Sorry, but I respectfully still disagree.
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Lordship salvation vs Easy believism
- Thread starter Jedi Knight
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Sorry, but I respectfully still disagree.
I hope you are not playing with any fire, there is a lot of straw in that sentence.
I wish BOTH sides would represent the other side accurately. The Lordship person looks at our fruits as evidence of regeneration. We are not depending on these for our salvation. The lordship person is looking at Jesus and his faithfulness and trusting in his promise of salvation. We are looking at our fruits to see evidence of the change God did. Read James sometime and you will see where I'm coming from. Faith without works is dead.
This statement is a contradiction within itself. If you are judging your salvation by your works, then you are depending on your works.
Depending on Jesus to save you is just that, placing your life in his hands and depending upon him entirely to save you. It is not conditioned upon any works we must perform. All the necessary work to save you has already been performed by Jesus himself.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
I do not judge that I am saved because of works I perform, I know I am saved because I trusted my life into Jesus's hands.
This doesn't mean I just do whatever I want (although I could). I try to obey Jesus because it pleases him.
It is like our parents. I loved my parents and tried to please them, not out of fear, but love. There is a difference. If you truly love someone, nobody has to tell you to do things that please them, you do so because you want to do so.
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It's not contradictory and it's biblical. Ever read the book of James? I'm not dependent on my works to receive nor keep salvation. I never said it was conditioned on any works(again, your misrepresentation). No works ever saved me; no works ever keep me saved. Looking at evidence of something isn't depending on it. James says that faith without works is deal. Is James saying that you must have works in order to be saved? No, he is saying that true biblical faith will produce good works.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Law
Hebrews 7:
18The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19(for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.
Hebrews 7:
18The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19(for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.
James is speaking of evidence that men see. Men can only judge by your behavior, but God knows the heart.
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
There are many men in the Bible who were saved, but by outward appearance did not appear so. Lot was never godly, neither was Samson. Most people would have believed Samson lost by his works. But he trusted in Christ and was saved.
Again, I am not making excuse for sin. All I am saying is that Jesus does not require works for us to be saved. In fact, we must realize we cannot save ourselves by our works and come to him, depending upon him and him alone to save us.
And we do not have to promise Jesus we will never sin as a condition to be saved. Anybody who does that is just going to find themselves a liar, because we all sin after we are saved.
No, we come to Jesus diseased with sin like the lepers did. We are in a completely helpless state, we cannot heal ourselves. We come to him just as we are and depend upon him to heal us.
Show me one place in all the scriptures where a person had to promise to quit sinning to be saved. Show where that is ever mentioned as a condition to be saved.
Another fallacy you cannot support with scripture:
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
I think that one thing people are overlooking is that the Holy Spirit convicts a person to bring them to Christ.
When a person hears the Word of God and is convicted by the Holy Spirit, he is truly convinced that sin is a terrible thing. Sin is not something to be loved, it brings death and destruction.
That is the difference between someone who refuses to trust Christ. They love sin, they think it is a good thing, something that makes their life better or more enjoyable. They do not see sin as something evil that is destroying their life.
But a person who hears the Word of God and sincerely listens is convicted by the Holy Spirit that sin is a very terrible thing. They hate sin, and love good. This change in attitude toward sin is wrought in the heart by the Holy Spirit and the Word of God.
It was when I realized that sin was destroying me that I came to Jesus for forgiveness of my sins. I didn't want sin in my life anymore, I hate sin. But I had already sinned and was under it's condemnation. I had to come to Jesus to have all my sins forgiven. But it is not just for sins past, it is for all my sins, past, present, and future.
So, a person who comes to Christ has already had a change wrought in their heart by the Holy Spirit. They no longer love sin but hate it.
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
When a person hears the Word of God and is convicted by the Holy Spirit, he is truly convinced that sin is a terrible thing. Sin is not something to be loved, it brings death and destruction.
That is the difference between someone who refuses to trust Christ. They love sin, they think it is a good thing, something that makes their life better or more enjoyable. They do not see sin as something evil that is destroying their life.
But a person who hears the Word of God and sincerely listens is convicted by the Holy Spirit that sin is a very terrible thing. They hate sin, and love good. This change in attitude toward sin is wrought in the heart by the Holy Spirit and the Word of God.
It was when I realized that sin was destroying me that I came to Jesus for forgiveness of my sins. I didn't want sin in my life anymore, I hate sin. But I had already sinned and was under it's condemnation. I had to come to Jesus to have all my sins forgiven. But it is not just for sins past, it is for all my sins, past, present, and future.
So, a person who comes to Christ has already had a change wrought in their heart by the Holy Spirit. They no longer love sin but hate it.
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
You're able to comply with this summation given by Christ?:
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Mt 5:48
That is the uncompromising demand of the law. As far as I'm concerned, by that standard, I'm can't even get up out of this chair and walk out of the room without sinning.
With Paul I concur:
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members.
24 Wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then I of myself with the mind, indeed, serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Ro 7
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James said show ME your faith without works, and I will show THEE my faith by my works. He is speaking of what men see, not what God sees.
Yes of course, did I ever say that God looks on our works as any evidence? It is the evidence that man sees. When we are regenerated, we have a new nature. A change of action in our lives is evidence of regeneration.
Remember, we are speaking about after salvation, not before. Salvation isn't received nor kepted by works. Works(in an overall sense, not a one time event) should be good.
AMEN!
Never said they did have to promise to never sin again.
Well, if Lordship Salvation is not some sort of commitment or promise to never sin again, then what is it?
You know, when I got saved, not one word was mentioned to me about sins I would commit in the future. No, I was shown from scripture that I already was a sinner and that the wages for my sin was death. When I learned that I sure didn't love sin anymore!
I was taught that Jesus had died for ALL my sins and rose from the dead, and that if I would call upon him to save me, he would. And I sincerely prayed with all my heart for Jesus to forgive me and be my Saviour.
Now, if someone had said that I had to promise to quit sinning from this moment on, I might have made that promise just to get saved, but can't you see then that my salvation would be dependent upon my works? If I have to promise to quit sinning, to turn over a new leaf, then my salvation is conditional upon something I have to perform.
Anybody who promises to make Jesus Lord of their life is going to find themselves to be a liar at times. Oh, you might obey Jesus most of the time, but there are going to be times when you knowingly and willfully sin. Anybody who says different is greatly fooling and deceiving themselves.
Jesus doesn't require us to do any works to get saved, why would he require us to do works to stay saved?
What Jesus requires is that we be honest with ourselves and realize we are filthy sinners justly under the condemnation of death, and believe he is the Son of God who died to pay for our sins and rose from the dead, and simply come to him for salvation, depending only on Him to save us.
You know, when I got saved, not one word was mentioned to me about sins I would commit in the future. No, I was shown from scripture that I already was a sinner and that the wages for my sin was death. When I learned that I sure didn't love sin anymore!
I was taught that Jesus had died for ALL my sins and rose from the dead, and that if I would call upon him to save me, he would. And I sincerely prayed with all my heart for Jesus to forgive me and be my Saviour.
Now, if someone had said that I had to promise to quit sinning from this moment on, I might have made that promise just to get saved, but can't you see then that my salvation would be dependent upon my works? If I have to promise to quit sinning, to turn over a new leaf, then my salvation is conditional upon something I have to perform.
Anybody who promises to make Jesus Lord of their life is going to find themselves to be a liar at times. Oh, you might obey Jesus most of the time, but there are going to be times when you knowingly and willfully sin. Anybody who says different is greatly fooling and deceiving themselves.
Jesus doesn't require us to do any works to get saved, why would he require us to do works to stay saved?
What Jesus requires is that we be honest with ourselves and realize we are filthy sinners justly under the condemnation of death, and believe he is the Son of God who died to pay for our sins and rose from the dead, and simply come to him for salvation, depending only on Him to save us.
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Let me ask you this, where did you get this idea that it was? Has anybody said that? Personally, I don't believe that, though I would say we should repent of our sins. But I don't see that meaning to promise to never sin again. I have just recently started looking into the lordship vs easy debate. I have just given my point of view which on the surface, seems to lean closer to lordship that easy. that's why I asked where you saw this info about promising never to sin. Any Lordship people that say that?
That's true. Jesus died for all our sins.
If we have to stop sinning in order to be saved, none of us would be saved. I don't see Scripture teaching to have to make a promise to not ever sin again as part of Salvation. Wouldn't salvation be started on a lie then?
I see repentance as a change of mind about my sin. This will result in a change of action, not a total change in the sense that I become perfect, but a change for the good in an overall sense.I haven't seen anybody that says that making Jesus Lord of their life means to stop sinning. We all sin.
AH, now you see why I have such a HUGE problem with those that say you can lose your salvation. See, salvation is more than just justification. Glorification is the final part of salvation. If we have to do works in order to keep our salvation, then really works is required for ultimate salvation.
Yes, for salvation, you are correct. What I'm speaking about is evidence of true repentance, regeneration... It's not to receive or keep our salvation, but evidence that there is a change in us. If I say I believe you, but I never act like I believe you, then more than likely, I don't believe really you. In the book of James, he speaks about faith and works. He's not saying that works saves(as some have thought) but that true faith will be evident in our works. If I say I have concern for somebody, but just say it with no action, then I really don't have concern. It's just empty works. Abraham was justified by his faith. His work was evident that he truly believed God.
There is the problem right there. Look up the word repent in your concordance. There is only one time in the whole Bible where a person is told to repent of their sins, and it is said to a man who was already saved, that is Simon in Acts 8. He was a sorcerer who had believed on Jesus. When he saw the Holy Spirit was given by the laying on of hands, he offered money to Peter and the other apostles for this power, to which Peter responded:
Acts 8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.
Verse 22 is the only time in all of scripture where a person is told to repent of sin. Repent means a change of mind, a change of view. When certain people told Jesus about some whom Pilate had killed, and some who were killed when a tower fell on them, Jesus told them they must repent.
Luke 13:1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Many people believe when something bad happens to a person, that this is proof that they were very wicked sinners and that God was punishing them. But Jesus tells them they must repent or turn from this false belief, and realize that they are wicked sinners as well. Just because your life is good, and nothing bad has happened to you does not prove you are right with God.
So, repent means to change your mind, often from something false you believe to the truth. And this is what the repentance in salvation is, to turn from the false belief that you can please God with your own righteousness and earn your way into heaven, to believe that you are a lost helpless sinner and that only Jesus can save you.
This is a false teaching of what repentance means, this idea was primarily introduced into the church by the RCC.
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Well, I can't see how it could be anything but. What is sin but disobeying God? And if you are not obeying God then you are not submitting to him as Lord.
This is what I asked RevMitchell, to what degree do you have to obey God for him to be Lord in your life? 50% of the time, 60% of the time, how much?
No serious and honest person can say 100% of the time, because none of us obeys Jesus 100% of the time.
If making Jesus Lord of your life means 100% of the time, then none of us has ever truly made Jesus Lord of our life.
So, you tell me, to what degree do we have to obey Jesus for him to be Lord of our life?
And you refused to directly answermy question about the 1 John passages. Your trying to set up the false idea that if God is to be Lord then you have to be obedient 100% of the time. This is not even a reasonable suggestion. Maybe you can answer my question directly this time.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
In this passage do you have to be 100% obedient to be a Christian?
Yes, it does seem to say we must be 100% obedient to God to be born of God.
But we all know that these verses are really teaching about continuing in sin, because nobody can say they do not sin.
At least I cannot say that. How about you, do you ever sin?
If so, then you are not 100% obedient to Jesus.
Tell me Revmitchell, do you ever sin?
Again you dodged the context of my question. Do you have to be obedient 100% of the time to be a Christian Yes or no?
I could also ask do you have to be obedient 100% of the time for Christ to be Lord? The point of the question is to illustrate your failed logic on Lordship. The answer of course to both questions is the same.
You do not have to be obedient 100% of the time for Christ to be both Lord and Savior. The answer is no. Which serves to illustrates well that you "logic" on the clearly Biblical teaching that Christ must be both Lord and Savior is not sound.
I thought I did answer you. I said these verses do seem to teach a person must be 100% obedient.
I had to say "seem" because these verses are controversial. I do not read Greek, but many who do say these verses do not actually say a person must be 100% obedient 100% of the time, but rather speak of living in a continued state of sin.
Well, I think you are wrong.
Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
If at any time you ever disobey Jesus, then he is not your Lord according to this verse.
This is what happens when you isolate verses from the whole and create a doctrine. If you take 1 John 3:8-9 and Luke 6:46 and isolate them, you would have to believe that a person must be 100% obedient to Jesus at all times to be born of God.
If that is so, then not one single person on the face of the earth is born again. Not one.
As I wrote earlier, when a person hears the Word of God and is convicted by the Holy Spirit a change is wrought in their hearts. They come to fully realize that sin is evil and is the cause of their destruction. This person is going to have a change in attitude about sin and hate sin. It was when I realized that I was a sinner and the wages of sin is death that I came to Jesus.
I can't take credit for this change, it did not originate from myself, it originated with the working of the Holy Spirit in my heart and mind. If not for God's Word, I would have continued on in sin, thinking my own way was best for me.
It is the working of the Holy Spirit in the heart that turns a man from sin, not the man himself.
I had to say "seem" because these verses are controversial. I do not read Greek, but many who do say these verses do not actually say a person must be 100% obedient 100% of the time, but rather speak of living in a continued state of sin.
Well, I think you are wrong.
Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
If at any time you ever disobey Jesus, then he is not your Lord according to this verse.
This is what happens when you isolate verses from the whole and create a doctrine. If you take 1 John 3:8-9 and Luke 6:46 and isolate them, you would have to believe that a person must be 100% obedient to Jesus at all times to be born of God.
If that is so, then not one single person on the face of the earth is born again. Not one.
As I wrote earlier, when a person hears the Word of God and is convicted by the Holy Spirit a change is wrought in their hearts. They come to fully realize that sin is evil and is the cause of their destruction. This person is going to have a change in attitude about sin and hate sin. It was when I realized that I was a sinner and the wages of sin is death that I came to Jesus.
I can't take credit for this change, it did not originate from myself, it originated with the working of the Holy Spirit in my heart and mind. If not for God's Word, I would have continued on in sin, thinking my own way was best for me.
It is the working of the Holy Spirit in the heart that turns a man from sin, not the man himself.
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