Can ANY Arminian KNOW that Heaven is his home?

[Winman]

It sounds to me like you pretty well have it nailed. You have the inner witness of the Holy Spirit, you desire to tell others about Christ (which is one of Christ's commandments that you desire to keep), I imagine if a brother in Christ desperately needed something you would sincerely want to get it for him.

These are the proofs is I John and elsewhere that confirm our genuine conversion.

NOBODY had these but the truly regenerate. You did not have them before you were saved. You have them now and thereby you know that you are saved.

Mormons and JW's don't have this. They love self righteousness and a sense of community which is no different than those humanists who built the Tower of Babel.

You answered your own question well in my opinion. You are saved because you trusted in Christ. You KNOW you are saved because you have the inner witness of the Spirit and the new nature.

I absolutely disagree with you. The Mormons go through my neighborhood all the time, I spoke to a couple of them maybe two months ago.

In fact, false teachers are some of the most aggressive people you can find. As Jesus said, they will cross sea and land to make a proselyte.

Matt 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Years ago I had several Mormons who came to my house probably two to three times a week for months to try to convince me to join their church. Of course, I preached the Bible to them and ran them off.

So, if you say only true Christians have these qualities, you are sadly mistaken.

 

[Winman]

What I am saying to you is that you cannot base your salvation on experience.

The Pentacostals will put you to shame on this. In their view, you do not have the Holy Spirit because you would speak in tongues, have revelations, be slain in the spirit, etc...

This is what happens when you base your salvation on experience.

A Pentacostal will tell you they know they are saved by the evidence of the Holy Spirit in their life. Their assurance is based solely on experience.

 

[Luke2427]

I absolutely disagree with you. The Mormons go through my neighborhood all the time, I spoke to a couple of them maybe two months ago.

In fact, false teachers are some of the most aggressive people you can find. As Jesus said, they will cross sea and land to make a proselyte.

Matt 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Years ago I had several Mormons who came to my house probably two to three times a week for months to try to convince me to join their church. Of course, I preached the Bible to them and ran them off.

So, if you say only true Christians have these qualities, you are sadly mistaken.

I don't understand what you disagree with me about in this post. Please clarify.

 

[Luke2427]

What I am saying to you is that you cannot base your salvation on experience.

The Pentacostals will put you to shame on this. In their view, you do not have the Holy Spirit because you would speak in tongues, have revelations, be slain in the spirit, etc...

This is what happens when you base your salvation on experience.

A Pentacostal will tell you they know they are saved by the evidence of the Holy Spirit in their life. Their assurance is based solely on experience.

I cannot comprehend why you keep arguing against things I have not said nor that I ascribe to.

You will not find in any of my posts that I am arguing that assurance comes via experience.
Earlier you were (I think it was you) arguing that I was purporting that "performance" grants assurance- this concept is foreign to my posts as well.

But when you contend that the new nature is not the element whereby we have assurance of genuine conversion, you disagree with the Scriptures- not me. Also, you are disagreeing with your own testimony as I have pointed out a few posts back.

 

[drfuss]

What I am saying to you is that you cannot base your salvation on experience.

The Pentacostals will put you to shame on this. In their view, you do not have the Holy Spirit because you would speak in tongues, have revelations, be slain in the spirit, etc...

This is what happens when you base your salvation on experience.

A Pentacostal will tell you they know they are saved by the evidence of the Holy Spirit in their life. Their assurance is based solely on experience.

Many of the Pentecostal cults (Oneness denominations) do believe as you said above, and are very vocal about it on the radio. However, the large Pentecostal denominations (such as the Assempblies of God, Pentecostal Church of God, and the Foursquare Gospel) base their assurance of salvation on continued belief and not on speaking in tongues. These pentecoatal denominations and the SBC both consider the Oneness denominations as cults.

This is only just to clarify that most pentecostals do not believe as the Oneness Pentecostals do.

 

[Winman]

I cannot comprehend why you keep arguing against things I have not said nor that I ascribe to.

You will not find in any of my posts that I am arguing that assurance comes via experience.
Earlier you were (I think it was you) arguing that I was purporting that "performance" grants assurance- this concept is foreign to my posts as well.

But when you contend that the new nature is not the element whereby we have assurance of genuine conversion, you disagree with the Scriptures- not me. Also, you are disagreeing with your own testimony as I have pointed out a few posts back.

What I have asked you several times to explain to me is how you know for a fact you have the new nature.

That would be very helpful. You keep insisting that your assurace comes from having the new nature, and I have asked you to explain that. And please, give a little detail so myself and others can understand your position.

 

[Luke2427]

What I have asked you several times to explain to me is how you know for a fact you have the new nature.

That would be very helpful. You keep insisting that your assurace comes from having the new nature, and I have asked you to explain that. And please, give a little detail so myself and others can understand your position.

You have asked me that several time, and I suppose I have not made it clear when I was answering.

One of the answers I gave is my response to your testimony that you shared. You have the new nature according to your own testimony and that is how you know that you are saved. You said so yourself.

You said something to the effect of- I want to tell others about Christ. Well, that's loving your neighbor as yourself which is one of His commandments that you keep.

You said something about sensing the Holy Spirit in you- well, that's the inner witness of the Spirit.

It does not matter what you THINK gives assurance of salvation. It only matters what God's Word says gives assurance of salvation. God's word says that the new nature is what gives that. The New Nature entails a love for the brethren, keeping Christ's commandments, the Holy Spirit living inside of you, etc...

Before I was saved, I did not love Christians. I preferred to associate with the godless. I did not give to missions out of a heart that longs to see Christ exalted and my neighbors converted. I did not have the Comforter living inside of me helping me when I am hurting, calming me when I am upset, teaching me wondrous things out of the Scriptures about my Savior, creating in me an appetite for the things of God, pricking my heart when I displeased God, assuring me of forgiveness when I confess my sins, etc... I had none of those things before the new birth. Now they are the guiding principles of my life. This is because God has made me a New Creature inwardly as he has you.

For these reasons and more, I KNOW that I am saved. They are very similar to the reasons you articulated earlier. You don't KNOW you are saved because you are believing. You got saved that way. You know that believing brought about genuine conversion because you possess the New Nature.

Praise be to God for assurance and security that rests completely in his works in our lives!

 

[thegospelgeek]

You have asked me that several time, and I suppose I have not made it clear when I was answering.

One of the answers I gave is my response to your testimony that you shared. You have the new nature according to your own testimony and that is how you know that you are saved. You said so yourself.

You said something to the effect of- I want to tell others about Christ. Well, that's loving your neighbor as yourself which is one of His commandments that you keep.

You said something about sensing the Holy Spirit in you- well, that's the inner witness of the Spirit.

It does not matter what you THINK gives assurance of salvation. It only matters what God's Word says gives assurance of salvation. God's word says that the new nature is what gives that. The New Nature entails a love for the brethren, keeping Christ's commandments, the Holy Spirit living inside of you, etc...

Before I was saved, I did not love Christians. I preferred to associate with the godless. I did not give to missions out of a heart that longs to see Christ exalted and my neighbors converted. I did not have the Comforter living inside of me helping me when I am hurting, calming me when I am upset, teaching me wondrous things out of the Scriptures about my Savior, creating in me an appetite for the things of God, pricking my heart when I displeased God, assuring me of forgiveness when I confess my sins, etc... I had none of those things before the new birth. Now they are the guiding principles of my life. This is because God has made me a New Creature inwardly as he has you.

For these reasons and more, I KNOW that I am saved. They are very similar to the reasons you articulated earlier. You don't KNOW you are saved because you are believing. You got saved that way. You know that believing brought about genuine conversion because you possess the New Nature.

Praise be to God for assurance and security that rests completely in his works in our lives!

What about the Preacher who makes the same testemony? Who he also be saved, without a doubt?

 

[Luke2427]

What about the Preacher who makes the same testemony? Who he also be saved, without a doubt?

I'm sorry. I don't understand the question.

 

[thegospelgeek]

I'm sorry. I don't understand the question.

If a preacher or any other Christian has the same testimony as you. That he now loves the bretheren, has a desire to spread the Gospel, etc Has a new nature. Are they assured of salvation?

 

[Luke2427]

If a preacher or any other Christian has the same testimony as you. That he now loves the bretheren, has a desire to spread the Gospel, etc Has a new nature. Are they assured of salvation?

If he has the new nature he has every right to KNOW that he is saved.

 

[thegospelgeek]

If he has the new nature he has every right to KNOW that he is saved.

I agree, the Bible says that by your fruit they shall know you. It also says that you can't get figs from a thistle and Jesus said that we would be know by our love for one another.

 

[Luke2427]

I agree, the Bible says that by your fruit they shall know you. It also says that you can't get figs from a thistle and Jesus said that we would be know by our love for one another.

Excellent! We have an accord!

Now. We can KNOW that we are saved via the new nature that God has given us. This goes for Calvinist and Arminian alike.

Here is the crux of the issue:

Can the Arminian (FWB in your case) KNOW that he will be in heaven ONE DAY?

Or must he admit that he does not know that he will believe to the end and therefore does not KNOW that, even though he is saved, he will make it to heaven?

 

[thegospelgeek]

Excellent! We have an accord!

Now. We can KNOW that we are saved via the new nature that God has given us. This goes for Calvinist and Arminian alike.

Here is the crux of the issue:

Can the Arminian (FWB in your case) KNOW that he will be in heaven ONE DAY?

Or must he admit that he does not know that he will believe to the end and therefore does not KNOW that, even though he is saved, he will make it to heaven?

There is a possibility of becoming apostate, so I guess you are correct in that.

Now, explain to me what happens to this person who "knew" he was saved by the presence of the new nature we just spoke about, yet he falls away from God, deep in sin, and denying the very existance of God?

Was he never saved? If not, how did he "know" he was saved at one time when this "new nature" was present?

 

[Luke2427]

There is a possibility of becoming apostate, so I guess you are correct in that.

Now, explain to me what happens to this person who "knew" he was saved by the presence of the new nature we just spoke about, yet he falls away from God, deep in sin, and denying the very existance of God?

Was he never saved? If not, how did he "know" he was saved at one time when this "new nature" was present?

According to the Scriptures there is no such person.

I John 2:19-20 "They went out from us, but they were not of us, for if they had been of us they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out that they might be made manifest that were not all of us. But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things."

John says they would have continued if they had been of us but their going out from us made it clear that they were never of us.

Then John tells them the difference between these apostates and his audience. He says- But you have an anointing from the Holy One. The anointing is the Holy Spirit who gives the new nature. They never had this. They were always wrong about their conversion.

Jesus said, "My sheep know my voice and they follow me and a stranger they will NOT follow."

 

[Winman]

According to the Scriptures there is no such person.

That is not true. There will be people who sincerely believe themselves saved, who also believe they have the new nature.

Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

These people truly believe themselves saved. And they truly believe they have the Holy Spirit. When Jesus says he does not know them, they argue.

They say, "What do you mean? Didn't we call you Lord? Didn't we prophesy in your name? Didn't we cast out devils? Didn't we do many wonderful works in your name?"

These people were convinced by their own behavior that they had the Holy Spirit.

And this is what I have been saying all along. Yes, the true believer does display the new nature, they love the brethren and other such qualities.

But unbelievers often display these very same qualities and are convinced within themselves they are saved.

 

[Winman]

Then John tells them the difference between these apostates and his audience. He says- But you have an anointing from the Holy One. The anointing is the Holy Spirit who gives the new nature. They never had this. They were always wrong about their conversion.

I agree with you, of course only true believers have the new nature. But we are not talking about that, we are talking about assurance. And the fact is, there are many people who are confident and have assurance they are saved who are not. The Pharisee in Luke 18 is a perfect example.

Luke 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

Luke 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

Did this Pharisee have assurance and confidence that he was saved? YES.

Was he? NO.

 

[thegospelgeek]

According to the Scriptures there is no such person.

I John 2:19-20 "They went out from us, but they were not of us, for if they had been of us they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out that they might be made manifest that were not all of us. But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things."

John says they would have continued if they had been of us but their going out from us made it clear that they were never of us.

Then John tells them the difference between these apostates and his audience. He says- But you have an anointing from the Holy One. The anointing is the Holy Spirit who gives the new nature. They never had this. They were always wrong about their conversion.

Jesus said, "My sheep know my voice and they follow me and a stranger they will NOT follow."

If they were wrong then how do you know that you are not?

 

[thegospelgeek]

According to the Scriptures there is no such person.

I John 2:19-20 "They went out from us, but they were not of us, for if they had been of us they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out that they might be made manifest that were not all of us. But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things."

John says they would have continued if they had been of us but their going out from us made it clear that they were never of us.

Then John tells them the difference between these apostates and his audience. He says- But you have an anointing from the Holy One. The anointing is the Holy Spirit who gives the new nature. They never had this. They were always wrong about their conversion.

Jesus said, "My sheep know my voice and they follow me and a stranger they will NOT follow."

You did say that this witness is proof of their conversion. So, if they were not saved then the witness you spoke of can not be proof of their salvation. You must be wrong on one point or the other. Which is it? The witness is incorrect or the saved became lost?

 

[Winman]

If they were wrong then how do you know that you are not?

I predict he will say because he has the new nature. Circular reasoning.