Was Adam Elected to Salvation or Damnation?

[Jedi Knight]

The problem debating men like DW is that they speak out of both sides of their mouth, and deny the truth of their statements regardless of how obvious their contradiction and absurdities might be.

Like you proclaming you can loose your salvation but act snotty and full of pride which is not godly. This is talking out of both side of your mouth.

One of the things the Lord hates is one who sows discord among believers. I dare you to explain why you come here to argue your view point over and over on this board.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Let the reader also know that when so-called ministers of the gospel start preaching that God causes evil to come to pass for some greater good, their thinking is morally sick. To think that a Holy and Just God causes evil?????? What are they thinking?????

God says that some evil men have done has never even entered into His mind! Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Some need to start reading Scripture again and allow Scripture to straighten out their warped philosophical notions.:thumbs:

 

[Dr. Walter]

HP: I have never heard a man say more clearly contradictory things yet refuse to admit to any. First he says he agrees with Steaver, then he says he would prefer to say it differently, and then he says it is OK to say it just like Steaver if one it looking at the greater picture which he sees as approval for ‘the greater good.’

So indeed if it is approval for the greater good God can be certainly seen as the author of all evil, just as Steaver has clearly stated. God caused Adam to sin. What an utter unscriptural, unthinkable, and repulsive absurdity, and to think they pin such wickedness on a Holy and Just God!

The problem debating men like DW is that they speak out of both sides of their mouth, and deny the truth of their statements regardless of how obvious their contradiction and absurdities might be. They always try to have everything both ways for convenience. Of a truth, Calvinism is a maelstrom of confusion and DW is a class act in setting forth that reality.

First, you attribute things to me I never said, and now you can't seem to understand what I said. The contradiction is in your own mind - you have created it and probably created it willfully.

God is the cause of Sin in the sense that He intentionally created beings not only capable of sinning but whom He knew in advance would sin. Therefore God with full knowledge that Lucifer and Adam would sin created them anyway with full capablity to sin. YOU CANNOT DENY THIS if you have anything between your ears that is working.

However, God not only created beings with the capability to sin but created them to be responsible for their choices.

Now, ask yourself why did God go ahead and create beings with that capability and responsibilty that He fully knew in advance would sin and bring chaos into His world?????? This is a question you do not like to consider because it makes your head hurt and if anyone else answers it, that answer gives you fodder to charge them with speaking out of both sides of their mouth and other stupid charges you have made.

The answer is that God PURPOSELY DESIGNED THAT SIN WOULD COME INTO THE WORLD and that is why He went ahead and created such beings knowing fully well they would sin before He created them IN ORDER TVER RULE sin and use it for the ultimate good of His elect and His own glory.

Now, if you do not think that is the proper answer, you tell us why would a holy God intentionally create beings He knew full well in advance would sin but went ahead and created them anyway??????

 

[Dr. Walter]

Here is the problem that the Arminian has with his system that he is unable to answer.

"Why would a holy God with complete omniscience create responsible beings not mere capable of sinning but whom God knew before creating them would without doubt sin but yet intentionally go ahead and create them anyway?"

The only rational and reasonable answer is because God had an eternal purpose that included sin but in such a way that He would restrain, overule and work sin for the ultimate good of His people and for the ultimate glory of His Person.

Psa. 76:10 Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain.

Eph. 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:


Rom. 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Thus God intentionally permitted sin into the world without being the actual cause of sin because sin was part of His eternal purpose.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Let the reader also know that when so-called ministers of the gospel start preaching that God causes evil to come to pass for some greater good, their thinking is morally sick. To think that a Holy and Just God causes evil?????? What are they thinking?????

God says that some evil men have done has never even entered into His mind! Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Some need to start reading Scripture again and allow Scripture to straighten out their warped philosophical notions.:thumbs:

Are you telling me that Jeremiah 21:35 and the words "neither came into my mind" means this act took God by surprise and He did not know in advance they would do such a thing? If that is what you think then you have just denied God's omniscience and foreknowledge.

What he means is that such a thing is not the revealed will of God for them or anyone. It never came into his mind as something He approved. However, it was in his mind as something He knew would occur and that He would not intervene and prevent but would allow.

God is not the responsible cause of sin. He NEVER makes anyone sin. However, He does intentially permit sin to occur. In some instances He chooses to restrain sin. For example, Satan and man's attempts to prevent the birth of the Messiah. He restrains them from that sin. He restrains Satan and evil men from many sins they wish they could do but can't because God refuses to allow them to do so (Psa. 76:10). Nothing happens that God does not either decree by His good pleasure or permit for His ultimate glory.

 

[Dr. Walter]

What are some ways that God controls and restrains sin? God controls providence or circumstances. In controlling circumstances He controls the available options. Even though Demons and wicked men may have evil desires, such desires are restrained from expression by available options or circumstances.

This works for the child of God as well. One professor said, "often when I have the desire to sin, the circumstances are not provided to carry out that sin. At other times, the circumstances are there to carry out the sin but I do not have the desire. Woe, to me if both the circumstances and the desire ever meet."

In the overall purpose of God, sin is like the Colorado river, and God's providence/circumstances are like the walls of the Grand Canyon. The river flows freely but within the boundaries of the Canyon walls. So, God permits sin to run freely but only within the walls of His eternal purpose manifested in providence.

Psa. 76:10 Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain.

Eph. 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Rom. 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Nothing enters into your life that has not been decreed or permitted by God and everything decreed or permitted by God works for your ultimate good and His ultimate glory. Job is a perfect example, where Satan, tragedy, death, sickness, and evil were all permitted by God but orchestrated by God for the ultimate good of Job and the glory of God. This doctrine that I believe and teach brings comfort to the saints and glory to God.

 

[steaver]

So indeed if it is approval for the greater good God can be certainly seen as the author of all evil, just as Steaver has clearly stated. God caused Adam to sin. What an utter unscriptural, unthinkable, and repulsive absurdity, and to think they pin such wickedness on a Holy and Just God!

.

SInce DW posted an answer to this that is in perfect step with what I would say I will just repost his answer....

God is the cause of Sin in the sense that He intentionally created beings not only capable of sinning but whom He knew in advance would sin. Therefore God with full knowledge that Lucifer and Adam would sin created them anyway with full capablity to sin. YOU CANNOT DENY THIS if you have anything between your ears that is working.

However, God not only created beings with the capability to sin but created them to be responsible for their choices.

Now, ask yourself why did God go ahead and create beings with that capability and responsibilty that He fully knew in advance would sin and bring chaos into His world?????? This is a question you do not like to consider because it makes your head hurt and if anyone else answers it, that answer gives you fodder to charge them with speaking out of both sides of their mouth and other stupid charges you have made.

The answer is that God PURPOSELY DESIGNED THAT SIN WOULD COME INTO THE WORLD and that is why He went ahead and created such beings knowing fully well they would sin before He created them IN ORDER TVER RULE sin and use it for the ultimate good of His elect and His own glory.

Now, if you do not think that is the proper answer, you tell us why would a holy God intentionally create beings He knew full well in advance would sin but went ahead and created them anyway??????

We have harmonized these two facts HP;

1) It is God's plan to have sin come into this world.

2) Adam was still responsible for his sin.

Can you give any other explanation as to why God gave Adam a choice knowing full well that Adam would indeed choose sin?

Here is what you have not yet grasped HP; The plan we have (sin and death, grace and mercy) was created and implemented by our PERFECT God.

 

[RAdam]

Noone has ever been elected to damnation.

 

[steaver]

Let the reader also know that when so-called ministers of the gospel start preaching that God causes evil to come to pass for some greater good, their thinking is morally sick. To think that a Holy and Just God causes evil?????? What are they thinking?????

God says that some evil men have done has never even entered into His mind! Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Some need to start reading Scripture again and allow Scripture to straighten out their warped philosophical notions.:thumbs:

Evil (satan and his demons) are in this world and cause much evil. Also sinful men are in this world and cause much evil. The part you have missed in the scriptures is that God Himself also causes evil by using satan and sinful men to fulfill His will and purpose.

That is scripture HP.

Exd 14:4And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I [am] the LORD. And they did so.

 

[DHK]

The problem debating men like DW is that they speak out of both sides of their mouth, and deny the truth of their statements regardless of how obvious their contradiction and absurdities might be. They always try to have everything both ways for convenience. Of a truth, Calvinism is a maelstrom of confusion and DW is a class act in setting forth that reality.

This is a personal attack which ought to be deleted.
Your typical response when you can't refute the position is to attack the person. This is what you have done once again, and once again you have attacked him as being a Calvinist when I don't ever see him admitting to being one. You are a true blue Finneyite, and follow his teachings ever so closely even though he was declared by many to be a heretic. So please keep the name calling to yourself.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: You are a true blue Finneyite, and follow his teachings ever so closely even though he was declared by many to be a heretic. So please keep the name calling to yourself.

HP: Would your comment be akin to the pot calling the kettle black????

Ro 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

 

[Dr. Walter]

HP: Would your comment be akin to the pot calling the kettle black????

Ro 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

1. Do you believe that God prior to creating Adam or Lucifer did not know in creating them they would sin?

2. Do you believe that God intentionally created them anyway in full knowledge that in doing so sin would enter into his creation and work its havoc?

3. Do you believe that God unintentionally did this without any previous design or eternal purpose in regard to sin and its consequences?

 

[quantumfaith]

This is a personal attack which ought to be deleted.
Your typical response when you can't refute the position is to attack the person. This is what you have done once again, and once again you have attacked him as being a Calvinist when I don't ever see him admitting to being one. You are a true blue Finneyite, and follow his teachings ever so closely even though he was declared by many to be a heretic. So please keep the name calling to yourself.

DHK: You are so wrong here. You let so many other things go when stated by your "compatriots". I have seen equal statements of "discontent" of which you made no such claim. All that I ask is that you be consistent in your denunciations.

 

[quantumfaith]

Like you proclaming you can loose your salvation but act snotty and full of pride which is not godly. This is talking out of both side of your mouth.

One of the things the Lord hates is one who sows discord among believers. I dare you to explain why you come here to argue your view point over and over on this board.

JK: Do you really want a board where everyone espouses exactly the same fundamental theological positions. A board without any "real" intellectual, philosophical and spiritual debate. Then it would quickly become just another "attaboy" club. The real issue, should be, for everyone to attempt (myself not excluded) to discuss in a rational and reasoned manner spirited differences and at the very least afford intellectual respect to one another, no matter how wrong we might think someone else may be. "The fact of the matter" is none of us here have a monopoly on absolute truth in any form.

 

[Jedi Knight]

JK: Do you really want a board where everyone espouses exactly the same fundamental theological positions.

Nope. Do you think some should be on here to berate one another instead of debate? Is that ok ? Some have attitudes that would make unbelievers think becoming a christian would make you a swine.

 

[quantumfaith]

Nope. Do you think some should be on here to berate one another instead of debate? Is that ok ? Some have attitudes that would make unbelievers think becoming a christian would make you a swine.

I agree JK, but I see the "berating" coming from both sides of theological isle. It is not a one way street.

BTW: If you answer ("nope") is an honest one, then that speaks volumes to me as to your ability (desire) to have meaningful and respectful dialogue. I would hope that you would rethink that.

 

[Jedi Knight]

BTW: If you answer ("nope") is an honest one, then that speaks volumes to me as to your ability (desire) to have meaningful and respectful dialogue. I would hope that you would rethink that.

And I had hope for your transparency but you slip in comments like this? Please.

 

[quantumfaith]

And I had hope for your transparency but you slip in comments like this? Please.

Good Night, Mercy peace and love in abundance.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JK: Nope. Do you think some should be on here to berate one another instead of debate? Is that ok ? Some have attitudes that would make unbelievers think becoming a christian would make you a swine.

HP: Why don’t you start by setting those straight who malign fellow believers with cults, or accuse the other of heresy etc. You turn a blind eye and a deaf ear to the real personal attacks while going about straining gnats. Go figure.

It is no problem whatsoever to characterize ones beliefs as Arminian, etc., but if you dare characterize ones beliefs as Calvinistic it suddenly becomes a personal attack. When you figure out why, could you report your findings to the list?

You are acting as a whited wall.:thumbs:

 

[Dr. Walter]

HP: Why don’t you start by setting those straight who malign fellow believers with cults, or accuse the other of heresy etc. You turn a blind eye and a deaf ear to the real personal attacks while going about straining gnats. Go figure.

It is no problem whatsoever to characterize ones beliefs as Arminian, etc., but if you dare characterize ones beliefs as Calvinistic it suddenly becomes a personal attack. When you figure out why, could you report your findings to the list?

You are acting as a whited wall.:thumbs:

HP you have admitted that God "allowed" for sin to exist within his creation as a necessary part in creation of free will as there is no free will where there is no possible allowance to choose sin.

You have admitted that God will eventually overrule it and work it for the good of His people and his ultimate glory and gain complete victory over it.

Now, does God do all of this by accident or by purpose? Did God purpose to allow sin and restrain, overrule and gain the ultimate victory over it or was that pure accidental along the way? Did God enter into creation without any plan or purpose to deal with sin?