to believe that any person who sincerely believes Jesus is the Son of God who died for their sins and rose from the dead could ever stop believing that.

But why do I have to persevere? Jesus has already given me eternal life, I have it now.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Why do you have to persevere if you are already a son of God?

John 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Jesus said if you drink of the water he gives you you will never thirst again. That one drink turns into a well that springs up of itself. I don't need to persevere, I don't need to continuously come back over and over again. That is the very point Jesus is making in this conversation with the Samaritan woman. With normal water you DO have to come back over and over again, but with the water Jesus gives you you do not.

 

[Winman]

A little more...

I believe those persons who are deceived and believe themselves saved when they are not are those who are depending on their own works. And that is what perserverance really comes down to, depending on one's own actions.

Lots of churches teach that a person must turn from sin to be saved. They have to stop sinning. I don't know about you, but I find that impossible to perform. I would be in pure torment if I thought I had to live every day without sin to be saved, I can't do it.

But I have met people who believe this. I once knew a fellow from a "holiness" church. He actually believed a person could stop sinning, in fact he told me there was an old man in his church who had not sinned in years.

One day I bet this fellow he could not go 24 hours without sinning. He said, "Oh, that is easy! I can easily go 24 hours without sinning!"

I said to him, "The scriptures say that boasting is a sin, you just boasted, so you just sinned."

You should have seen the look that fellow gave me, I thought for a second he was going to take a swing at me. He rarely talked to me after that.

But this fellow thought he was going to go to heaven because he had turned from sin. He thought he would be saved because he had quit sinning. In reality, he was very deceived and sinned constantly just like the rest of us. But he had a way of ignoring his own sinfulness.

This is a deceived person. They have convinced themselves they will go to heaven because they are leading a good life. And in reality, this fellow was a very good person compared to most people. He really did live a good life in many ways. But he had never realized he was a sinner who could not save himself through his own effort and went to Jesus for salvation. Only Jesus has the power to save any of us.

You don't have to do any work to be saved, so why would you think you would have to work to stay saved?

 

[Luke2427]

Calvinists who believe that Arminians live in fear of falling have ONLY fear. Because Calvinists can never KNOW they're saved, until they DIE (and prove by dying-in-faith, by perseverance) that their faith was REAL.


Only perseverance proves "real faith", being one of God's elect.
Only death ends the question of "will he CONTINUE to persevere"...
The FALSE (unelect) can believe, and can persevere for a while...
...but the false will ultimately (before dying), FALL...
...if a person dies AFTER falling, he never WAS "elect"...
...if a person dies WITHOUT falling, he proved his electness BY perseverance...

Thus you cannot know you're "really elect", until you die.

That's really fearful, isn't it?

Furthermore, Calvin taught 'evanescent grace' that God deliberately deceived some of those He has reprobated to believe and imagine themselves saved when, in fact, that was not the case -

“... Experience shows that the reprobate are sometimes affected in a way so similar to the elect that even in their own judgment there is no difference between them. Hence, it is not strange, that by the Apostle a taste of heavenly gifts, and by Christ himself a temporary faith is ascribed to them. Not that they truly perceive the power of spiritual grace and the sure light of faith; but the Lord, the better to convict them, and leave them without excuse, instills into their minds such a sense of goodness as can be felt without the Spirit of adoption .... there is a great resemblance and affinity between the elect of God and those who are impressed for a time with a fading faith .... Still it is correctly said, that the reprobate believe God to be propitious to them, inasmuch as they accept the gift of reconciliation, though confusedly and without due discernment; not that they are partakers of the same faith or regeneration with the children of God; but because, under a covering of hypocrisy they seem to have a principle of faith in common with them. Nor do I even deny that God illumines their mind to this extent .... there is nothing inconsistent in this with the fact of his enlightening some with a present sense of grace, which afterwards proves evanescent” (3.2.11, Institutes).

In light of John Calvin’s teaching, the salvation assurance that Calvinists speak of is merely empty words, since they won’t really know until the very end of their lives if they were elect or not! Perhaps God just granted them an evanescent grace in which they feel saved but really aren’t. [By this teaching, Calvinists shockingly portray the God who cannot lie (Titus 1:2) as forcing untrue feelings on some people, in order to deceive them!]

How could any Calvinist truly be sure of Heaven himself? Though they might speak or write of salvation assurance, such really isn’t consistent with Calvinism! According to that theology, Calvinists might have been merely reprobates all along and have only been given by God an evanescent grace.



Ray

You obviously have not read this thread. We have already proven that Calvinists do not believe what you accuse them of. The reprobate has no real cause to believe he is saved. The truly regenerate has something the false convert does not have- the holy Spirit and the new nature. therefore the truly regenerate can know that he is saved and KNOW that he will be in heaven one day. the Arminian belief system keeps him from this blessed assuracne of future glory.

The Calvinist has assurance the same way the Arminian has assurance. The only difference is that once the Calvinist knows he is saved he can know that he will go to heaven.

The Arminian can know that he is saved but he has no idea if he will go to heaven one day because he believes it is possible that he may stop believing one day and still wind up in hell.

 

[Winman]

You obviously have not read this thread. We have already proven that Calvinists do not believe what you accuse them of. The reprobate has no real cause to believe he is saved. The truly regenerate has something the false convert does not have- the holy Spirit and the new nature. therefore the truly regenerate can know that he is saved and KNOW that he will be in heaven one day. the Arminian belief system keeps him from this blessed assuracne of future glory.

The Calvinist has assurance the same way the Arminian has assurance. The only difference is that once the Calvinist knows he is saved he can know that he will go to heaven.

The Arminian can know that he is saved but he has no idea if he will go to heaven one day because he believes it is possible that he may stop believing one day and still wind up in hell.

Well, you are just plain wrong. Calvin himself said he believed the unregenerate could be thorougly convinced within himself that he is saved.

Experience shows that the reprobate are sometimes affected in a way so similar to the elect that even in their own judgment there is no difference between them. Hence, it is not strange, that by the Apostle a taste of heavenly gifts, and by Christ himself a temporary faith is ascribed to them. Not that they truly perceive the power of spiritual grace and the sure light of faith; but the Lord, the better to convict them, and leave them without excuse, instills into their minds such a sense of goodness as can be felt without the Spirit of adoption .... there is a great resemblance and affinity between the elect of God and those who are impressed for a time with a fading faith .... Still it is correctly said, that the reprobate believe God to be propitious to them, inasmuch as they accept the gift of reconciliation, though confusedly and without due discernment; not that they are partakers of the same faith or regeneration with the children of God; but because, under a covering of hypocrisy they seem to have a principle of faith in common with them. Nor do I even deny that God illumines their mind to this extent .... there is nothing inconsistent in this with the fact of his enlightening some with a present sense of grace, which afterwards proves evanescent” (3.2.11, Institutes).

Now, you may disagree with Calvin, but Calvin taught that a man can be sincerely deceived and believe himself saved when not. Calvin even taught that this deception came from God himself.

And that is the point I have been trying to make. If you believe your behavior proves to yourself you are saved, then you could be deceived. This is exactly what Jesus showed.

Matt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

What did these persons claim as their basis for salvation? Their works. They called Jesus the Lord, they prophesied in his name, they cast out devils, they did many great works.

And this is what I am saying, you cannot look upon your works as proof you have been regenerated. You might say, "See, I am doing all these good things in the name of Jesus, that is proof I have the Holy Spirit."

No, you must come to Jesus and personally trust him to save you to know you are saved. The Pharisee was convinced by his works that he was saved but was wrong. The publican made no such claim but merely cast himself upon the mercy of Christ and was saved.

Luke 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

If you want to know you are saved, cast yourself upon Jesus as the publican did.

 

[Luke2427]

Well, you are just plain wrong. Calvin himself said he believed the unregenerate could be thorougly convinced within himself that he is saved.



Now, you may disagree with Calvin, but Calvin taught that a man can be sincerely deceived and believe himself saved when not. Calvin even taught that this deception came from God himself.

You are misrepresenting Calvin.

Calvin did believe like I suppose EVERYONE believes that there are multitudes who wrongly believe they are Christians.

there are also thousands of insane people who believe they are Elvis.

So what????????????????

Those people are wrong because they base their beliefs on erroneous premises.

Christians can know they are saved for totally different reasons than deluded lost people THINK they are saved.

The Christian's reason is the new nature. This Christian can know that he is saved and know that he will be in heaven one day- unless of course he is an Arminian. Then he can only know he is saved presently and REALLY hope that he hangs on to the end.

 

[Winman]

You are misrepresenting Calvin.

Calvin did believe like I suppose EVERYONE believes that there are multitudes who wrongly believe they are Christians.

there are also thousands of insane people who believe they are Elvis.

So what????????????????

Those people are wrong because they base their beliefs on erroneous premises.

Christians can know they are saved for totally different reasons than deluded lost people THINK they are saved.

The Christian's reason is the new nature. This Christian can know that he is saved and know that he will be in heaven one day- unless of course he is an Arminian. Then he can only know he is saved presently and REALLY hope that he hangs on to the end.

Then please explain to me (and I am being completely sincere here) how you know you have the Holy Spirit. Please go into some detail so I can understand your position. How do you know for a fact you have the new nature?

I am not completely in disagreement with you. The book of 1 John gives many evidences of being born again, for instance, a true believer will love the brethren. I absolutely believe that, a true Christian will absolutely love other true Christians.

But the problem is, people who are not true Chrisitians love each other as well. If you were to go to a meeting of Jehovah's Witnesses, you would see they are all in unity and love each other very much. And they will use the same verse in 1 John to tell you this is proof they are true Christians.

Do you understand that?

 

[Luke2427]

Then please explain to me (and I am being completely sincere here) how you know you have the Holy Spirit. Please go into some detail so I can understand your position. How do you know for a fact you have the new nature?

I am not completely in disagreement with you. The book of 1 John gives many evidences of being born again, for instance, a true believer will love the brethren. I absolutely believe that, a true Christian will absolutely love other true Christians.

But the problem is, people who are not true Chrisitians love each other as well. If you were to go to a meeting of Jehovah's Witnesses, you would see they are all in unity and love each other very much. And they will use the same verse in 1 John to tell you this is proof they are true Christians.

Do you understand that?

Alright. I'll do my best. But first I need to understand your hang up here.

Is it your contention that NO Christian can know that he is saved?

If not, how, in your thinking, does a Christian KNOW that he is saved- and what do you base that thinking upon?

 

[Winman]

Alright. I'll do my best. But first I need to understand your hang up here.

Is it your contention that NO Christian can know that he is saved?

If not, how, in your thinking, does a Christian KNOW that he is saved- and what do you base that thinking upon?

I don't know how you could have missed how I know I am saved, I have stated it several times.

I know I am saved because I know for a fact I went to Jesus in my heart and cast myself upon him for forgiveness of sins. And Jesus said whoever comes to him will not be cast out for any reason whatsoever.

I do not know because of my behavior. Now I fully believe I have the Holy Spirit, and I believe I can sense the Holy Spirit within me. And I have seen evidences within myself of this. I have always had a compulsion to tell others of Christ. I have a great desire to tell others of Christ and see them saved. I truly believe this is the Holy Spirit working within me.

But my assurance comes from the direct statements of Jesus. My assurance is based on the perfect Word of God.

That's why I get so upset with folks that think the Bible is full of error. How can you sincerely trust a book you believe is full of error?

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Now I know for an absolute fact I went in my heart to Jesus and asked him to save me. And therefore I know I am saved because Jesus said he would not cast me out under any circumstance.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

I know I called on Jesus to forgive my sins. I know I believe Jesus is the Son of God who died for me and rose from the dead. And so I know by God's Word that I am saved.

But if I depended on my actions I would not be sure at all. Oh, for the most part, I behave like a good Christian should. But there have been many times I have been unfaithful to Jesus and fell into sin. If I were to judge my salvation by my works at those times, I would believe myself lost.

No, I know I am saved because the Word of God says I am saved, and Jesus cannot lie.

 

[Luke2427]

I don't know how you could have missed how I know I am saved, I have stated it several times.

I know I am saved because I know for a fact I went to Jesus in my heart and cast myself upon him for forgiveness of sins. And Jesus said whoever comes to him will not be cast out for any reason whatsoever.

I do not know because of my behavior. Now I fully believe I have the Holy Spirit, and I believe I can sense the Holy Spirit within me. And I have seen evidences within myself of this. I have always had a compulsion to tell others of Christ. I have a great desire to tell others of Christ and see them saved. I truly believe this is the Holy Spirit working within me.

But my assurance comes from the direct statements of Jesus. My assurance is based on the perfect Word of God.

That's why I get so upset with folks that think the Bible is full of error. How can you sincerely trust a book you believe is full of error?

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Now I know for an absolute fact I went in my heart to Jesus and asked him to save me. And therefore I know I am saved because Jesus said he would not cast me out under any circumstance.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

I know I called on Jesus to forgive my sins. I know I believe Jesus is the Son of God who died for me and rose from the dead. And so I know by God's Word that I am saved.

But if I depended on my actions I would not be sure at all. Oh, for the most part, I behave like a good Christian should. But there have been many times I have been unfaithful to Jesus and fell into sin. If I were to judge my salvation by my works at those times, I would believe myself lost.

No, I know I am saved because the Word of God says I am saved, and Jesus cannot lie.

It sounds to me like you pretty well have it nailed. You have the inner witness of the Holy Spirit, you desire to tell others about Christ (which is one of Christ's commandments that you desire to keep), I imagine if a brother in Christ desperately needed something you would sincerely want to get it for him.

These are the proofs in I John and elsewhere that confirm our genuine conversion.

NOBODY has these but the truly regenerate. You did not have them before you were saved. You have them now and thereby you know that you are saved.

Mormons and JW's don't have this. They love self righteousness and a sense of community which is no different than those humanists who built the Tower of Babel.

You answered your own question well in my opinion. You are saved because you trusted in Christ. You KNOW you are saved because you have the inner witness of the Spirit and the new nature.