What does Acts 2:38 really mean ??

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

You sound like a man who has lost the debate. Because if your assertion is true baptism and communion is a waste of time. And note the Ethiopian didn't have any witnessess save his own guard. And baptisms were carried out in homes and closed communities not in public open spaces Often in the basins of roman style homes where they collected water from rains. Rarely the community at large would know of these baptisms.

GE:
Quite TRUE!
And not once in the NT is baptism performed by anyone not of the 'accredited' apostolic witnesses to the Gospel of Christ.

I regard it rather audacious a Church removed thousands of years from the Apostolic era to arrogate to itself the RIGHT to baptise with water, which was the prerogative of the Apostles and their IMMEDIATE emissaries.

But I had make peace with the Christianity that regardless go on baptising with water (in or with water, is immaterial).

 

[DHK]

Absolutely. There are many fine Brethren churches in my part of the world as well. Wonderful people serving the Lord.

I don't doubt that at all. And I would tend to agree. That wasn't my point.
My point was simply this. If the symbolism of having the Lord's Supper, and baptism was bothersome to Thinkinstuff, think how much more having two more "ordinances" to adhere to would be? Just the thought of having to wash someone else's feet should really bother him--a useless ordinance which they feel is commanded by the Lord. If he thinks that the Lord's Table and Baptism are meaningless symbolic commands, what what he do with an ordinance like foot washing? That was my point--meant to be taken in sarcasm, and not to cast any aspersion on the Brethren Churches.

 

[Dr. Walter]

The only possible baptism referred to in the Great Commission passage of Matthew 28:19 is water baptism. This commission is by Christ to his church to make disciples until the end of the world!!!

To argue that it is restricted to the apostolic age necessarily limits "go" with the gospel to the apostolic age as well (Mk. 16:15). To argue that it is restricted to the apostolic age necessarily limits "teaching them to observe all things whatsoverer I have commanded" to the apostolic age as well!!!

Baptism in water is the only age long baptism commanded by Christ and Ephesians 4:5 was written well after Pentecost and the house of Corneilus and so the baptism in the Spirit had been historically fulfilled and there remained but "one baptism" until the end of the age and that is the baptism found in the Great Commission.

Water baptism is not an Apostolic privilege restricted to apostolic administration but is the command of Christ in making disciples then as well as now even "until the end of the world."

GE:
Quite TRUE!
And not once in the NT is baptism performed by anyone not of the 'accredited' apostolic witnesses to the Gospel of Christ.

I regard it rather audacious a Church removed thousands of years from the Apostolic era to arrogate to itself the RIGHT to baptise with water, which was the prerogative of the Apostles and their IMMEDIATE emissaries.

But I had make peace with the Christianity that regardless go on baptising with water (in or with water, is immaterial).

 

[DHK]

Water baptism is not an Apostolic privilege restricted to apostolic administration but is the command of Christ in making disciples then as well as now even "until the end of the world."

Agreed. If one does not believe this, or believes otherwise, he would have to contend with all of history: all Protestant denominations since the Reformation, all Christian groups before the reformation, and even the Catholic Church and its branches all throughout history. Is all of history wrong?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The only possible baptism referred to in the Great Commission passage of Matthew 28:19 is water baptism. This commission is by Christ to his church to make disciples until the end of the world!!!

To argue that it is restricted to the apostolic age necessarily limits "go" with the gospel to the apostolic age as well (Mk. 16:15). To argue that it is restricted to the apostolic age necessarily limits "teaching them to observe all things whatsoverer I have commanded" to the apostolic age as well!!!

Baptism in water is the only age long baptism commanded by Christ and Ephesians 4:5 was written well after Pentecost and the house of Corneilus and so the baptism in the Spirit had been historically fulfilled and there remained but "one baptism" until the end of the age and that is the baptism found in the Great Commission.

Water baptism is not an Apostolic privilege restricted to apostolic administration but is the command of Christ in making disciples then as well as now even "until the end of the world."

GE:
Re: Dr Walter, “The only possible baptism referred to in the Great Commission passage of Matthew 28:19 is water baptism.”

First, I don’t see “water baptism” ‘commissioned’ “in the Great Commission passage of Matthew 28:19” at all.

Next. Jesus said in so many words where-in disciples were to be baptized— “IN THE NAME” which presupposes a ‘spiritual’ baptism with INHERENT power to convert and teach— which NO baptism with water has.

GE:
Re: Dr Walter, “This commission is by Christ to his church to make disciples until the end of the world!!!”

This commission is by Christ to his APOSTLES “to make disciples” which would become the Church— ‘until the end of the world’ and so we find ourselves that Church today close enough to the end of the world to be rightly seen as the Church of the end of the world— the very Church the Apostles began …. NOT US. WE, have no authority ‘to make disciples’; we ARE disciples and must remain disciples of the Apostles and Christ.

Christ gave us all – His Church the Apostles AND us – promise HE – not the commission or Apostles – would be with us – His Church – until the end of the world. It is the Promise that is unto the end of the World; not the ‘commission’ or the Apostles. The ‘commission’ was given to the Apostles and therefore was only temporary.

GE:
Re: Dr Walter, “To argue that it is restricted to the apostolic age necessarily limits "go" with the gospel to the apostolic age as well (Mk. 16:15).”

Exactly; that’s why there is no ‘Apostolic commission’ than the one given after the Resurrection and before the Ascension and no other individuals endowed with Apostleship besides those given Apostleship while they were given the Great Commission to “go and make disciples”.

Dr Walter:
“To argue that it is restricted to the apostolic age necessarily limits "teaching them to observe all things whatsoverer I have commanded" to the apostolic age as well!!!”

GE:
Yes! All generations after are to be taught by the Apostles, and are never to teach anything their own teachings! If the Church had but obeyed this guideline we would not have had all the division and confusion and in-fighting which is the only order in the disorder in the Church today.

Dr Walter:
“Baptism in water is the only age long baptism commanded by Christ and Ephesians 4:5 was written well after Pentecost and the house of Corneilus and so the baptism in the Spirit had been historically fulfilled and there remained but "one baptism" until the end of the age and that is the baptism found in the Great Commission.”

First, It seems Dr Walter is saying here Pentecost was the baptism in the Spirit “historically fulfilled”— contradicting his aversion both of baptism with water and baptism until the end.

Ephesians 4:5 says there is one baptism only; so how can there be baptism with water AND baptism with the Holy Spirit? Then Eph4:5 should have said there are two baptisms and not one only.

But Ephesians 4:5-6 is final there is only ONE baptism, because it reads “One Lord, one Faith, one Baptism, One-God-and-Father-of –all”. Is water baptism “baptism 'In the Name' of the ONE-God-the-Father ... and the Son and the Holy Spirit”? Not three names; and therefore not more than one baptism.

If baptism save, then why grace or faith or hope? Have yourselves baptized with water and be saved— you need no more. But is it one Baptism with the Holy Spirit— ‘REBIRTH’, ‘new creation’, it shall be “one baptism" which is the baptism “in the one hope of your calling” 4:4 in the One Name.

Dr Walter, aptly saying, "there remained but "one baptism" until the end of the age and that is the baptism found in the Great Commission. ..."

So, water baptism was the Apostolic privilege restricted to apostolic administration. The command of Christ was to the APOSTLES. He commanded the APOSTLES to make disciples even "until the end of the world", THEN, AS WELL AS NOW.

But I want to go to bed tonight in peace and at peace with God's water-baptising Church. I am only obliged by my own conscience to say what I think.

 

[Revmitchell]

You need very desperately to go and study the great commission in great and specific detail. Somewhere along the way you have missed some key elements.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Agreed. If one does not believe this, or believes otherwise, he would have to contend with all of history: all Protestant denominations since the Reformation, all Christian groups before the reformation, and even the Catholic Church and its branches all throughout history. Is all of history wrong?

GE:
Not true; not "ALL" whatever.... from perhaps a hundred years AFTER the Great Commission was given; but not FROM it to include "all".

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

You need very desperately to go and study the great commission in great and specific detail. Somewhere along the way you have missed some key elements.

GE:
Please replace your quote of me because I have made grave mistakes in it and rectified it but unfortunately you used my faulty placing. Kindly requested.
GE

 

[Dr. Walter]

The "go" of the commission is the command to PREACH THE GOSPEL - look at Mark 16:15!!!!! Carry your logic through consistently. Your conclusion denies that anyone an "go preach the gospel" but apostles and no one can do it after they died if we follow your logic.

Second, would you deny that Jesus was baptized in water (Mt. 3;15-17)??? Would you deny that the "disciples" of Jesus baptized others in water (Jn. 4:1-2; Lk. 7;29-30)????? The Great commission commands them to observe all things whatsoever "I HAVE" commanded and Spirit baptism was NOT ONE OF THOSE THINGS as it was still yet future from giving of the commission (Acts 1:5). Hence, the ONLY baptism that Christ subjected himself to, and the only baptism His disciples had submitted to and administered to others is WATER baptism and therefore it is the ONLY POSSIBLE baptism that had been OBSERVED and therefore the ONLY POSSIBLE baptism he could say "I HAVE COMMANDED."

Third, the Great Commission was not given to just the "apostles" but it was given to his Church. Notice Matthew 28:7-16 gives instructions unto "the women" to tell his "disciples" as well as "the apostles" concerning the meeting in Galilee on the Mountain. Notice specifically that "some doubted" who were there and it was not the apostles because Christ took care of even doubting Thomas IN JERUSALEM before he ever went to Galilee.

Fourth, I never denied that the baptism in the Spirit was predicted BEYOND the giving of the commission to baptize in water but the scripture does pin point it historically as Acts 1:5 says "not many days hence" and Acts 11:15-16 gives the nearest point in time that it occurred outside of the house of Corneilius as "AT the beginning." Ephesians 4:5 was written well after the house of Corneilius and thus there was only "ONE BAPTISM" when Paul began his missionary journeys.

Last, "in the name of" can mean "by the authority of" (Acts 4:7) and throughout the book of Acts water baptism was administered "in the name of" Jesus or "as authorized" by Jesus in Matthew 28:19. Others than the Apostles administered water baptism throughout the book of Acts (Acts 8:35-37).

GE:
Re: Dr Walter, “The only possible baptism referred to in the Great Commission passage of Matthew 28:19 is water baptism.”

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The "go" of the commission is the command to PREACH THE GOSPEL - look at Mark 16:15!!!!! Carry your logic through consistently. Your conclusion denies that anyone an "go preach the gospel" but apostles and no one can do it after they died if we follow your logic. ...............

GE:
"The blood of Able speaks".... today; "the prophets speak of Me".... and today. Etc. They are all dead long after they died.... yet speak and teach, us.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

..........Second, would you deny that Jesus was baptized in water (Mt. 3;15-17)??? Would you deny that the "disciples" of Jesus baptized others in water (Jn. 4:1-2; Lk. 7;29-30)????? ...............

GE:
No; never did.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

........... The Great commission commands them to observe all things whatsoever "I HAVE" commanded and Spirit baptism was NOT ONE OF THOSE THINGS as it was still yet future from giving of the commission (Acts 1:5). ...........

GE:
If ever someone has commanded "Spirit baptism" it was Jesus Christ; and if ever someone today commands "Spirit baptism", it is Jesus Christ.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

................. Spirit baptism was NOT ONE OF THOSE THINGS as it was still yet future from giving of the commission (Acts 1:5). ..............

GE:
.... contradicting yourself it was given before Jesus ascended.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

...........the ONLY baptism that Christ subjected himself to ......is WATER baptism and ........... therefore the ONLY POSSIBLE baptism he could say "I HAVE COMMANDED."
..............

GE:
John the baptist, "I, baptise with water, BUT there standeth One, .... the same is He which baptiseth with the Holy Ghost".

 

[Dr. Walter]

GE:
If ever someone has commanded "Spirit baptism" it was Jesus Christ; and if ever someone today commands "Spirit baptism", it is Jesus Christ.

Find one text in Matthew through John that Jesus ever administered the baptism in the Spirit or OBERVED it or the apostles ever administered it????? You cannot do it because it was still predictive prophecy even after Christ's ascension (Acts 1:5). However, the baptism in Matthew 28:19-20 is among those things Christ had already OBSERVED and thus commanded.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

................. baptism in the Spirit was predicted BEYOND the giving of the commission to baptize in water ........ Ephesians 4:5 was written well after the house of Corneilius and thus there was only "ONE BAPTISM" when Paul began his missionary journeys.............

GE:
And how do you expect of me, if you cannot, to see water-baptism in there?

 

[Dr. Walter]

GE:
.... contradicting yourself it was given before Jesus ascended.

It was not given before Jesus ascended as Acts 1:5 clearly proves. It was only PROPHESIED by Christ to be YET FUTURE - "NOT MANY DAYS HENCE" - it occurred on the Day of Pentecost AFTER Christ ascended.

 

[Dr. Walter]

GE:
John the baptist, "I, baptise with water, BUT there standeth One, .... the same is He which baptiseth with the Holy Ghost".

This is PREDICTIVE prophecy that did not occur until Penteocost AFTER Jesus ascended and Acts 1:5 is absolute proof of this and the words "not many days hence."

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

............"in the name of" can mean "by the authority of" (Acts 4:7) and throughout the book of Acts water baptism was administered "in the name of" Jesus or "as authorized" by Jesus in Matthew 28:19. .............

GE:
I have contended that, so far, all the while! Water baptism was administered "in the name of" Jesus ... "as authorized" by Jesus to the Apostles, by the Apostles. ONLY.

 

[Dr. Walter]

GE:
"The blood of Able speaks".... today; "the prophets speak of Me".... and today. Etc. They are all dead long after they died.... yet speak and teach, us.

"GO" is an action word not a PHILOSOPY! "Preach" is an action word not "LISTEN" or "READ"

You cannot have your cake and eat it too. If baptizing and teaching are apostolic only actions then so is GOING PREACHING THE GOSPEL. However, to take that position leaves us only to READING the gospel as GOING and PREACHING and TEACHING it are apostolic only perogatives according to your logic.

Besides, Matthew 28:7-16 demonstrates this was not given to just the apostles but to all the disciples who were equally charged to be there on that mount in Galilee. The fact that Stephen preached the gospel and he was not an apostle proves that it was not restricted to the apostles. The fact that Philip actually did "GO PREACH THE GOSPEL" and administer WATER BAPTISM to the Eunoch proves both of the first aspects of the commission was not restricted to the apostles.