Was Adam Elected to Salvation or Damnation?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Tom B: I'm aware that this may be the view of the Primitive Baptists (who are not Calvinists, but hyper-Calvinists), but I have never in all my years heard this said of Baptists/Calvinists, nor have I ever met or heard any of them who espouse this view.

I certainly do not believe it.

HP: Tom, I am telling you the truth. I know it to be a fact that such was believed as the truth in one large mainstream Baptist Church with a Christian School in my area. I had discussions with not only the Pastor on the issue but a Bible Instructor (that did not necessarily hold to that view but recognized it was indeed believed and taught) The Pastor I sat under is no longer there but he had direct input into at least one of his successor.

Think about it. If unconditional election occurs concerning salvation before any have done evil or good, it is a done deal from that point forward. Nothong can alter or deter its necessitated outcome period, certainly nothing at all, nothing in th every least man could do after the fact to change it. This is the very heart and soul of OSAS as strange to you as it might sound. It should sound strange, for it is the absurd end of Calvinistic theology sad to say.

 

[RAdam]

I'm aware that this may be the view of the Primitive Baptists (who are not Calvinists, but hyper-Calvinists), but I have never in all my years heard this said of Baptists/Calvinists, nor have I ever met or heard any of them who espouse this view.

I certainly do not believe it.

Allow me as a Primitive Baptist to state that this is a misrepresentation of our views.

First of all, the term hyper-Calvinist is ridiculous. I despise the term and have always thought its use is primarily designed to disparage the group it is hurled at.

Now, PBs do not believe salvation is merely a time whem a person becomes aware of their election of God. This is narrowing salvation down to a ridiculous level, which of course happens a lot. Salvation in the bible is broad. It covers many things. This must be understood.

Now, the bible speaks of us having been saved, of us currently being saved, and it says we shall be saved. It both says salvation is conditional and unconditional. On must be careful to rightly divide this concept.

Salvation includes regeneration. Regeneration is an instantaneous event carried out solely by the Holy Spirit. He comes and borns one again, makes them alive in Christ.

Salvation includes conversion. Conversion is a gradual process which must include the gospel.

Salvation includes discipleship. Here is something conditional on the child of God.

Salvation includes preservation which is carried out solely by God.

I've really boiled salvation down into narrow concepts too much here and have not even scratched the surface. It is a broad term used in a variety of senses in the bible.

Now I take offense to the idea that we are the lucky ones chosen by God. Luck has nothing to do with it. God doesn't deal with luck. He is a God with a purpose. I'm thankful and feel unworthy to be a child of the King. I don't feel lucky, I feel blessed. I realize I didn't deserve anything but eternal hell. I'm thankful that God chose to bestow grace upon me, I who am most unworthy of the least of all the mercies He has been so kind to show me.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Tom B: Dr.Walter got it right. Election is unto salvation.

All elect will eventually be saved, but all elect are not currently saved.

HP: Meaningless semantics. Ficticious distinctions. A mere sophism. A done deal is a done deal. That which will occur by necessity cannot be altered. Think about the language DW uses in conjunction with election. Settled in stone before anyone does evil or good. The actual point of salvation is mute. Necessity is not altered by time, incident, or something called a salvation experience. Chosen apart from ALL CONDITIONS is pure unadulterated necessitated fatalism.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

RAdam: I don't feel lucky, I feel blessed.

HP: Too bad those that end up in hell had absolutely nothing to do with their fate. They were not elected to salvation prior to them doing evil or good, and had absolutely nothing to do with God’s arbitrary choice in electing their damnation. If God did not elect them to salvation, there was only one alternative and that was necessitated damnation.
Isn’t it lucky we were chosen to be so blessed, before any of us ever did evil or good? Sure is unlucky for the damned now isn’t it?

 

[RAdam]

HP: Meaningless semantics. Ficticious distinctions. A mere sophism. A done deal is a done deal. That which will occur by necessity cannot be altered. Think about the language DW uses in conjunction with election. Settled in stone before anyone does evil or good. The actual point of salvation is mute. Necessity is not altered by time, incident, or something called a salvation experience. Chosen apart from ALL CONDITIONS is pure unadulterated necessitated fatalism.

Let's consider how God works. It is obvious by prophecy that God determined all along to save Israel from Egyptian bondage. He told Abraham He would do it, He revealed that to Joseph who told Israel that as well. However, there was a time when Israel was under bondage to Egypt. Even though it was God's purpose to save Israel and nothing could stop God from doing that which He willed to do, yet for a time Israel was under bondage to Egypt. That was the case until actual salvation came.

Now, up until actual salvation came and God fulfilled His purpose, is it semantics to say they were unsaved in that sense? According to you, since God had purposed all along to save them, they must have always been saved, even when under the harsh bondage of Egypt.

 

[RAdam]

HP: Too bad those that end up in hell had absolutely nothing to do with their fate. They were not elected to salvation prior to them doing evil or good, and had absolutely nothing to do with God’s arbitrary choice in electing their damnation. If God did not elect them to salvation, there was only one alternative and that was necessitated damnation.
Isn’t it lucky we were chosen to be so blessed, before any of us ever did evil or good? Sure is unlucky for the damned now isn’t it?

God isn't arbitrary.

Man deserved damnation. The damned deserve what they will get. I deserved it too, but there is a gracious God in heaven.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

RAdam: God isn't arbitrary.

HP: He certainly is if He elects or damns men that all are equally born in sin alike, antecedent to their having done any evil or good. One cannot imagine a more arbitrary manner to act than that.

 

[quantumfaith]

Allow me as a Primitive Baptist to state that this is a misrepresentation of our views.

First of all, the term hyper-Calvinist is ridiculous. I despise the term and have always thought its use is primarily designed to disparage the group it is hurled at.

Now, PBs do not believe salvation is merely a time whem a person becomes aware of their election of God. This is narrowing salvation down to a ridiculous level, which of course happens a lot. Salvation in the bible is broad. It covers many things. This must be understood.

Now, the bible speaks of us having been saved, of us currently being saved, and it says we shall be saved. It both says salvation is conditional and unconditional. On must be careful to rightly divide this concept.

Salvation includes regeneration. Regeneration is an instantaneous event carried out solely by the Holy Spirit. He comes and borns one again, makes them alive in Christ.

Salvation includes conversion. Conversion is a gradual process which must include the gospel.

Salvation includes discipleship. Here is something conditional on the child of God.

Salvation includes preservation which is carried out solely by God.

I've really boiled salvation down into narrow concepts too much here and have not even scratched the surface. It is a broad term used in a variety of senses in the bible.

Now I take offense to the idea that we are the lucky ones chosen by God. Luck has nothing to do with it. God doesn't deal with luck. He is a God with a purpose. I'm thankful and feel unworthy to be a child of the King. I don't feel lucky, I feel blessed. I realize I didn't deserve anything but eternal hell. I'm thankful that God chose to bestow grace upon me, I who am most unworthy of the least of all the mercies He has been so kind to show me.

Well Said RA. As per the "lucky" "thingy", luck is relative to the "side of the equation" it falls on. I do agree, "nothing with God" is induced by luck, I think perhaps it is the view that many "non-reformers" feel obliged to acknowledge from the "strict" interpretation of "unconditional election". However any of divide "election" we should all feel "fortunate" (lucky :smilewinkgrin to be a child of the king and thus recipients of God's grace. If we all reminded ourselves of this more often, we might tend toward a more civil discourse and actually "sharpen" one another in our common faith in Christ.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

RAdam: Let's consider how God works. It is obvious by prophecy that God determined all along to save Israel from Egyptian bondage. He told Abraham He would do it, He revealed that to Joseph who told Israel that as well. However, there was a time when Israel was under bondage to Egypt. Even though it was God's purpose to save Israel and nothing could stop God from doing that which He willed to do, yet for a time Israel was under bondage to Egypt. That was the case until actual salvation came....

HP: You forget one not so minor detail. God did not punish or praise Israel for their deliverance either. God directly holds man accountable for their moral intents, showing clearly man is responsible for them. Israel was not held responsible for the deliverance God prophesied. God did some things apart from conditions, yet salvation has clear set conditions, without which no one can or shall be saved. Take repentance for instance. Lu 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Salvation and the deliverance of Israel from Egyptian bondage are apples and oranges.

 

[Tom Butler]

Allow me as a Primitive Baptist to state that this is a misrepresentation of our views.

For which I apologize. You are entitled to define your own doctrines. I have always understood that PB's hold that the lost may be saved independently of the gospel, but I appreciate your post which fleshes out other aspects of salvation and conversion.

 

[Tom Butler]

HP: Tom, I am telling you the truth. I know it to be a fact that such was believed as the truth in one large mainstream Baptist Church with a Christian School in my area. I had discussions with not only the Pastor on the issue but a Bible Instructor (that did not necessarily hold to that view but recognized it was indeed believed and taught) The Pastor I sat under is no longer there but he had direct input into at least one of his successor.

I am certainly not doubting you. I'm just saying I've never heard a professed Calvinist express such a view.

Think about it. If unconditional election occurs concerning salvation before any have done evil or good, it is a done deal from that point forward. Nothong can alter or deter its necessitated outcome period, certainly nothing at all, nothing in th every least man could do after the fact to change it. This is the very heart and soul of OSAS as strange to you as it might sound. It should sound strange, for it is the absurd end of Calvinistic theology sad to say.

I still maintain that election is not salvation, but unto salvation. And the doctrine comprehends all the means God has ordained to accomplish the salvation of the elect. That includes the preaching of the gospel, the hearing of the gospel, repentance and faith on the part of the lost sinner.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Tom Butler: I still maintain that election is not salvation, but unto salvation. And the doctrine comprehends all the means God has ordained to accomplish the salvation of the elect. That includes the preaching of the gospel, the hearing of the gospel, repentance and faith on the part of the lost sinner.

HP: In the same manner a rock kicked off a cliff eventually must hit the ground to stop, all elect must hear the gospel, repent, etc, to be saved if salvation has no conditions. If the end is predetermined from the start and no possibility exists of contrary choice, it is fatalistic determination. Tom, there is simply no way around that conclusion. I believe the Scriptures present a far different scenario than determinism when it comes to the gospel. Look at the choices in the case of the seed and the sower. Did necessity drive each one to its distinctive end? I certainly do not believe so. There were other factors involved not in kind to necessity like the cares of this world etc had an affect upon them, setting forth contrary choice in their respective ends.

Why the warnings in Scripture to walk holy and circumspect lest ye fall? Why should we ‘take heed’ if in fact the end is predetermined and no contrary choice exists? Why would Jesus rebuke and council those He met if their ends were all predetermined? If determination rules, morality is a chimera and obedience serves no final purpose. Love has no meaning. All is determined without contrary choice.

It simply is not true Tom.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I am certainly not doubting you. I'm just saying I've never heard a professed Calvinist express such a view.



I still maintain that election is not salvation, but unto salvation. And the doctrine comprehends all the means God has ordained to accomplish the salvation of the elect. That includes the preaching of the gospel, the hearing of the gospel, repentance and faith on the part of the lost sinner.

You are exactly correct. Those who fight the Biblical doctrine of election attempt to make it non-personal "fatalistic determination" rather than the personal Divine determination to save a portion of fallen God hating humanity in spite of themselves and what what they deserve.

Those who fight against the Biblical doctrine of election distort it by claiming election is salvation and then make their arguments based upon that perverted assumption. They distort it by asserting that God either coerces the elect to be saved or denies salvation to the non-elect giving them no choice. They distort it by claiming that it makes God unjust or respecter of persons when both charges are manifestly false.

I used to be right where they are, using the same arguments and nobody could convince me otherwise! Nobody but God. I was reading the book of John in order to get ammunition against unconditional election and The Holy Spirit used it to break my resistance down - the truth just jumped out from the very pages of Scripture that I was seeking to find ammunition against that doctrine.

HP cannot see it and will never see it unless God opens his eyes and arguing with him is vain. I can understand because I frustrated professors and friends who tried to teach me the truth of election and would have continued to do so but for God. Now HP will deride my personal testimony as a product of demonic influence rather than the Holy Spirit but read these texts carefully:

Gal. 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace,
16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

1. When it pleased who?
2. New birth is likened directly to physical birth - did you have anything to do with separating yourself from your mother's womb? Anything at all?
3. Salvation is a REVELATION of Christ NOT TO ME but IN ME.

Jn. 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

1. The Father gave him power over HOW MANY? "all flesh"
2. The Father determined he should give eternal life to HOW MANY? "to as many as thou hast given him"

When did the Father chose and give these to the Son?

Eph. 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

1. When did the Father chose US? - "before the foundation of the world"
2. Where did the Father chose US? - "in him"
3. Why did the Father chose US? - "that we SHOULD BE holy

2 Thes. 2:13 ¶ But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

1. Why does Paul give thanks to God?
2. When did God choose them?
3. What were they chosen TO - "TO salvation"
4. How was salvation obtained? "through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth"

Hence, the time, the people, the purpose and the means of salvation were ordained by God.

 

[steaver]

I used to be right where they are, using the same arguments and nobody could convince me otherwise! Nobody but God. I was reading the book of John in order to get ammunition against unconditional election and The Holy Spirit used it to break my resistance down - the truth just jumped out from the very pages of Scripture that I was seeking to find ammunition against that doctrine.


.

"Broke your resistence down" ......DW?

All of God's children are given the same Holy Spirit to guide them into truth. All may not have the written scriptures, but all here on this board do.

Do you know how many people use the "God opened my eyes" line? It doesn't work that way my friend. Joseph Smith and Ellen White always come to mind when I here someone claim revelation from God on any particular doctrine.

Let's just stick to exegsis and "study to show thyself approved".

 

[quantumfaith]

"Broke your resistence down" ......DW?

All of God's children are given the same Holy Spirit to guide them into truth. All may not have the written scriptures, but all here on this board do.

Do you know how many people use the "God opened my eyes" line? It doesn't work that way my friend. Joseph Smith and Ellen White always come to mind when I here someone claim revelation from God on any particular doctrine.

Let's just stick to exegsis and "study to show thyself approved".

:thumbs: Very well and honestly stated. Kudos!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver, you should have been with me the Sunday God opened my eyes to the error of Calvinism. It was a life changing event. :thumbs:

 

[Dr. Walter]

"Broke your resistence down" ......DW?

All of God's children are given the same Holy Spirit to guide them into truth. All may not have the written scriptures, but all here on this board do.

Do you know how many people use the "God opened my eyes" line? It doesn't work that way my friend. Joseph Smith and Ellen White always come to mind when I here someone claim revelation from God on any particular doctrine.

Let's just stick to exegsis and "study to show thyself approved".

I did not present my personal experience as proof of anything. If you don't have personal experience in salvation you are not saved. If you don't have personal experience in growth you are not growing. If you don't have personal experience with the truth then it is merely theoretical. Truth and experience go hand and hand but truth is always the final determiner.

 

[steaver]

I did not present my personal experience as proof of anything. If you don't have personal experience in salvation you are not saved. If you don't have personal experience in growth you are not growing. If you don't have personal experience with the truth then it is merely theoretical. Truth and experience go hand and hand but truth is always the final determiner.

With personal salvation this is true for the scripture declares that Spirit testifies with spirit that we are the children of God (Ro 8)

With personal growth this is true for the scripture declares that we have a growing relationship with Jesus Christ unto maturity and holiness.

With sound doctrine we are told to study to show ourselves approved. We are told to search the scriptures.

Personally, I have had times in the past when I felt certain that God gave me a passage of scripture that solidified my beliefs on a doctrine and I used it many times until one time another brother in Christ pointed out that the passage I was using I was using beyond the context that it was given. Rather than digging in my heals and brushing him off I checked out his cliams and dug a bit deeper into it. He was right and I had to confess my error and I NEVER used that passage again even though it did sound so good for my arguments.

I have an older brother who "resisted" the doctrine of Mellinial Exclusion for years. The pastor of his church was preaching ME but my brother told me that he just didn't see what his pastor was seeing in the scriptures until one day he was studying the subject once again and he said it was like a "light going off" in his head. HIs pastor was pleased and said that this is how it happened to him as well, a "light just goes off and you can see the "truth" of the matter".

This is very dangerous because if one believes that God HImself has personally proven a controversal doctrine held by the body of Christ there is absolutely nothing that can cause them to consider ever again that what they have embraced is actually correct. We should be ALWAYS testing the scriptures and refining our understandings of God's written word.

If we believe and hold to a "God personally showed me" attitude when it comes to doctrines other than personal salvation and growth in CHrist we have in effect sealed our own fate if what we hold to is in fact a flawed doctrine. There is no way out of it, like my brother on ME. I have tried many times to show him the error in ME, but how can he consider my argument if he believes God already showed him it is truth? He can't, until and unless he abandons the theory that God gives personal revelation on non-salvitic doctrines.

We are all on the same playing field who hold the full councel of God's word. We are told to study. We all must hold our pov in humility that the possibility may always exist that we have missed something important to the argument.

I believe in OSAS, but not because God personally revealed it to me. It is by the study of HIs word. Others will say the do not believe in OSAS and it is also through the study of God's word. In the end, God will judge our works.

 

[Dr. Walter]

With personal salvation this is true for the scripture declares that Spirit testifies with spirit that we are the children of God (Ro 8)

With personal growth this is true for the scripture declares that we have a growing relationship with Jesus Christ unto maturity and holiness.

With sound doctrine we are told to study to show ourselves approved. We are told to search the scriptures.

Personally, I have had times in the past when I felt certain that God gave me a passage of scripture that solidified my beliefs on a doctrine and I used it many times until one time another brother in Christ pointed out that the passage I was using I was using beyond the context that it was given. Rather than digging in my heals and brushing him off I checked out his cliams and dug a bit deeper into it. He was right and I had to confess my error and I NEVER used that passage again even though it did sound so good for my arguments.

I have an older brother who "resisted" the doctrine of Mellinial Exclusion for years. The pastor of his church was preaching ME but my brother told me that he just didn't see what his pastor was seeing in the scriptures until one day he was studying the subject once again and he said it was like a "light going off" in his head. HIs pastor was pleased and said that this is how it happened to him as well, a "light just goes off and you can see the "truth" of the matter".

This is very dangerous because if one believes that God HImself has personally proven a controversal doctrine held by the body of Christ there is absolutely nothing that can cause them to consider ever again that what they have embraced is actually correct. We should be ALWAYS testing the scriptures and refining our understandings of God's written word.

If we believe and hold to a "God personally showed me" attitude when it comes to doctrines other than personal salvation and growth in CHrist we have in effect sealed our own fate if what we hold to is in fact a flawed doctrine. There is no way out of it, like my brother on ME. I have tried many times to show him the error in ME, but how can he consider my argument if he believes God already showed him it is truth? He can't, until and unless he abandons the theory that God gives personal revelation on non-salvitic doctrines.

We are all on the same playing field who hold the full councel of God's word. We are told to study. We all must hold our pov in humility that the possibility may always exist that we have missed something important to the argument.

I believe in OSAS, but not because God personally revealed it to me. It is by the study of HIs word. Others will say the do not believe in OSAS and it is also through the study of God's word. In the end, God will judge our works.

When you study God's Word, the Holy Spirit confirms the truth to your mind and heart as well (1 Jn. 2:29). Although anyone can be deceived by their feelings and experiences, that does not mean that feelings and experiences are evil. We can rejoice in the truth. Indeed, nothing thrills my soul more than when God opens up a text of scripture to me that I have long struggled with to understand.

 

[steaver]

Indeed, nothing thrills my soul more than when God opens up a text of scripture to me that I have long struggled with to understand.

And my brother caught up in Mellinial Exclusion would say the same thing.

Do you see my point?

We must be careful when declaring a doctrine as "God revealed this to me".

Have you experienced BobRyan on this board yet? He is a SDA and he defends Ellen White's declarations of Divine revelation because he believes that her revelations are not "new scripture" but merely confirm what has already been written.

Once upon a time I would have told you that God had revealed to me that the King James Bible is the only bible endorsed by God. I truly felt that God showed this to me through much study on the subject.

Just be careful when you decide to bring up the "God personally told me so" in a Christian debate setting on certain topics of debate. It doesn't go over well.

You know, there are some very sincere CHristians who would say that God revealed to them that your view of election is wrong. What does that leave us with?

We have the scriptures and we have the Holy Spirit to teach us. But we all have a little problem called imperfection still tainting our walk with Christ.