What does Acts 2:38 really mean ??

[adisciplinedlearner]

The Christians we read about in the New Testament did not see baptism or the Lord's Supper as a waste of time. You have arrived at a faulty conclusion based upon the popular misunderstanding that salvation is by faith ALONE. It is not by faith ALONE.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Your question is a good one and I hope you will give serious consideration to the answers I give.

First, they are both FILTERS to protect the church of Jesus Christ. The Lord's Supper requires individual self-examination (I Cor. 11) as well as institutional self-examination (I Cor. 5) and the practice of individual discipline as well as institutional discipline thus identifying and removing what can leaven the individual life as well as the institutional life. Baptism is the initial filter that requires a proper expression and commitment to Jesus Christ and His church. It is not merely a symbolic expression of the gospel but it is an open vow of committment to walk in newness of life due to that profession. The four Biblical prerquisities of baptism filter out those unfit for church membership.

Second, Baptism is the compendum of New Testament theology. John was called "the Baptist" not because of the action of immersing people as it is not a verb or an adjective but a proper noun that is descriptive of his message, mission and ministry. Baptism is identified in Scripture with every essential of Theology. The doctrine of theology proper - trinune nature of God (Mt. 28:19). The doctrine of soteriology - gospel of Jesus Christ (Rom. 6:4-5), regeneration (Col. 2:11-13; Tit. 3:5) Sanctification (Rom. 6:5). . The doctrine of harmontology (Mt. 3:6-8; Acts 2:38; 1 Pet. 3:21). The doctrine of the ecclesiology (Mt. 28:19-20; Acts 2:41-42; I Cor; 12:13). The doctrine Pneumatology (Mt. 3:11; Acts 1:5; I Cor. 12:13). The doctrine of the eschatology (Rom. 6:5-6; I Cor. 15:29).

Third, baptism is the first step of open public obedience to Christ by the believer in the gospel that identifies him/her PUBLICLY with Jesus Christ and the doctrine and church of Jesus Christ. Baptism identifes the believer with an authorized administrator and the people of God in a practical life of discipleship (Mt. 28:19-20; Acts 2:41-42). It identifies the authorized administrator of baptism by the theological essentials listed above.

Baptism is the summary expression of "the faith" once delivered to the saints and thus the identifying banner of the true churches of Jesus Christ.

Let me ask you a serious question.

Put the current debate aside and seriously answer this question for me.

Why does Jesus command us to do irrelevant things?

I always wondered about this. There is obviously a need for repentance. But baptism? I mean the usual argument is that its a witness. However, sharing the gospel message is more of a witness than baptism. There is no need for it. Its a big waste of time because someone who isn't save just thinks people are nuts for being submerged in water unless they are swimming. There is no real witness there. And it an irrelevant activity. It doesn't affect my salvation and a better way to share the gospel is by living a right life and "always be ready to give an answer for the hope that is within you" Baptism is a waste of time and irrelevant to the gospel message. Its not an effective witness. I might as well wear a Talit. So why did Jesus command us to do it? Why did the Ethiopian Eunuch feel compelled to waste his time? Philip already preached Jesus unto him and he was saved why did he have to be baptized? Also Communion. Its another big waste of time.I remember Jesus Crucifixion every daily devotion I have. No need to eat a cracker with a bunch of crackers (joke btw) and drink grape juice. So what? I give thanks for Jesus sacrifice every dinner I have with my family. Our church often has fellowship lunches and dinners and when we eat with them we always open in prayer and remember God's grace. No need for communion there either. A big waste of time. And who cares about being respectful during it because. 1) it doesn't affect our salvation 2) its not a great witness 3) and it doesn't help me draw closer to God. The bible does that. And so does prayer. But communion? What a waste of time. I'm saved I don't need to ever be baptized or eat one cracker which doesn't even fill me up. Waste of time. Both of these things seem to be very irrelevant to the faith. So why would Jesus command us to do it unless he's a big narcissist in the sky?

 

[DHK]

Let me ask you a serious question.

Put the current debate aside and seriously answer this question for me.

Why does Jesus command us to do irrelevant things?

Let me give an answer to this if I may

I always wondered about this. There is obviously a need for repentance. But baptism? I mean the usual argument is that its a witness. However, sharing the gospel message is more of a witness than baptism. There is no need for it. Its a big waste of time because someone who isn't save just thinks people are nuts for being submerged in water unless they are swimming. There is no real witness there. And it an irrelevant activity. It doesn't affect my salvation and a better way to share the gospel is by living a right life and "always be ready to give an answer for the hope that is within you" Baptism is a waste of time and irrelevant to the gospel message. Its not an effective witness. I might as well wear a Talit. So why did Jesus command us to do it? Why did the Ethiopian Eunuch feel compelled to waste his time? Philip already preached Jesus unto him and he was saved why did he have to be baptized?

1. It is done because it is commanded. (Mat.28:19,20
2. It is done because of its symbolism:
It symbolizes our death to our sinful life and our resurrection to a new life in Christ as stated in Romans 6:3,4. When explained that way, it makes the believer realize that living the Christian life is serious business not just a one-time act--a fire escape from Hell.
3. In our nation we don't realize the importance of it because of our culture. In other nations such as Islamic nations, it is a sentence of death. Conversion of a Muslim to Christianity is such an insult that it brings a death warrant upon the convert, and baptism is that symbol which means one is serious about it. It is an outward act where Muslims are able to see what is being done. Now they know that the person has converted.
4. Inwardly the believer often has second thoughts. I conducted an evangelistic meeting. There were 32 professions of faith. But only 16 of those were willing to be baptized. Why? The others were either not really saved (professions not possessions), or they were not willing to count the cost of living the Christian life.
That is why baptism is important.
5. A fifth reason can easily be added. In almost every Baptist Church (all the ones I have been to) baptism is the door to church membership. It is understood that once you are baptized you are becoming a member of this local church. You are saying that you want to become a member and take on the responsibilities of serving in this church.
There are five good reasons.

Also Communion. Its another big waste of time.I remember Jesus Crucifixion every daily devotion I have. No need to eat a cracker with a bunch of crackers (joke btw) and drink grape juice. So what? I give thanks for Jesus sacrifice every dinner I have with my family. Our church often has fellowship lunches and dinners and when we eat with them we always open in prayer and remember God's grace. No need for communion there either. A big waste of time. And who cares about being respectful during it because. 1) it doesn't affect our salvation 2) its not a great witness 3) and it doesn't help me draw closer to God. The bible does that. And so does prayer. But communion? What a waste of time. I'm saved I don't need to ever be baptized or eat one cracker which doesn't even fill me up. Waste of time. Both of these things seem to be very irrelevant to the faith. So why would Jesus command us to do it unless he's a big narcissist in the sky?

1. This service is again commanded by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.
In fact He said: This do until I come.
2. We are specifically told to remember His sacrifice on the cross--his body that was sacrificed for our sins; His blood that was shed on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins. It alone can wash away our sins.
3. If done properly, this is the most worshipful service that the church has.
4. It is a time of confession of sin: Examine yourself is the command given. Make sure you are worthy to partake of the elements.
5. It is a time of prayer, meditation, and often singing hymn directly related to the death, the blood and the second coming of Christ.
6. Since Christ said: "This do til I come" we are also reminded of His coming, and rejoice in the fact that he is coming again.
I have been at churches where they have set aside the entire service for the Lord's Table. It wasn't just a short space of time tacked on the end of the regular service. The entire morning or evening service was devoted to worship in the Lord's Supper. It is a very worshipful service where the Lord is honored.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Your question is a good one and I hope you will give serious consideration to the answers I give.

Ok. I will think about it as well as give you my first impressions.

First, they are both FILTERS to protect the church of Jesus Christ. The Lord's Supper requires individual self-examination (I Cor. 11) as well as institutional self-examination (I Cor. 5) and the practice of individual discipline as well as institutional discipline thus identifying and removing what can leaven the individual life as well as the institutional life. Baptism is the initial filter that requires a proper expression and commitment to Jesus Christ and His church. It is not merely a symbolic expression of the gospel but it is an open vow of committment to walk in newness of life due to that profession. The four Biblical prerquisities of baptism filter out those unfit for church membership.

It seems you are saying both these commandments of Jesus act as Filters to protect the Church in two senses 1) by causing each individual chrisitan to self examine oneself and as a community. and 2) As a show of commitment. Is this correct? Let me ask you this. When a person is married and puts the ring on his wife's finger is he married spiritually as well as nominally? Or not? If not why God's judgment for breaking the covenant? My first reaction is that there is no spiritual significance to what you are saying. 1) Both these activities are irrelevant as "filters" because its not God filtering out people its people filtering out themselves. Which as you know isn't very effective. I am more likely to examine myself in scripture reading when I can actually compare myself against a standard that God has established rather than eating something or being dunked. James 1:22-24 says

22Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror 24and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like.

So its scripture to act like a filter for self examination not some ordinance. Jesus would have been better to command the reading of Scripture than being baptized or partaking in communion. Niether of these acts has been shown to be more than a waste of my time and a waste of your time. They do nothing for my reflection or reflection in community and they certainly are not required for salvation 2)An open vow of commitment is when I openly tell people I'm born again. I've never been so challenged as when I reveal this about myself. Being dunked in water is no greater a witness then when I tell people I'm born again. Getting dunked is a ritual. And a waste of time except on hot humid days. When I got married there is a spiritual truth at play. If I break my vow then judgment. However, there is no spiritual truth at play with baptism the regeneration has already occured. All I need to do is tell people I'm saved and a born again christian baptism certainly is not more open and vow engendering than that. Again Jesus waste our time with a commandment.

Second, Baptism is the compendum of New Testament theology. John was called "the Baptist" not because of the action of immersing people as it is not a verb or an adjective but a proper noun that is descriptive of his message, mission and ministry. Baptism is identified in Scripture with every essential of Theology. The doctrine of theology proper - trinune nature of God (Mt. 28:19). The doctrine of soteriology - gospel of Jesus Christ (Rom. 6:4-5), regeneration (Col. 2:11-13; Tit. 3:5) Sanctification (Rom. 6:5). . The doctrine of harmontology (Mt. 3:6-8; Acts 2:38; 1 Pet. 3:21). The doctrine of the ecclesiology (Mt. 28:19-20; Acts 2:41-42; I Cor; 12:13). The doctrine Pneumatology (Mt. 3:11; Acts 1:5; I Cor. 12:13). The doctrine of the eschatology (Rom. 6:5-6; I Cor. 15:29).

So are many other things. Why not command us to use them. BTW John the Baptist was called Baptist because he baptised. The epistles used Noah's boat to show salvation, Isreals walking between the waters for the same thing. Why doesn't Jesus command us to sit in a boat to symbolize salvation. Why do we have to get wet? Why do we have to eat bread? Again it seems Jesus is commanding a waste of time and a serious inconvienience.

Third, baptism is the first step of open public obedience to Christ by the believer in the gospel that identifies him/her PUBLICLY with Jesus Christ and the doctrine and church of Jesus Christ. Baptism identifes the believer with an authorized administrator and the people of God in a practical life of discipleship (Mt. 28:19-20; Acts 2:41-42). It identifies the authorized administrator of baptism by the theological essentials listed above.

Living my life rightly is a step of open public obedience and it goes a lot further as a witness than baptism. If we are already regenerate why the special test? Aren't we already elect? And thus we don't need to be tested by God. He knows those who are his. Discipleship requires studing scripture, SUFFERING, and many other disciplines. This seems a marginal thing to do. Again the real issue is regeneration and sanctification. This ritual accomplishes niether thing. Again a waste of time.

Baptism is the summary expression of "the faith" once delivered to the saints and thus the identifying banner of the true churches of Jesus Christ.

I don't see how. The Jew did it before Christians. The hindus and budhist do it. Not a great banner. Seems shallow and a waste of time when the weighter issues of salvation are at hand.
These are my initial thoughts.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Let me give an answer to this if I may

1. It is done because it is commanded. (Mat.28:19,20

In other words "just shut up and do what you are told!" I wonder if you think the law is abstract? I don't however this is how this point reads. Its an abstract command.

2. It is done because of its symbolism:

A cross is symbolism, a dove is symbolism. Who cares? Really doesn't mean anything.

It symbolizes our death to our sinful life and our resurrection to a new life in Christ as stated in Romans 6:3,4. When explained that way, it makes the believer realize that living the Christian life is serious business not just a one-time act--a fire escape from Hell

so does many other things such as a simple act of standing. Doesn't really mean anything. I think preaching the gospel is much more effective than some symbol.

3. In our nation we don't realize the importance of it because of our culture. In other nations such as Islamic nations, it is a sentence of death.

I lived in islamic countries and let me tell you preaching is more likely to bring death than baptism so also possession of a bible. Being murdered for what you preach is a greater witness than baptism.

Conversion of a Muslim to Christianity

Baptism is not a conversion event. Obtaining faith is and faith is by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Note not baptism.

4. Inwardly the believer often has second thoughts. I conducted an evangelistic meeting. There were 32 professions of faith. But only 16 of those were willing to be baptized. Why? The others were either not really saved (professions not possessions), or they were not willing to count the cost of living the Christian life.

Good for them it still doesn't do anything if they want to live sinfully they can. Baptism doesn't do anything.

5. A fifth reason can easily be added. In almost every Baptist Church (all the ones I have been to) baptism is the door to church membership. It is understood that once you are baptized you are becoming a member of this local church. You are saying that you want to become a member and take on the responsibilities of serving in this church.

Signing a statement of faith is a better way a then you know what it is they believe in its entirety. Otherwise getting wet is a poor acknowledgement of Church membership.

1. This service is again commanded by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.
In fact He said: This do until I come

Again Narcissitic
2

. We are specifically told to remember His sacrifice on the cross--his body that was sacrificed for our sins; His blood that was shed on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins. It alone can wash away our sins.

reading scripture is a better way

3. If done properly, this is the most worshipful service that the church has

. WHY IT DOESN'T DO ANYTHING. HOW CAN IT BE MORE OR MOST WORSHIPFUL. ITS DEFINATELY NOT AS INSPIRING AS PRAISE SONGS.

4. It is a time of confession of sin: Examine yourself is the command given. Make sure you are worthy to partake of the elements.

We don't need communion for that James 5 commands us to do it and he didn't mention communion

Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective

5

. It is a time of prayer, meditation, and often singing hymn directly related to the death, the blood and the second coming of Christ.

So are personal devotions, communal prayer at church, etc... we don't need a meal to do that.
6

. Since Christ said: "This do til I come" we are also reminded of His coming, and rejoice in the fact that he is coming again.

Again reading scriptures is far more effective. Face it these ordinances are irrelevant and a waste of time. Jesus is using the least effective method for teaching us anything.

I have been at churches where they have set aside the entire service for the Lord's Table. It wasn't just a short space of time tacked on the end of the regular service. The entire morning or evening service was devoted to worship in the Lord's Supper. It is a very worshipful service where the Lord is honored.

AGAIN WHY IT DOESN'T DO ANYTHING.

 

[DHK]

AGAIN WHY IT DOESN'T DO ANYTHING.

I explained all that it did. And you rejected it. If it simple meditation and worship that you want you could convert to Buddhism.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I explained all that it did. And you rejected it. If it simple meditation and worship that you want you could convert to Buddhism.

So you're equating the practice of the ordinances about as important as buddhistic meditation? Then you agree with me that they mean nothing and are a waste of time?

 

[Dr. Walter]

The Christians we read about in the New Testament did not see baptism or the Lord's Supper as a waste of time. You have arrived at a faulty conclusion based upon the popular misunderstanding that salvation is by faith ALONE. It is not by faith ALONE.

Rom. 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Paul only provides two contrasting options in regard to how a person is justified (v. 28):

1. The law of works
2. The law of faith

Justification by the "law" of works has been defined in Romans 2:6 "according to his deeds." The "law" of faith has been defined in Romans 3:22,24-26 as justification by the OBJECT of faith "faith IN His blood" and "believeth IN Jesus" s the power of salvation is faith IN the gospel wherein the righteousness of God is REVEALED in the Person and work of Jesus Christ as explained in Romans 3:24-26.

Therefore, since there are only two possible options "the law of works" versus "the law of faith" and since Paul eliminates the first and establishes the second:

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

therefore that leaves justification by faith ONLY "without works" or by "the law of works" which states "according to his deeds."

Justification is not by the ACT of faith but by the OBJECT of faith. Faith is not love but works by love. Faith is not works but is associated with works. Faith is not life but embraces the life of Christ. Justification is by faith alone, not the action but the object - which is the propitiation by Jesus Christ.

 

[DHK]

So you're equating the practice of the ordinances about as important as buddhistic meditation? Then you agree with me that they mean nothing and are a waste of time?

No, they have great importance as commanded by our Lord and as explained by the Apostle Paul.
Study those passages out in more detail and find out for yourself the importance of instead of your own rationalization of "Why should I?"
Perhaps a better question to ask is: "Who am I to question God?"

 

[Dr. Walter]

Reading you is like reading a lost man's response to God's Word - no ability to discern between truth and error. To say that examination by the church is self-filtering is absurdly rediculous as it can end in church discipline (I Cor. 5:5, 11-13).

To say that PUBLIC identification with Christ in the first century was nothing is supreme ignorance of the cost associated as a Jew embracing Christianity or later as a Gentile the cost of associating publicly with Christ would cost their very lives under Roman law.

You know, it is a waste of my time to converse with you as you are not interested in truth at all but in simply debating and defending your heresies. I have got better things to do with my time.

Ok. I will think about it as well as give you my first impressions.


It seems you are saying both these commandments of Jesus act as Filters to protect the Church in two senses 1) by causing each individual chrisitan to self examine oneself and as a community. and 2) As a show of commitment. Is this correct? Let me ask you this. When a person is married and puts the ring on his wife's finger is he married spiritually as well as nominally? Or not? If not why God's judgment for breaking the covenant? My first reaction is that there is no spiritual significance to what you are saying. 1) Both these activities are irrelevant as "filters" because its not God filtering out people its people filtering out themselves. Which as you know isn't very effective. I am more likely to examine myself in scripture reading when I can actually compare myself against a standard that God has established rather than eating something or being dunked. James 1:22-24 says So its scripture to act like a filter for self examination not some ordinance. Jesus would have been better to command the reading of Scripture than being baptized or partaking in communion. Niether of these acts has been shown to be more than a waste of my time and a waste of your time. They do nothing for my reflection or reflection in community and they certainly are not required for salvation 2)An open vow of commitment is when I openly tell people I'm born again. I've never been so challenged as when I reveal this about myself. Being dunked in water is no greater a witness then when I tell people I'm born again. Getting dunked is a ritual. And a waste of time except on hot humid days. When I got married there is a spiritual truth at play. If I break my vow then judgment. However, there is no spiritual truth at play with baptism the regeneration has already occured. All I need to do is tell people I'm saved and a born again christian baptism certainly is not more open and vow engendering than that. Again Jesus waste our time with a commandment.


So are many other things. Why not command us to use them. BTW John the Baptist was called Baptist because he baptised. The epistles used Noah's boat to show salvation, Isreals walking between the waters for the same thing. Why doesn't Jesus command us to sit in a boat to symbolize salvation. Why do we have to get wet? Why do we have to eat bread? Again it seems Jesus is commanding a waste of time and a serious inconvienience.


Living my life rightly is a step of open public obedience and it goes a lot further as a witness than baptism. If we are already regenerate why the special test? Aren't we already elect? And thus we don't need to be tested by God. He knows those who are his. Discipleship requires studing scripture, SUFFERING, and many other disciplines. This seems a marginal thing to do. Again the real issue is regeneration and sanctification. This ritual accomplishes niether thing. Again a waste of time.


I don't see how. The Jew did it before Christians. The hindus and budhist do it. Not a great banner. Seems shallow and a waste of time when the weighter issues of salvation are at hand.
These are my initial thoughts.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Reading you is like reading a lost man's response to God's Word - no ability to discern between truth and error. To say that examination by the church is self-filtering is absurdly rediculous as it can end in church discipline (I Cor. 5:5, 11-13).

To say that PUBLIC identification with Christ in the first century was nothing is supreme ignorance of the cost associated as a Jew embracing Christianity or later as a Gentile the cost of associating publicly with Christ would cost their very lives under Roman law.

You know, it is a waste of my time to converse with you as you are not interested in truth at all but in simply debating and defending your heresies. I have got better things to do with my time.

You sound like a man who has lost the debate. Because if your assertion is true baptism and communion is a waste of time. And note the Ethiopian didn't have any witnessess save his own guard. And baptisms were carried out in homes and closed communities not in public open spaces Often in the basins of roman style homes where they collected water from rains. Rarely the community at large would know of these baptisms.

 

[Dr. Walter]

You sound like a man who has lost the debate. Because if your assertion is true baptism and communion is a waste of time. And note the Ethiopian didn't have any witnessess save his own guard.

No, I sound like a man who is sick and tired of dealing with a person who simply wants to wrangle and argue over nonsense. When a person discounts a command given by God as a nonsensical reason to obey (your response to DHK), then, what use is there to continue discussing the issue. I am through arguing with you.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

No, I sound like a man who is sick and tired of dealing with a person who simply wants to wrangle and argue over nonsense. When a person discounts a command given by God as a nonsensical reason to obey, then, what use is there to continue discussing the issue. I am through arguing with you.

Actually, you don't. The fact is that the argument is not nonsense but goes directly to the heart of the matter. If its merely a symbol there is no need perform the ritual. In otherwords apart from the command its a waste of time which makes one wonder why Jesus would insist on it. The fact that Jesus insist on there performance of it shows a greater significance. However, you can't admit to it because your assertion would agree with my proposition of Jesus commanding us to irrelivant practices.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Moses was prohibited from entering the promised land for simply distorting a symbol. He had been instructed to strike the rock previously in order to obtain water for Israel out of the rock. Paul tells us that this "rock" was representative of Christ - a figure. However, the Lord next instructed him when they again wanted water to speak to the rock. Instead, Moses struck it two more times. God gave them water but Moses paid the price of messing up a symbol.

Striking it once, representing Christ dying ONCE for sin in order to give life to His people. Striking it more than once taught the INSUFFICIENCY of Christ's death to deal with all our sins and put him to open shame as an insufficient savior. In keeping with that perverted picture, Moses was forbidden to enter the promised land which was a type of heaven. However, speaking to rock portrayed the sufficiency of Christ's death to meet all our needs.

The value of a symbol is in correctly conveying the truth it is designed to convey. Messing up a symbol distorts the truth it was designed to convey. Baptism is a symbol of high significance as it is designed to portray the truth of the gospel, His death, burial and resurrection and that is why it must be by immersion as no other mode portrays that primary truth by design. Administering to unbeleivers distort it. Administering it as a means to be saved distorts it as it then replaces the gospel truth it is designed to portray.

Hence, a symbol's significance is found in the truth it is designed to convey. Making it a sacrament perverts the very essence of the very gospel truth it is designed to convey because instead of adorning the gospel as the object of saving faith it is made to compete with it on an equal level as a MEANS of grace thus becoming "another gospel."

Actually, you don't. The fact is that the argument is not nonsense but goes directly to the heart of the matter. If its merely a symbol there is no need perform the ritual. In otherwords apart from the command its a waste of time which makes one wonder why Jesus would insist on it. The fact that Jesus insist on there performance of it shows a greater significance. However, you can't admit to it because your assertion would agree with my proposition of Jesus commanding us to irrelivant practices.

 

[DHK]

No, I sound like a man who is sick and tired of dealing with a person who simply wants to wrangle and argue over nonsense. When a person discounts a command given by God as a nonsensical reason to obey (your response to DHK), then, what use is there to continue discussing the issue. I am through arguing with you.

He should join a Brethren Church where they practice "foot washing" and the women are required to wear a "head-covering." :laugh:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I am sorry Dr. Walter. This is the most Catholic sounding post. You take a passage out of the OT and you read into it beyond the text! The text can be and should be taken simply at face value. Moses was commanded to speak to the rock. He disobeyed. This passage has nothing to do with symbolism but obedience, and pride. One of the things I find sceptical about the Catholic Church is the many "senses" in which to take scripture. This sounds like you've taken an Allegorical sense and a Anological sense to the passage.

for simply distorting a symbol

not at all it was more than that.

Striking it once, representing Christ dying ONCE for sin in order to give life to His people.

This is deffinately your reading into the passage. It goes beyond the plain reading of the text.
The clear truth is a symbol of its own is powerless. What gives it power is the truth behind the symbol or the opperation of it. Other than that its just a symbol.

Moses was prohibited from entering the promised land for simply distorting a symbol. He had been instructed to strike the rock previously in order to obtain water for Israel out of the rock. Paul tells us that this "rock" was representative of Christ - a figure. However, the Lord next instructed him when they again wanted water to speak to the rock. Instead, Moses struck it two more times. God gave them water but Moses paid the price of messing up a symbol.

Striking it once, representing Christ dying ONCE for sin in order to give life to His people. Striking it more than once taught the INSUFFICIENCY of Christ's death to deal with all our sins and put him to open shame as an insufficient savior. In keeping with that perverted picture, Moses was forbidden to enter the promised land which was a type of heaven. However, speaking to rock portrayed the sufficiency of Christ's death to meet all our needs.

The value of a symbol is in correctly conveying the truth it is designed to convey. Messing up a symbol distorts the truth it was designed to convey. Baptism is a symbol of high significance as it is designed to portray the truth of the gospel, His death, burial and resurrection and that is why it must be by immersion as no other mode portrays that primary truth by design. Administering to unbeleivers distort it. Administering it as a means to be saved distorts it as it then replaces the gospel truth it is designed to portray.

Hence, a symbol's significance is found in the truth it is designed to convey. Making it a sacrament perverts the very essence of the very gospel truth it is designed to convey because instead of adorning the gospel as the object of saving faith it is made to compete with it on an equal level as a MEANS of grace thus becoming "another gospel."

 

[Thinkingstuff]

He should join a Brethren Church where they practice "foot washing" and the women are required to wear a "head-covering." :laugh:

To be quite honest DHK there are many brethren churches where I live. And I actually like them and the people who attend them. I don't find it insulting to be compared with such.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I am sorry Dr. Walter. This is the most Catholic sounding post. You take a passage out of the OT and you read into it beyond the text! The text can be and should be taken simply at face value. Moses was commanded to speak to the rock. He disobeyed. This passage has nothing to do with symbolism but obedience, and pride. One of the things I find sceptical about the Catholic Church is the many "senses" in which to take scripture. This sounds like you've taken an Allegorical sense and a Anological sense to the passage. not at all it was more than that.This is deffinately your reading into the passage. It goes beyond the plain reading of the text.
The clear truth is a symbol of its own is powerless. What gives it power is the truth behind the symbol or the opperation of it. Other than that its just a symbol.

Have you ever read 1 Cor. 10:1-4 which is the New Testament commentary on that "rock"???? Are you totally without any spiritual discernment???

1 ¶ Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Are you going to be so spiritual naive to suggest that the "rock" they drank from was not symbolic of Christ when the apostle expressly states that it "was Christ"? Are you going to take the pathetic Roman Catholic interpretation of the bread and wine and try apply it to this language "that rock was Christ"???? Are you so spiritually blind you cannot see plainly that this is a metaphorical application as Paul uses the linking verb making a direct metaphorical statement "that Rock WAS Christ"???? The metaphor conveys REPRESENTATION and you can actually put the word "represented" in the place of the linking verb "was" and you would have the sense.

 

[DHK]

To be quite honest DHK there are many brethren churches where I live. And I actually like them and the people who attend them. I don't find it insulting to be compared with such.

Your posts reek of a disdain of symbolism, the very symbolism that the Lord Jesus Christ commanded. You admit he commanded it, and then you question God himself literally saying that what God has commanded us to do is a useless ceremony, a ritual without meaning, something that could be omitted from the Christian life--as if you know better than God.

I do find your attitude to God's commands and God's symbolism to be insulting.

 

[lori4dogs]

To be quite honest DHK there are many brethren churches where I live. And I actually like them and the people who attend them. I don't find it insulting to be compared with such.

Absolutely. There are many fine Brethren churches in my part of the world as well. Wonderful people serving the Lord.