Poll on Supporting a New Church Plant

It can re-ferment:thumbs:

I actually went to the webite of FRE Wine (which Dr. Bob endorses, claiming it is "unleavened") and, surprise, surprise, look what it says under the FAQs:

FRE Wine is dealcoholized wine "blended with unfermented grape juice"
:tonofbricks:

 

I'm really surprised by it. I didn't think churches could be so dumb.

 

Back to the OP.

We have the responsibility to be good stewards of our finances. If someone disagrees strongly with a practice of the church plant and feels they cannot financially support the church, that is their personal liberty. The church plant has personal liberty to practice communion the way they see fit and trust God to finance their ministry. After all, if it's such a great church, God WILL bless it, right? Perhaps the new church plant should ask people to PRAY for the ministry whether or not they can/will financially give.

I wonder if some of you who think it's "legalism" not to support such a church would have a problem supporting a ministry such as Focus on the Family or ACLJ or another church plant that differs slightly in belief. Let's not be hypocritical--we all have preferences as to where we put our money. There is no sin in trying to be good stewards.

 

Uh, didn't Josephus use gleukos for freshly pressed grape juice when recounting Joseph's conversation with Pharaoh's butler?
Of course, Josephus probably didn't understand the nuances of Greek very well, did he?

 

Do you have a reference for that?

 

I have heard the same thing. Too many preach someone else's sermons to know the difference. There was a time when I could hear the sermon from FBC Dallas on the radio and then hear the same sermon the following week where I went to church.

 

Jewish Antiquities, 2.5.2

 

Acts 2:13 states the apostles were accused of being drunk on gleukos.
I think it's a stretch to say it is "freshly pressed", or at the very least the phrase is relative in comparison to when the old was pressed. Grape juice pressed a month ago would be considered new and more recently pressed than wine that was 6 months old.

 

I think that is utterly ridiculous. There is not a shred of Bible to support such an extreme position. This is the kind of crud that keeps us from taking the world for Christ. Straining at gnats and swallowing camels. teaching for doctrine the traditions of men. But worse- isolating and castigating fellow laborers in Christ's vineyard over things that God has never condemned.

This is another example of the problem of Baptist churches getting away from sola scriputura. If you don't have any Bible then keep your mouth shut! We need a revival of that. We need another reformation.

 

I do hope none of you consider the following to be..., "cheesy"...

The Hell-Bound Train

Tom Gray law down on the barroom floor.
Having drunk so much he could drink no more.

So he fell asleep with a trouble brain
And dreamt he rode on the Hell-Bound Train.

The engine with blood was red and damp,
And brilliantly lit with a brinstone lamp,

For fuel an imp was shoveling bones,
While the furnace rang with a thousand groans.

The boiler was filled with larger beer,
And the Devil himself was the engineer.

The passengers made such a motley crew,
Church members, athiest, Gentile and Jew.

Rich men in broadcloth and beggars in rags,
Handsome young ladies and whithered old hags.

Yellow and black men, red, brown and white,
All chained together! What a terrible sight!

The train dashed on at an awful pace,
And the hot wind scorched their hands and face.

Wilder and wilder the country grew,
And faster and faster the engine flew.

Louder and louder the thunders crashed,
And brighter and brighter the lightning flashed.

Hotter and hotter the air became,
So clothes were burned off each quivering frame.

Now in the distance arose such a yell,
“Ha! Ha!” croaked the Devil to stop the train.

But he capered about and sang in his glee,
And laughed and joked at their agony.

“My faithful friends, you have done my work,
And the Devil can never a pay-day shirk.
You have bullied the weak and robbed the poor,
And the starving brother turned from your door.

You have laid up gold where the canker rusts,
And given free vent to fleshly lusts.

You have justice scorned and corruption sown,
And trampled the laws of nature down.

You have drunk and rioted, murdered and lied,
And mocked at God in your Hell-born pride.

You have paid full fair, so I’ll carry you thru,
For it’s only just, you should get your due.

Why, the laborer always expects his hire,
So I’ll land you safe in the Lake of Fire,

Where your flesh shall roast in flames that roar,
And my imps torment you forever more”.

Then Tom awoke with an agonized cry.
Clothes soaken in sweat and hair standing high.

And he prayed as he never prayed before,
To be saved from druink’s satanic power.

And his vows and prayers were not in vain,
For he never more rode on the Hell-Bound Train.

Author Unknown

There are many people who can handle absolutely no alcohol at all. Not even what is often used in mouthwash. Should one lose his footing and consume real wine during a church service it could cause sever problems.

Offering real wine via church is not a very wise thing to do..., in my opinion.

 

Some churches offer wine and grape juice. It is your choice then.

 

The SBC church I belong to uses grape juice, But I have no problem with wine if that is what is to be used.

The other churches have a right to spend their money where they see fit, but bad mouthing someone or damning the Pastor over a minor doctrinal dispute is flat out ridiculous.

 

Somebody needs to connect me with IFB preachers that believe in using real wine for the Lord's Supper. I know of a city that needs a church and I would love to work with a preacher that is scriptural on the Lord's Supper.

Drop me a line if you know of someone I can contact.

Also, I know of two IFB churches looking for pastors that can not seem to find one that agrees with doing it the way that Christ did.

 

My church is a grape-juice congregation and has been for more than 100 years.

But, I can see the argument for the use of fermented wine. I don't know if my church would support a wine-church, but I would personally.

BTW, I've heard the argument all my life about the danger to alcoholics of one sip of wine. Yet I've never heard it from an alcoholic. I'm not arguing against it, I'm just wondering if there's any real documentation of that view?

 

I don't know what alcoholics go through, but the way that prohibitionists portray alcohol is as a virus. Alcoholism is a disease that you contract by contacting it. I see it from a biblical lens. Alcohol is a drink. If you use it to excess and get drunk, you are sinning.

I am sure that the experience of eating turns some into gluttons. Maybe the marital bed has been a doorway for some into sexual addiction. But the solution is not abstinence from the marital bed or from food. Instead it is the biblical teaching of moderation.

As Augustine stated, "Complete abstinence is easier than perfect moderation."

By treating God's people like 4 year olds, church leaders have created a very immature church. It is easy to rail against alcohol from the pulpit, but the Bible paints a distinction between a drink and a drunk. We should teach people how to use the drink scripturally without becoming a drunk.

As Baptists, we should use the elements that Christ used - wine and matzoh. So, if any know of any IFB preachers who contend for their scriptural use, let me know so I can help a new church plant in my city.

 

I don't have a problem either way and could/would support either preference (or a choice at the serving of the cup) as long as there was internal unanimity.

To me it's a non-issue.

My fraternal Italian grandmother (born in Italy) had a saying "God makes wine, man makes whiskey".

Matthew 15

10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.​

HankD

 

Thanks for that; excellent point.

 

This is one of those things we spend too much time arguing about that we ought not. This is not a reason for non support.