Lordship salvation vs Easy believism

[Revmitchell]

It's all the same package?

So does that mean the package is Faith + Lordship + (who knows what)?

Your mistake is dividing these issue. There is not good reason for it.

 

[Charles Meadows]

I think one can make a pretty good case the the Christian life as described by Jesus or any of the NT writers is one of complete devotion. The price for our sin is paid by Christ since we could NOT pay it. But attempts to localize salvation to the "one time" decision seem to me to have gone overboard. In 1 Cor Paul admits that it's possible to be saved without" works", but that seems to be part of a hyperbolic diatribe against the worldly Corinthian church.

I think MacArthur is right on. The American church needs a kick in the pants. A lot of folks use "justification by faith" as a license to live a worldly life. But I would be hesitant to be too overly dogmatic here.

 

[gb93433]

I think one can make a pretty good case the the Christian life as described by Jesus or any of the NT writers is one of complete devotion.

Much more than that. When I look at the Sermon on the Mount it is an impossible task in my strength and devotion. It is when I give up and at the bottom that Christ works in me. Until that happens I can be all pious in my mind and devoted to Christ just like Peter thought. It is not until God humbles me that Christ works in me.

But attempts to localize salvation to the "one time" decision seem to me to have gone overboard. In 1 Cor Paul admits that it's possible to be saved without" works", but that seems to be part of a hyperbolic diatribe against the worldly Corinthian church.

Salvation is past, present and future.

I think MacArthur is right on. The American church needs a kick in the pants. A lot of folks use "justification by faith" as a license to live a worldly life.

The church needs to get busy. Things have been happening for over 100 years. Why wait until later. Perhaps MacArthur should lead the way.

 

[webdog]

A lot of folks use "justification by faith" as a license to live a worldly life.

I would counter that if they see it this way, chances are they were never justified.

 

[HankD]

Your mistake is dividing these issue. There is not good reason for it.

First it is not I who am dividing anything, but for the sake of the discussion why not go all the way.

Jesus Christ is more than just Lord He is my God. So, "Lord" comes short since He is both my Lord and my God, but that IMO is not the issue.

The issue is in the presentation of the so-called "Lordship" doctrine.

The approach is wrong because it is guilt based.

Evidenced by the mantra: "If Christ is not Lord of your life He is not Lord at all".

No one is able (or willing) to explain to the proselyte what exactly does it mean to make Christ "Lord of your life" or how to do it apart from a checklist of dos/donts.

One does not expect a new born baby to eat meat, walk, speak, etc.

To force these things on babies even in the physical realm is wrong.

To force meat down the throat of a babe with no teeth will choke them.

Babes are carnal and unstable. As Paul remarks upon His own spiritual childhood:

1 Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.​

Even after 3 years Jesus told the apostles and disciples He had more to say to them but would not because they were not able to bear it.

A pharisaical approach to Christian living is the major problem with what I have seen in at least one "Lordship Salvation" church I have attended early on in my walk with Christ.

Meat is damaging to the soul if the babe is not nurtured and strengthened from the milk of the word.

Babes in Christ are weak, carnal and often sinful - living in their former walk. We are to bear their burdens, gently correct them and strengthen them. Yes, and even rebuke them when necessary.

The sheep of His pasture entrusted to us need careful, loving and nurturing care or we will answer to Him.

The mantra ought to be the Scripture: 1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

HankD

 

[Robert Snow]

I would counter that if they see it this way, chances are they were never justified.

You could be right, but not necessarily. If these people are saved, God will bring them around. He is long-suffering, but He will discipline His children. And, God will not abandon nor forsake them.

 

[webdog]

You could be right, but not necessarily. If these people are saved, God will bring them around. He is long-suffering, but He will discipline His children. And, God will not abandon nor forsake them.

I agree, but from personal experience walking carnally for the better part of 20 years, I never once had that attitude...that since I was justified I could sin all I wanted to. I knew what I was doing quenched the spirit and was convicted I should not live that way...but I hardened my heart anyway. I think the one who lives comfortably carnally falling back on that excuse has not bee justified, or has hardened their heart so deep there is not much hope for a return.

 

[Darrenss1]

Do those verses mean if you sin one little sin you are not saved? In your view?

I just explained it. Every christian sins in some way, whether that be to omit something, or to think something, or to behave a certain way, or in their treatment of others. What makes a person saved is the promise of God to those whom believe and trust in Christ and at that single point in time they are born again, new creations, passed from death to life, sealed/indwelt by the Holy Spirit...etc At the end of the day it all comes down to whether or not God can keep His word and make good on His promises to those that believe. While we christians are still living in this fallen world we will still have the old nature and therefore will be limited by that but that does not mean we will not be striving to please God, find we have a genuine love for God and find we will have a desire to serve the Lord as He leads us, however much we try we cannot be Christlike though we desire to be the best we can for the Lord. The christian life is lived with daily repentence to those that fellowship with the Lord, it is however, not a condition of salvation but a product of and most likely because of the born again new life... :thumbs:

Darren

 

[Tom Butler]

I agree, but from personal experience walking carnally for the better part of 20 years, I never once had that attitude...that since I was justified I could sin all I wanted to. I knew what I was doing quenched the spirit and was convicted I should not live that way...but I hardened my heart anyway. I think the one who lives comfortably carnally falling back on that excuse has not bee justified, or has hardened their heart so deep there is not much hope for a return.

I think you're right, web. In fact, I think the Lord beats up on his children, and that could be a sign you are his child.

On the other side, if you can sin and the Lord doesn't convict you about it, it could mean you are under terrible condemnation.

 

[Darrenss1]

I think you're right, web. In fact, I think the Lord beats up on his children, and that could be a sign you are his child.

On the other side, if you can sin and the Lord doesn't convict you about it, it could mean you are under terrible condemnation.

Anyone claiming to be christian that thinks they can sin all they want, live carnal lives and make no attempt to grow or mature as a christian is a red flag in my book. I can see the classic Arminian objection you can live like the devil and still make heaven your home; the person with that attitude needs to get saved!!

Darren

 

[Jedi Knight]

When a sinner gets truly saved they are turning "consciously" from self centered lifestyle to Christ centered one. 2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new

 

[kyredneck]

.... When I look at the Sermon on the Mount it is an impossible task in my strength and devotion........

FYI, the Sermon on the Mount is nothing short of an exposition of the law given by the Author of the law to the recipients of the law showing the spirituality of the law to those who thought they could keep the law. IMO, we're no more capable of complying to the tenets of the Sermon on the Mount than we are of keeping the law. It IS an impossible task.

 

[Jedi Knight]

FYI, the Sermon on the Mount is nothing short of an exposition of the law given by the Author of the law to the recipients of the law showing the spirituality of the law to those who thought they could keep the law. IMO, we're no more capable of complying to the tenets of the Sermon on the Mount than we are of keeping the law. It IS an impossible task.

I disagree...the sermon on the mount contains principals reiterated by the Lord.....example, "blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth". Where does the Lord quote this from? Psalm 37.

 

[gb93433]

IMO, we're no more capable of complying to the tenets of the Sermon on the Mount than we are of keeping the law. It IS an impossible task.

You are right in that you are unable but Christ makes you able. The Christian life is not about getting rid of sin and focusing on sin management but on Christ as the author and perfecter of faith.

 

[kyredneck]

I disagree...the sermon on the mount contains principals reiterated by the Lord.....example, "blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth". Where does the Lord quote this from? Psalm 37.

I'll rephrase: "...the Sermon on the Mount contains within it an exposition of the law given by the Author of the law to the recipients of the law showing the spirituality of the law to those who thought they could keep the law. IMO, we're no more capable of complying to the tenets of the Sermon on the Mount than we are of keeping the law."

Like that better? Or still wanna disagree?

 

[Winman]

My argument is that no one obeys God at all times. If we sin (and we do) at those times we are not submitting to Jesus as Lord.

I gave the example of David. David was absolutely saved, and yet he knowingly sinned when he took Bathsheba and had Uriah killed in battle. You cannot convince me that David did not know he was sinning at this time. He knew he was doing very wrong and continued in this sin for nearly a year. At this time you could not say Jesus was Lord of his life. But he was saved.

Why would Paul and the other apostles constantly tell us to turn from sin if sin is not a problem for Christians? It wouldn't make a bit of sense.

Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Why would Paul have to speak to Christians this way if they were already 100% surrendered to Jesus's lordship? It wouldn't make sense.

As others have said, when we first trust Christ we are born again, but we are babes. It takes time to learn and grow in the Lord.

If a person must turn 100% from sin to get saved, then no one is saved, because none of us ever fully turns 100% from sin.

I am not making excuse for sin, all I am saying is that all Christians will have a battle with sin while we live in this sinful flesh, and none of us obeys Jesus 100% of the time.

But thank God, when we trust Jesus to forgive our sins, he forgives all our sins, past, present, and future.

 

[HankD]

Psalm 130:3 If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?


​

 

[Winman]

Those who believe in Easy Believeism, and those who believe in Lordship Salvation are looking in opposite directions from each other.

Those who believe in Lordship Salvation are looking inward toward themselves. They judge whether they are saved or not by their faithfulness to Jesus. Am I going to church regularly, am I reading my Bible, and I doing good works? If so, I must be going to heaven.

Those who believe in Easy Believeism are looking at Jesus and his faithfulness. Will he perform his promise and save me if I come to him? Can Jesus lie? If Jesus cannot lie, then I know I am saved because he will never break his promise.

I believe in Easy Believeism, although there is nothing easy about it and very few people seem to be able to do it. I am not depending upon my faithfulness to Jesus, and I am thankful I do not have to depend on that. No, I am depending upon his faithfulness to me, that he will perform the promise he made.

Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Abraham did not look at his own abilities, or the ability of his wife Sarah. No, he believed that what God had promised he was able to perform. And actually, Abraham had a lapse in his faith when he took his wife's maidservant and had a child by her. So, Abraham was not 100% faithful to God, but God was 100% faithful to him and gave Abraham and Sarah a son as he had promised.

And in this story, Abraham believed right away and was able to have a son in his old age. Sarah did not believe at first but doubted and laughed. It was only years later that she did believe, perhaps because she saw God fulfill his promise to Abraham when he fathered a son with her handmaid. Afterward she was able to conceive.

Heb 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

Sarah was not 100% faithful, she laughed and doubted at first. Later she got discouraged and gave her handmaid to Abraham. Afterward she did believe and received strength to conceive. This was because she believed in God's ability and faithfulness, not her own. When she considered her own ability she doubted.

We can never depend upon our faithfulness to Jesus, but we can always depend upon his faithfulness to us.

 

[kyredneck]

Psalm 130:3 If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?


​

Blessed is the man to whom, the Lord will not reckon sin. Ro 4:8

 

[nodak]

Well put, Winman!