Romans 3:28 - What is Paul Denying?

[Dr. Walter]

You didn't answer my question in regard to God's Design for the Law in regard to the INDIVIDUAL Jew.

I will given an answer that I suspect you will not like:

1. God's covenant with Abraham promised that Israel would be "blessing for the nations";

2. In Romans, Paul is deeply concerned with arguing that God has indeed been faithful to this promise - that God has indeed used Israel to bless the nations;

3. However, as per Romans 3, Paul recognizes that the way Israel will bless the nations cannot be through "showing them how wonderful the Law of Moses is". In Romans 3, he is pretty clear – the Law of Moses cannot be a blessing to the world in this way.

4. To put a finer point on this, Paul sees that the Jew, like the Gentile, is in Adam. So while the Law of Moses is good, it is operating on a Jew who is as fallen as the Gentile.

5. How then can God use the Jew to bless the world and be faithful to his promise?

6. Answer: God uses Law of Moses to make Israel draw the sin of the world onto itself. As per a line of reasoning you get in Romans 5, 7, ,9, and 11, Paul argues, cryptically perhaps, that God is using the Law of Moses as a kind of "sponge" to soak of the sins of the world into the nation of Israel.

7. Why would God do this? Answer: to collect sin together into "one place" (national Israel) so that this sin can then be focussed down into one person - Jesus. And then, sin is condemned on the cross (Romans 8:3)

8. By using Israel as this "sponge for sin", God has indeed been faithful to the Abrahamic promise. Law of Moses has, strangely, been used in this "dark" manner - making Israel more sinful, not less - for the ultimate benefit of us all.

9. Since the purpose of Law of Moses was to "lure sin into Israel" and then into Jesus, the condemnation of sin on the cross brings the task of Law of Moses to a close.

10. Since its task has been completed, the Law of Moses is then retired with honour.


I see no evidence in 1:18-5:2 of the divine intent of the law. I see evidence of that intent in 5,7,9, and 11, but not before.

So, no, Paul does not argue about the true intent of the Law in 1:18-5:2, except to the extent that he says that the Law is "a witness", and is therefore connected to what happens at the Cross.


No. As per my argument above, the Law was given for the benefit of all mankind.

 

[Andre]

You didn't answer my question in regard to God's Design for the Law in regard to the INDIVIDUAL Jew.

God never gave to the Law to an "individual Jew". But my answer is what I wrote in the 10 points at the top of my post - the Law was given to concentrate sin in the Jews who make up the nation Israel. So, yes, the Law was given to make individual Jews more sinful, not less.

The law was added so that the trespass might increase.

All I am doing is taking Paul at his word. He makes the same point in Romans 7. And then in Romans 9, he develops its more fully, characterizing (many) Jews as being hardened unto destruction. And the Law of Moses is the means that God uses to make sin grow in Israel:

The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law

Again, I am simply taking Paul seriously. Here he says that the thing that empowers sin is the law. Now people don't like this - just like they don't like Romans 2:6-7. So they bend and morph and transmute what Paul says into something else.

But, as in Romans 2, Paul means what he says - the Law of Moses empowers sin.

 

[Dr. Walter]

You are trying to straddle a fence that cannot be straddled. You want your cake and eat it to. A NATION does not exist apart from individuals and sin is FIRST an individual problem before it can be a NATIONAL problem.

God's design for the law was to expose sin in the INDIVIDUAL and thus in the NATION of individuals and lead them to faith in Christ. That is the very same purpose for the use of the law for sinners to day - to expose their sin problem and lead them to Christ for the only solution.

Your theory demands that you straddle this fence between the INDIVDIUAL and the NATION but the truth is there is no nation apart from the individual and Romans 7:7-13 provides God's design for giving the law to Moses and it was for the INDIVIDUAL Jew:

7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

God never gave to the Law to an "individual Jew". But my answer is what I wrote in the 10 points at the top of my post - the Law was given to concentrate sin in the Jews who make up the nation Israel. So, yes, the Law was given to make individual Jews more sinful, not less.

The law was added so that the trespass might increase.

All I am doing is taking Paul at his word. He makes the same point in Romans 7. And then in Romans 9, he develops its more fully, characterizing (many) Jews as being hardened unto destruction. And the Law of Moses is the means that God uses to make sin grow in Israel:

The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law

Again, I am simply taking Paul seriously. Here he says that the thing that empowers sin is the law. Now people don't like this - just like they don't like Romans 2:6-7. So they bend and morph and transmute what Paul says into something else.

But, as in Romans 2, Paul means what he says - the Law of Moses empowers sin.

 

[Andre]

You are trying to straddle a fence that cannot be straddled. You want your cake and eat it to. A NATION does not exist apart from individuals and sin is FIRST an individual problem before it can be a NATIONAL problem.

I never suggested otherwise.

Your theory demands that you straddle this fence between the INDIVDIUAL and the NATION but the truth is there is no nation apart from the individual...

I have no idea where you get the impression that I am denying the "individual" dimension. I most certainly am not.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I never suggested otherwise.


I have no idea where you get the impression that I am denying the "individual" dimension. I most certainly am not.

"God never gave to the Law to an 'individual Jew'." - Andre (Post #102)

 

[Andre]

"God never gave to the Law to an 'individual Jew'." - Andre (Post #102)

Indeed. This is a correct statement. And it does not contradict anything else that I have posted.

God did not say to any one Jew - "Here, this law is for you". Instead, the Law was given to the whole nation. And I have never denied that it applies to the individuals who make up that nation.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Indeed. This is a correct statement. And it does not contradict anything else that I have posted.

God did not say to any one Jew - "Here, this law is for you". Instead, the Law was given to the whole nation. And I have never denied that it applies to the individuals who make up that nation.

There can be no NATION application without FIRST individual application as there can be no NATION apart from a collection of individuals. No NATION can administer it, only INDIVIDUALS can administer it. NO NATION can obey it, only INDIVIDUALS can obey it.

Therefore, God's intent for the Mosaic law must be defined INDIVIDUALLY before it can be defiend nationally and the national application can be no more than the individual as the national is simply the collection of individuals.

 

[Andre]

There can be no NATION application without FIRST individual application as there can be no NATION apart from a collection of individuals. No NATION can administer it, only INDIVIDUALS can administer it. NO NATION can obey it, only INDIVIDUALS can obey it.

Why are you telling me this? I have never denied this in any sense.

 

[1Tim115]

Here is a well known chunk of text, often used to argue that people are not justified by good deeds:

Where then is boasting? It is excluded By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.

Despite widespread belief to the contrary, Paul is not denying ultimate justification by good works, something he has actually just affirmed in Romans 2:

God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

What Paul is actually denying in 3:28 is that justification is achieved by doing the works of the Law of Moses. But more specifically, what Paul is really denying is that the Law of Moses is an ethnic delimiter in respect to justification, in a sense that has nothing to do with good works. We need to be careful here to distinguish between two different possible meanings associated with Paul’s denial of justification by works of the Law of Moses:

(1) Paul could, of course, be arguing that although the Law of Moses provides guidance in respect to “good works”, even the Jew who follows its guidance scrupulously will not, in virtue of doing so, attain justification.

(2) Equally, Paul could be arguing, as I believe that he is, that the Law Moses does not function to limit justification to Jews. At first glance, this could seem to be the same argument as (1). Why? Remember that only the Jew has the moral guidance of the Law of Moses. So to deny that justification can be achieved by following that guidance to do good deeds would effectively mean that justification, if it is to achieved at all, might be achieved in a manner that is available to Gentiles. Consequently, position (2) needs to be further nuanced to fully discriminate it from position (1). Position (2) consists in the denial, that merely being a member of the people who “possess” the Law of Moses places one in a privileged position in respect to justification over the Gentile, apart from any consideration of good works at all. This is not an argument about “good works” in any sense. Paul is critiquing ethnic privilege, as marked out by the Law of Moses.

Note that some people take Romans 3:28 as having no specificity at all to the Law of Moses, and that Paul is making a general claim about “good works” not leading to justification. I believe that position is clearly incorrect, but I will not argue the point here. What is more challenging is to choose between options (1) and (2) which, while they both assume that Paul is dealing with the Law of Moses, are still fundamentally different.

First, a point of method. It is obviously improper to approach this text with the assumption that if there is any way possible, no matter how contrived and awkward, to read v. 28 as per option (1), then that is Paul’s meaning. The more objective approach is to consider both possibilities and sees which possibility works better in context.

More later (I have only stated my position thus far, not argued it)

Make sure you read the context of Romans 2 before you use it as support..."thy hardness and impenitent heart" is the key. Paul is contrasting the lost to the saved and verses 5-11 is one sentence. Works don't save you.

Also, how can you read "good" into Romans 3? It's works (period .) and/or the law. Neither can save you.

 

[Andre]

Make sure you read the context of Romans 2 before you use it as support..."thy hardness and impenitent heart" is the key. Paul is contrasting the lost to the saved and verses 5-11 is one sentence. Works don't save you.

No. Paul means what he says in verse 6 and 7, not to mention later verses - ultimate salvation is indeed based on good works. We have been through this before but I will repost the relevant argument:

Romans 2 begins with Paul's critique of the self-righteous impentitent man. Fine. Then comes the warning about the future judgement based on deeds.

That warning does not function as a warning if Paul is writing about an unattainable standard.

Imagine this scenario. A parent scolds a misbehaving child. The parent then warns the child that those children who behave will get a lollipop and those who do not will have to go to bed early (with no lollipop).

How is this possibly a warning if is impossible for the child to achieve a state where one gets a lollipop based on good behaviour? A warning in advance of a "deeds" judgement is only a warning if there is a possibility of changing one's path and achieving the "good side" of the coming judgement. If the child thinks its impossible to get the lollipop, then the warning has no meaning for him - it cannot affect his behaviour.

And yet this is precisely why the child is warned - to change his behaviour.

I have no idea how you take verse 5 to 11 as anything other than a true statement about a coming judgement at which some will get eternal life based on good works. How does "context" cause this statement to be not true?:


God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Also, how can you read "good" into Romans 3? It's works (period .) and/or the law. Neither can save you.

I have explained this in grisly detail throughout this thread. So I have already answered this question. If you wish to challenge me on the actual arguments, I am all ears.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Paul is addressing that crowd of humanity (vv. 1-5; 17-29) who believe they can come before God "according to his deeds" (this is "the law of works") and escape the judgement. This is very very easy to see as the descriptive of those entering into this judgement is ALL NEGATIVE:

And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

This describes the kind of men who come before this judgement thinking they can escape it "according to his deeds".

The verses following verse 1-6 enlarge upon and define what the last phrase in verse 5 says - "the RIGHTEOUS judgement." What makes it a RIGHTEOUS judgement even though the UNRIGHTEOUS plan on coming in and escaping it by their works?????? Here is what makes God's judgement of works righteous:

A. Judgement with FAIR qualifications and consequences:

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.


B. Judgement according to LIGHT given:

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;.......
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

C. Judgement that uses the standard manifest in the gospel

Rom. 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Rom. 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Rom. 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:


D. Judgement According to what they DO not according to what they KNOW

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified........17 ¶ Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.


E. Judgement according to CONSISTENCY between EXTERNAL and INTERNAL

25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

The Righteous STANDARD used in the Day of Judgement is the RIGHTEOUSNESS of Christ declared in the gospel and which measures "good" works by the Person and life of Christ. This same standard is revealed in the law and the prophets as well as the same standard written upon the conscience of men - God's righteousness. This is the standard that self-righteous men both Gentiles and Jews reject and go about trying to establish their own righteousness (Rom. 10:3) but their LESSOR STANDARD revealed "according to his deeds" will not pass this RIGHTEOUS judgement.

No. Paul means what he says in verse 6 and 7, not to mention later verses - ultimate salvation is indeed based on good works. We have been through this before but I will repost the relevant argument:

Romans 2 begins with Paul's critique of the self-righteous impentitent man. Fine. Then comes the warning about the future judgement based on deeds.

That warning does not function as a warning if Paul is writing about an unattainable standard.

Imagine this scenario. A parent scolds a misbehaving child. The parent then warns the child that those children who behave will get a lollipop and those who do not will have to go to bed early (with no lollipop).

How is this possibly a warning if is impossible for the child to achieve a state where one gets a lollipop based on good behaviour? A warning in advance of a "deeds" judgement is only a warning if there is a possibility of changing one's path and achieving the "good side" of the coming judgement. If the child thinks its impossible to get the lollipop, then the warning has no meaning for him - it cannot affect his behaviour.

And yet this is precisely why the child is warned - to change his behaviour.

I have no idea how you take verse 5 to 11 as anything other than a true statement about a coming judgement at which some will get eternal life based on good works. How does "context" cause this statement to be not true?:


God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.


I have explained this in grisly detail throughout this thread. So I have already answered this question. If you wish to challenge me on the actual arguments, I am all ears.

 

[Andre]

Paul is addressing that crowd of humanity (vv. 1-5; 17-29) who believe they can come before God "according to his deeds" (this is "the law of works") and escape the judgement. This is very very easy to see as the descriptive of those entering into this judgement is ALL NEGATIVE:

And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

This describes the kind of men who come before this judgement thinking they can escape it "according to his deeds".

No, you are clearly bringing something to this text that is simply not there.

Yes, Paul is speaking to the impenitent. But, and I cannot emphasize this enough, there is nothing that Paul actually writes here to sustain this idea of yours that Paul is speaking against the possibility of justification by good works.

Yes, Jesus rebukes this man. But the text actually says why this man is being rebuked. It is because he does the very things that he criticizes other people for.

The man is being rebuked for doing bad works, not, repeat not for thinking that good works could save him. And, as a matter of fact, there is no textual evidence at all here that Paul considers this fellow to have done substantial good works at all.

 

[Dr. Walter]

No one is justified before God by the ACT of faith but by the OBJECT of faith and that OBJECT is expressed in prepositional phrases in Romans 3:24-26 and that is what Paul refers to as "the law...of faith" in Romans 3:27.

Rom. 3:"24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus."

That is why the power of God unto salvation is IN THE GOSPEL as the OBJECT of faith rather than in the ACT of faith as the gospel REVEALS the rightousness of God that justifies the sinner (Rom. 1:16-17). The beleiver IN the gospel is imputed the righteousness REVEALED in the gospel and not due to the ACT of faith but due to the OBJECT of faith as justification before God is "IN Jesus" not IN faith. Faith simply serves as the conduit to embrace the OBJECT that justifies the believer.

In Romans 4 it is the PROMISE of God to Abraham that is the OBJECT of faith and this promise is the "seed" that will bless all nations (Gen. 12:3; 15:6; Gal. 3:6-8,14-17). Righteous was imputed to Abraham due to faith in this OBJECT which formed the promise of God to Abraham.

Justification before God is not due to the ACT of faith or faithfulness TO God but faith "IN the blood" of Christ or faith "IN Jesus" as the promised propitiation/satisfaction of God's righteous demands.

This is why justificaiton is "by the law..of faith" and not "by the law of works" or the law of justification which is "according to his deeds" (Rom. 2:6) as only the deeds of Christ can justify anyone before God and that is obtained solely "by the law....of faith" which is always "IN" Christ as the OBJECT or PROVISION for satisfying God's righteous by HIS DEEDS instead of our deeds (the law of works).

Abraham was a SYRIAN by birth and by marriage as was Isaac and Jacob and there were no "children of Israel" until God changed Jacob's name from "Jacob" to Israel." Abraham was a Gentile when he was justified before God through the object of faith (Gen. 12:3; Gal. 3:6-8, 15-17) when he was an "ungodly" idoltrous Syrian in Ur of the Chaldees BEFORE he departed from his father's house, BEFORE he performed any act of faithfulnesss TO God he had been justified by faith IN the promised seed - Christ.

No, you are clearly bringing something to this text that is simply not there.

Yes, Paul is speaking to the impenitent. But, and I cannot emphasize this enough, there is nothing that Paul actually writes here to sustain this idea of yours that Paul is speaking against the possibility of justification by good works.

Yes, Jesus rebukes this man. But the text actually says why this man is being rebuked. It is because he does the very things that he criticizes other people for.

The man is being rebuked for doing bad works, not, repeat not for thinking that good works could save him. And, as a matter of fact, there is no textual evidence at all here that Paul considers this fellow to have done substantial good works at all.

 

[BobRyan]

No. Paul means what he says in verse 6 and 7, not to mention later verses - ultimate salvation is indeed based on good works. We have been through this before but I will repost the relevant argument:

.

If by "ultimate salvation" you mean "it is not the hearers of the law that are just before God but the doers of the Law WILL be justiFIED ... on the day when according to my Gospel God will judge all" Rom 2:13-16.

And if by "ultimate salvation" you mean "it is not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord that will enter the kingdom heaven but it is he who DOES the will of My Father... therefore everyone who HEARS the Word of mine and does them is like a man who built his house upon a rock" Matt 7:21-24

Then you are speaking of justification in the context of "future" judgment and of "ultimate salvation" in the context of a saint that perseveres "firm until the end".

The "you" of Romans 1:7 (of Romans 1:1-17) are all the saved saints in the church of Rome ("Jews and also Greeks" vs 16).

The "they" of Romans 1:18-32 is the "barbarians" of the wicked lost world.

Thus Romans 1 contrasts the saints (1:7) with the lost world.

...

Romans 2:1-4, 17-24 the "you" of Romans 2 is the lost Jew who is a member of the Church of Rome. God says that they cause the "name of God to be blasphemed among the gentiles".

...

Romans 11:13-21 the "you" of Romans 11 is the saved Jew in the church of Rome "who stands only by your faith" and that "you" is being told "to fear for if God did not spare them neither will He spare you". The "them in that case are the Jewish nationals that rejected the gospel about Jesus as the Messiah.

so "context is everything" when studying the book of Romans.

In Romans 1-2 the subject is the sanctified walk of the saved born-again saints (1:7) - who "persevere in doing good" (Rom 2:7) contrasted to the fate of the lost the wicked (whether the wicked be outside the church as in Romans 1 or inside the church as in Romans 2).

In that context "justification" is future (Romans 2:13-16). And is the Matt 7 of looking at a good tree vs a bad tree and seeing what it is (by their fruits you shall know them).

But in Romans 3-5 justification is "past" (Rom 5:1) "Having BEEN justified by faith we HAVE peace with God". That justification is not on the basis of works and happens at the moment the lost are born-again.

Context is everything in the book of Romans.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

If by "ultimate salvation" you mean "it is not the hearers of the law that are just before God but the doers of the Law WILL be justiFIED ... on the day when according to my Gospel God will judge all" Rom 2:13-16.

Hence, the law in Romans 2:13-16 is the law that determines "good" versus "bad" works in Romans 2:7-8 or else you cannot use Romans 2:13-16 to support your application of Romans 2:6-8. Of course, then your whole application to the saints in Romans 2:6-8 is completely rejected by Paul in Romans 3:27-28. So much for your contrived "contextual" theory as it breaks down completely right here as the distinction in Romans 2:6-8 is "according to his deeds" whether they are GOOD or BAD as judged by that law in Romans 2:13-16

Romans 2:1-4, 17-24 the "you" of Romans 2 is the lost Jew who is a member of the Church of Rome. God says that they cause the "name of God to be blasphemed among the gentiles".

This is bogus! Romans 2:1-5 is addressed to ANY and ALL humans who believe they can escape the judgement of God because they perceive themselves BETTER than those listed in Romans 1:18-32 - this includes the pious Jew as well as the pious gentile as the words are "WHOSOEVER THOU ART O MAN" who thinks like this. These words are not limited to any ethnic group.
...

In Romans 1-2 the subject is the sanctified walk of the saved born-again saints (1:7) - who "persevere in doing good" (Rom 2:7) contrasted to the fate of the lost the wicked (whether the wicked be outside the church as in Romans 1 or inside the church as in Romans 2).

What a perversion of the context. Romans 1:1-17 emphasizes Paul's call by God to the gospel ministry for which Paul wanted to preach the gospel to the LOST at Rome in order to add fruit to the churches in Rome (Rom. 16 list several churches). Romans 1:16-17 gives positive reasons for preaching the gospel, the last of which is what the lost world needs "therein is revealed the righteousness of God" but which the lost Gentile world (Rome is in the gentile world) is completely without and therefore under the wrath of God - Romans 1:18-32.

Romans 2:1-5 continues to demonstrate this bankruptcy of righteousness even among those who perceive themselves to be more pious than those described in Romans 1:18-32 and think they can escape the judgement of God because of this self-deception of betterness.

Romans 2:6 sets forth justification by "the law of works" (Rom. 3:27) which is justification "according to his deeds." Romans 2:6-15 sets forth the righteous application of God's judgement to all who come before God to justified "by the law of works" as this is exactly how the lost Jews will approach God on judgement day (Rom. 2:17-24) but God's judgement will not favor some over others due to external differences but will demand consistency between externals and internals (Rom. 2:25-29).

In that context "justification" is future (Romans 2:13-16). And is the Matt 7 of looking at a good tree vs a bad tree and seeing what it is (by their fruits you shall know them).

In that context JUDGEMENT is future upon all such who come before God with the profession "Lord, Lord....have we not done many wonderful works in thy name" and he will respond to ALL who come on this basis of justificaiton by works "depart from me ye WORKERS of iniquity for I NEVER knew you."

But in Romans 3-5 justification is "past" (Rom 5:1) "Having BEEN justified by faith we HAVE peace with God". That justification is not on the basis of works and happens at the moment the lost are born-again.

Romans 3:22-5:2 is justification "by the law of faith" whereas Romans 2:1-29 is justification "by the law of works" and Paul's conclusion to that contrast is:

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Why? Simply because his primary stated point from Romans 1:16-17 is to prove that the righteousness revealed only in the gospel both Gentiles (Rom. 1:18-32) and Jews (Rom. 2:17-3:8) are completely without (Rom. 3:9-18) and therefore "NO FLESH" shall be justified by the law on judgement day (Rom. 3:19-20). Justification comes only "by the law...of faith" (Rom. 3:21-28) and that is the law that demands justification is not by the ACT of faith but rather IN the object of faith (Rom. 3:24-26) without your works but completely dependent upon HIS WORKS as the propitiation of God's Law in behalf of those that believe IN His blood and "IN Jesus."

 

[BobRyan]

Hence, the law in Romans 2:13-16 is the law that determines "good" versus "bad" works in Romans 2:7-8 or else you cannot use Romans 2:13-16 to support your application of Romans 2:6-8. Of course, then your whole application to the saints in Romans 2:6-8 is completely rejected by Paul in Romans 3:27-28.

Not even close.

Romans 2:13-16 references the same law as we find in all of Romans 2 and 3 when it comes to "The Law of God".

It is the same one in Romans 2:7-13. The same one in Romans 6 and Romans 7 and Romans 8.

It is the same one mentioned in Romans 3:19-20 and in Rom 3:31.

The law that condemns the wicked - is the same one "written on the heart" in Jeremiah 31 and in Hebrews 8 under the New Covenant. God's Law does not change.

Heb 8

8 for finding fault with them, he says, "" behold, days are coming, says the Lord, when I will effect a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; for they did not continue in my covenant, and I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 "" for this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the lord: I will put My laws into their minds, and I will write them on their hearts and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
11 "" and they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen, and everyone his brother, saying, "know the Lord,' for all will know Me, from the least to the greatest of them.
12 "" for I will be merciful to their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more.''


in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 2:1-5 is addressed to ANY and ALL humans who believe they can escape the judgement of God because they perceive themselves BETTER than those listed in Romans 1:18-32 -

Again - not even close.

In Romans 1:18-32 Paul is himself condemning the lost world outside the Christian church and even in vs 28-32 argues that they know they are condemned and so also does the Church of Rome know that the lost world is condemned.

But in Romans 2:1-4 and 17-24 Paul writes to "you who call yourself a Jew" INSIDE the church of Rome (the lost Jew in the Christian Church of Rome) that "does the same thing" as those lost wicked people outside the church - people Paul himself has just condemned in 1:18-32.

Paul is clearly describing the Lost Christian Jew in the Church of Rome in Romans 2.

Rom 2
1 Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.
2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things.
3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?


5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,


...
17 ¶ Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

 

[Dr. Walter]

That is right! It is the same law in Romans 3:19-20 and in Romans 3:27 that prohibits your interpretation of Romans 2:6-13 as a success story of some who will be justified "by the law of works" which is the law stated in verse 6.

Not even close.

Romans 2:13-16 references the same law as we find in all of Romans 2 and 3 when it comes to "The Law of God".

It is the same one in Romans 2:7-13. The same one in Romans 6 and Romans 7 and Romans 8.

It is the same one mentioned in Romans 3:19-20 and in Rom 3:31.

The law that condemns the wicked - is the same one "written on the heart" in Jeremiah 31 and in Hebrews 8 under the New Covenant. God's Law does not change.

Heb 8

8 for finding fault with them, he says, "" behold, days are coming, says the Lord, when I will effect a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; for they did not continue in my covenant, and I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 "" for this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the lord: I will put My laws into their minds, and I will write them on their hearts and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
11 "" and they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen, and everyone his brother, saying, "know the Lord,' for all will know Me, from the least to the greatest of them.
12 "" for I will be merciful to their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more.''


in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

That new covenant quote I gave from Hebrews 8 - that you included in your post above - totally negates your point.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
In Romans 1-2 the subject is the sanctified walk of the saved born-again saints (1:7) - who "persevere in doing good" (Rom 2:7) contrasted to the fate of the lost the wicked (whether the wicked be outside the church as in Romans 1 or inside the church as in Romans 2).

Romans 1:1-17 emphasizes Paul's call by God to the gospel ministry for which Paul wanted to preach the gospel to the LOST at Rome in order to add fruit to the churches in Rome (Rom. 16 list several churches). Romans 1:16-17 gives positive reasons for preaching the gospel, "

Skipping over so many details in Romans 1:1-17 is not helping your case.

In Romans 1 Paul clearly identifies the Christian Church at Rome as "saints". The book of Romans begins and ends with the affirmation of the sanctified walk of the saints at Rome -- known to believers far outside of Rome.



5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles
for His name's sake,
6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;
7 to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world.
9 For God, whom I serve in my spirit in the preaching of the gospel of His Son, is my witness as to how unceasingly I make mention of you,
10 always in my prayers making request, if perhaps now at last by the will of God I may succeed in coming to you.
11 For I long to see you so that I may impart some spiritual gift to you, that you may be established;
12 that is, that I may be encouraged together with you while among you, each of us by the other's faith, both yours and mine.
===================================
The saints in Rome are called "saints" in vs 7.
The saints in Rome are the the called of Jesus Christ;
The witness and testimony about the sanctified life of the saints in Rome goes far beyond Rome itself - your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world.

And Paul concludes his letter to the church of Rome in 16:17-20 affirming their sanctified walk in Christ and urging that they hold fast to it.

17 Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them.
18 For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple.
19 For your obedience has become known to all. Therefore I am glad on your behalf; but I want you to be wise in what is good, and simple concerning evil.
20 And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly.
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

The inconvenient details in the book of Rome simply do not support your arbitrarily limiting restrictions on the text.

You may choose to continue to ignore those details - but that simply leaves me the option of pointing out the verses again that directly refute your assertions.

in Christ,

Bob