Eternal Security is NEVER wrong.

[Dr. Walter]

John 6:39 cannot mean what you make it to mean, because Judas was given to Christ by the Father, then lost.

I didn't have to INTERPRET it, I just quoted it and it was sufficient to set you back on your heels - should tell you something!

You pervert one scripture by perverting another! In the very same chapter that Jesus says "OF ALL....I shall lose nothing" he also DENIES that Judas was ever a true born again believer in Christ (Jn. 6:64-65, 70). He uses the present tense "IS" when describing Judas LONG BEFORE John 17 to be a "devil." He places Judas in the camp of unbelievers in John 6:64 denying they along with Judas were ever drawn by the Father to him (Jn. 6:65). Jesus quotes prophetic scripture to describe what he previously denied was a true believer (Jn. 6:64) denied that the Father ever drew him (Jn. 6:65) defined as a "demon" to be "the son of perdition" rather than a "son of God."

The typical response to those who pervert the scripture is to attempt to justify their perversions by humanistic reasons such as (1) Christ called him to be an apostle so he must have been saved - however, Paul said such types must be among churches (1 Cor. 11:18). (2) Christ gave him supernatural powers and those in Matthew 7:21-23 whom Christ NEVER knew in salvation also performed the miraculous in His name.

When you pervert one scripture it just leads to perverting other Biblical teaching.

 

[DHK]

Eternal life is found in the Lord Jesus Christ (I Jn. 5:20). It is not a thing, but it is a person. We have eternal life as long as we are in union with Christ. If we sever that union with Him by committing the sin of apostasy, we no longer have eternal life.

Jesus said: I give unto you eternal life and you shall never perish.
Words have meanings. You are not at liberty to change the meanings of words to suit your fancy, your weird theology.
Jesus did not say: I give you myself, but rather, I give you eternal life; just like in John 10:10 he said I give you "abundant life."

Eternal life is a possession; something Christ gave me at the time of my salvation. Either you have it or you don't.

He that hath the Son hath life; he that has not the Son of God has not life."
That statement makes it clear that life (eternal life) is not Christ.
It would not make sense if your statement were true.

 

[adisciplinedlearner]

Jesus Christ and eternal life are so closely bound up in one that one cannot apostasize from Christ and continue to have eternal life.

 

[DHK]

Jesus Christ and eternal life are so closely bound up in one that one cannot apostasize from Christ and continue to have eternal life.

When does eternal life stop being eternal?
Why can't you answer that question?

 

[RAdam]

Here's a few scenarios for you to consider.

Scenario 1

A Christian gets amnesia. The person doesn't remember anything, even things concerning Christ. The person doesn't continue in faith after Christ due to this. The person dies before regaining the lost memories. Where does this person go at death? Hell or heaven?

Scenario 2

A Christian gets altzheimer's. Slowly that person loses their mind and ends up doing things he/she wouldn't normally do. That person, due to this illness, doesn't continue in faith after Christ. The person dies. Hell or heaven?

Scenario 3

A person who followed God and has kin very close to God starts walking by sight instead of by faith. He ends up in a wicked city. While in that city his righteous soul is vexed day by day by the filthy conversation of the wicked. Then one day the city he is living in is destroyed, and he is delivered right before the destruction. The last heard of him was that his daughters got him drunk and committed incest with him. He dies. Hell or heaven?

 

[adisciplinedlearner]

Eternal life never ceases to be eternal (just as Christ never ceases to be eternal), but we cannot have it unless we are in union with Christ. If we are not in union with Him, we do not have eternal life.

 

[DHK]

Eternal life never ceases to be eternal (just as Christ never ceases to be eternal), but we cannot have it unless we are in union with Christ. If we are not in union with Him, we do not have eternal life.

Salvation is unconditional. There are no "IF's. What you have just put forth is heresy. There is no where in the Bible where it teaches "if we are not in union with Him."

This is what you are telling me:
If you have an argument with your wife and do not get things right with her; march out of the door in anger, and then suddenly have a heart attack, you would go to hell because you obviously would not be in union with Christ. You would have died in a "state of being angry with your wife," a state that Christ considers the equivalent of murder.

You have no assurance of your salvation.
Yet I know that if I should die right now I would go straight to heaven.
God's Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am his child.

 

[adisciplinedlearner]

To be in union with Christ means to be "in Him." To be outside of union with Christ means to be "outside of Him."

We can have relative assurance of our salvation, but we cannot have absolute assurance of it in this life. We can have very strong assurance of our salvation, but we cannot be absolutely certain of it in this life.

 

[DHK]

To be in union with Christ means to be "in Him." To be outside of union with Christ means to be "outside of Him."

We can have relative assurance of our salvation, but we cannot have absolute assurance of it in this life. We can have very strong assurance of our salvation, but we cannot be absolutely certain of it in this life.

You poor soul. You really don't know what salvation is, do you.
I have absolute assurance of my salvation.
I am certain of it.
I am eternally secure in the hand of Jesus.
If you are not, and don't think you can, you do not understand what salvation is. Perhaps you should examine yourself to see whether you are in the faith. That is an admonition from Paul. It is good for many to do, so I trust you and others don't jump on a bandwagon and accuse me of questioning your salvation.

 

[Dr. Walter]

To be in union with Christ means to be "in Him." To be outside of union with Christ means to be "outside of Him."

We can have relative assurance of our salvation, but we cannot have absolute assurance of it in this life. We can have very strong assurance of our salvation, but we cannot be absolutely certain of it in this life.

First of all you have a very infantile view of how the terms "in Christ" are used in Scripture. You cannot make the words "in Christ" mean simply what you have said as the context determines the correct interpretation of those terms.

For example we are "chosen IN HIM before the foundation of the world an therefore are in him by PURPOSE but not actually and spiritually at the point of being chosen IN HIM. - Eph. 1:4

For example we are "created "IN CHRIST" (Eph. 2:10) in time and in space that is distinctly different than in Ephesians 1:4.

For example we are positionally "seated IN CHRIST" in heavenly places (Eph. 2:6) which is distinctly different than any of the above.

For example we are to "walk IN HIM" (Col. 2:6) which refers to consciously submitting to the Holy Spirit moment by moment so that our lives are being saved for his glory BUT we do not at all times live "after the Spirit" even though we are at all times "in the Spirit" (Rom. 8:9). This again is distinctly different than any of the rest of the above.

For example we are "IN CHRIST" metaphorically through church membership (I Cor. 12:27) as metaphorical "members individually thereof" which is distinctly different than any of the above.

For example we are "IN CHRIST" symbolically through baptism (Gal. 3:27; Rom. 6:4-5).

The reason you are so confused on your doctrine is because you do not distinguish between things that differ.

 

[adisciplinedlearner]

If you want to question my salvation, that is OK with me. As far as I am concerned, my salvation is between God and me.

You and I know that we are "in Christ" today, but we cannot be absolutely certain that we are going to remain "in Christ" tomorrow. Tomorrow, we might decide to sever our union with Christ by turning away from Him forever. We do not know our own hearts, and other Christians have committed this sin. This is why it is necessary for us to persevere in Christ in order to be finally saved.

Judgment Day is coming. On that day, Christ is going to judge us according to our works. Those of us who have characteristically done good will enter into eternal life, and those of us who have characteristically done evil will enter into eternal damnation (Jn. 5:28-29).

 

[adisciplinedlearner]

Salvation is not unconditional. The New Testament sets forth many conditions for salvation. Among these conditions are repentance, faith, baptism, perseverance, confession, the practice of forgiveness, doing good, doing the will of the Father in Heaven, and so forth.

 

[DHK]

You and I know that we are "in Christ" today, but we cannot be absolutely certain that we are going to remain "in Christ" tomorrow.

I am sealed by the Holy Spirit. I am absolutely certain. I am certain that seal is not going to be broken.

Tomorrow, we might decide to sever our union with Christ by turning away from Him forever.

If that is a possibility with you, I would check with God and with your own heart. I know it is not a possibility with me.

We do not know our own hearts, and other Christians have committed this sin. This is why it is necessary for us to persevere in Christ in order to be finally saved.

God knows my heart, and he is the one that keeps my salvation.
I have entrusted it to him. He has promised to keep it to the very end.
He has also promised to keep me to the very end.

Judgment Day is coming. On that day, Christ is going to judge us according to our works. Those of us who have characteristically done good will enter into eternal life, and those of us who have characteristically done evil will enter into eternal damnation (Jn. 5:28-29).

That is a false theology which is not found in the Bible. It is heresy.
It is a works salvation taught in the RCC.

 

[Dr. Walter]

If you want to question my salvation, that is OK with me. As far as I am concerned, my salvation is between God and me.

You and I know that we are "in Christ" today, but we cannot be absolutely certain that we are going to remain "in Christ" tomorrow. Tomorrow, we might decide to sever our union with Christ by turning away from Him forever. We do not know our own hearts, and other Christians have committed this sin. This is why it is necessary for us to persevere in Christ in order to be finally saved.

Judgment Day is coming. On that day, Christ is going to judge us according to our works. Those of us who have characteristically done good will enter into eternal life, and those of us who have characteristically done evil will enter into eternal damnation (Jn. 5:28-29).

You speak as though you were God! How do you know other true children of God have apostatised from salvation in Christ? Can you read hearts? God can and the Biblical explanation for those who turn against Christ and leave the professed realm of salvation is 1 Jn. 2:19 and it is becuase they were never reallly "of us" for if they had "been of us THEY WOULD NO DOUBT CONTINUED WITH US." There is NO DOUBT about their continuation if they had "been of us."

Now, you define these contextual "antichrists" any way you like but the fact is they claimed to be "of us" but they were never really "of us" for if they had been really "of us" the would "NO DOUBT HAVE CONTINUED WITH US" but they "went out" from us because they were not really "of us."

 

[adisciplinedlearner]

John 5
[28] Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
[29] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

RCC theology or the teaching of our Lord and Master?

 

[billwald]

"In Christ." Please define "in."

–preposition
1.
(used to indicate inclusion within space, a place, or limits): walking in the park.
2.
(used to indicate inclusion within something abstract or immaterial): in politics; in the autumn.
3.
(used to indicate inclusion within or occurrence during a period or limit of time): in ancient times; a task done in ten minutes.
4.
(used to indicate limitation or qualification, as of situation, condition, relation, manner, action, etc.): to speak in a whisper; to be similar in appearance.
5.
(used to indicate means): sketched in ink; spoken in french.
6.
(used to indicate motion or direction from outside to a point within) into: Let's go in the house.
7.
(used to indicate transition from one state to another): to break in half.
8.
(used to indicate object or purpose): speaking in honor of the event.
–adverb
9.
in or into some place, position, state, relation, etc.: Please come in.
10.
on the inside; within.
11.
in one's house or office.
12.
in office or power.
13.
in possession or occupancy.
14.
having the turn to play, as in a game.
15.
Baseball . (of an infielder or outfielder) in a position closer to home plate than usual; short: The third baseman played in, expecting a bunt.
16.
on good terms; in favor: He's in with his boss, but he doubts it will last.
17.
in vogue; in style: He says straw hats will be in this year.
18.
in season: Watermelons will soon be in.
–adjective
19.
located or situated within; inner; internal: the in part of a mechanism.
20.
Informal .
a.
in favor with advanced or sophisticated people; fashionable; stylish: the in place to dine; Her new novel is the in book to read this summer.
b.
comprehensible only to a special or ultrasophisticated group: an in joke.
21.
well-liked; included in a favored group.
22.
inward; incoming; inbound: an in train.
23.
plentiful; available.
24.
being in power, authority, control, etc.: a member of the in party.
25.
playing the last nine holes of an eighteen-hole golf course ( opposed to out): His in score on the second round was 34.
–noun
26.
Usually, ins. persons in office or political power ( distinguished from outs).
27.
a member of the political party in power: The election made him an in.
28.
pull or influence; a social advantage or connection: He's got an in with the senator.
29.
(in tennis, squash, handball, etc.) a return or service that lands within the in-bounds limits of a court or section of a court ( opposed to out).
–verb (used with object) British Dialect .
30.
to enclose.
—Idioms
31.
be in for, to be bound to undergo something, esp. a disagreeable experience: We are in for a long speech.
32.
in for it, Slang . about to suffer chastisement or unpleasant consequences, esp. of one's own actions or omissions: I forgot our anniversary again, and I'll be in for it now. Also, British , for it.
33.
in that, because; inasmuch as: In that you won't have time for supper, let me give you something now.
34.
in with, on friendly terms with; familiar or associating with: They are in with all the important people.

 

[adisciplinedlearner]

I know other true Christians have committed the sin of apostasy because the Bible tells me so, not because I think I am God.

 

[adisciplinedlearner]

I John 2:18-19 refers to the apostasy of certain antichrists. It does not refer to the apostasy of true Christians, and it cannot be applied to the apostasy of true Christians. The apostasy of true Christians is dealt with elsewhere in the New Testament.

 

[Dr. Walter]

John 5
[28] Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
[29] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

RCC theology or the teaching of our Lord and Master?

The preceding context has qualified and clarified that those who have done good are those who will not come into any future judgement but have ALREADY passed from death unto life (Jn. 5:24). However, you make Christ a liar and demand that even those whom He says "shall come into judgement" will come into judgement in regard to life and death verification when Christ has already VERILY, VERILY verified it as something already accomplished.

 

[adisciplinedlearner]

John 5:24 promises that the one who presently hears and believes presently has everlasting life and will not come into condemnation. It does not promise he will not come into judgment, for all human beings are going to come into judgment by Christ. This verse also does not teach that one who has passed from death unto life cannot pass from life unto death.