Was Adam Elected to Salvation or Damnation?

[Jedi Knight]

HP: Why don’t you start by setting those straight who malign fellow believers with cults, or accuse the other of heresy etc. You turn a blind eye and a deaf ear to the real personal attacks while going about straining gnats. Go figure.

It is no problem whatsoever to characterize ones beliefs as Arminian, etc., but if you dare characterize ones beliefs as Calvinistic it suddenly becomes a personal attack. When you figure out why, could you report your findings to the list?

You are acting as a whited wall.:thumbs:

White wall is what you use alot around here and you like to give a thumbs up after childish proud comments. You cannot give an answer why you come here to argue "not debate" with other believers because you "in your world" believe pride and arrogant are not sins that cut you off. Ironic at best!.

 

[Amy.G]

First, you attribute things to me I never said, and now you can't seem to understand what I said. The contradiction is in your own mind - you have created it and probably created it willfully.

God is the cause of Sin in the sense that He intentionally created beings not only capable of sinning but whom He knew in advance would sin. Therefore God with full knowledge that Lucifer and Adam would sin created them anyway with full capablity to sin. YOU CANNOT DENY THIS if you have anything between your ears that is working.

However, God not only created beings with the capability to sin but created them to be responsible for their choices.

Now, ask yourself why did God go ahead and create beings with that capability and responsibilty that He fully knew in advance would sin and bring chaos into His world?????? This is a question you do not like to consider because it makes your head hurt and if anyone else answers it, that answer gives you fodder to charge them with speaking out of both sides of their mouth and other stupid charges you have made.

The answer is that God PURPOSELY DESIGNED THAT SIN WOULD COME INTO THE WORLD and that is why He went ahead and created such beings knowing fully well they would sin before He created them IN ORDER TVER RULE sin and use it for the ultimate good of His elect and His own glory.

Now, if you do not think that is the proper answer, you tell us why would a holy God intentionally create beings He knew full well in advance would sin but went ahead and created them anyway??????

I agree 100%. I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer nor can I speak for God, but how else could He have His most precious creation love Him unless He gave them the choice to hate Him? Love is voluntary. It is not forced or coerced.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Paul says that "there is none that understandeth" and "there is none that seeketh after God."

There can be no true seeking after God until first God gives understanding.

However, the unregenerate state is described as a state impervious to understanding:

Eph. 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

1 Cor. 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

2 Cor. 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.


In contrast regeneration is the reversal of this internal darkened, blinded, ignorant state. Regeneration is a CREATIVE ACT BY GOD where Jesus Christ is revealed by God in the heart:

2 Cor. 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Mt. 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.


Gal. 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace,
16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Jn. 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


However, this revelation of God that comes with a new heart and spirit that is capable of understanding God is not found in the unregenerate but it most be GIVEN to them by God.

Deut. 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

"Deut. 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

Jer. 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Ezek. 36:26 [B]A new heart [/B]also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


Salvation is not in walking an isle, saying a prayer, making a decision for Christ - it is the revelation of Christ in you that changes you into a new creature:

Gal. 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Eph. 2:10 For we are his workmanship CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS unto good works.....

 

[quantumfaith]

Paul says that "there is none that understandeth" and "there is none that seeketh after God."

There can be no true seeking after God until first God gives understanding.

However, the unregenerate state is described as a state impervious to understanding:

Eph. 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

1 Cor. 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

2 Cor. 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.


In contrast regeneration is the reversal of this internal darkened, blinded, ignorant state. Regeneration is a CREATIVE ACT BY GOD where Jesus Christ is revealed by God in the heart:

2 Cor. 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Mt. 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.


Gal. 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace,
16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Jn. 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


However, this revelation of God that comes with a new heart and spirit that is capable of understanding God is not found in the unregenerate but it most be GIVEN to them by God.

Deut. 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

"Deut. 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

Jer. 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Ezek. 36:26 [B]A new heart [/B]also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


Salvation is not in walking an isle, saying a prayer, making a decision for Christ - it is the revelation of Christ in you that changes you into a new creature:

Gal. 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Eph. 2:10 For we are his workmanship CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS unto good works.....

DW, I am not certain to whom (what) you are referencing here, as per a previous post. If it is simply a statment, that is all well and good and nothing wrong at all, but....if is a thinly veiled attempt to communicate "I know God and you don't." then, and only then, it is completely out of line.

 

[Dr. Walter]

DW, I am not certain to whom (what) you are referencing here, as per a previous post. If it is simply a statment, that is all well and good and nothing wrong at all, but....if is a thinly veiled attempt to communicate "I know God and you don't." then, and only then, it is completely out of line.

It is just a statement pertaining to no previous post or any poster. I was studying a concept and one thing led to the other and so I just posted it with no particular person in view or any particular post in view.

 

[quantumfaith]

It is just a statement pertaining to no previous post or any poster. I was studying a concept and one thing led to the other and so I just posted it with no particular person in view or any particular post in view.

Thank You I will take that completely at face value. Mercy, peace and love in abundance.

 

[steaver]

Paul says that "there is none that understandeth" and "there is none that seeketh after God."

There can be no true seeking after God until first God gives understanding.

However, the unregenerate state is described as a state impervious to understanding:

Eph. 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

1 Cor. 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

2 Cor. 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.


In contrast regeneration is the reversal of this internal darkened, blinded, ignorant state. Regeneration is a CREATIVE ACT BY GOD where Jesus Christ is revealed by God in the heart:

2 Cor. 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Mt. 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.


Gal. 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace,
16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Jn. 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


However, this revelation of God that comes with a new heart and spirit that is capable of understanding God is not found in the unregenerate but it most be GIVEN to them by God.

Deut. 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

"Deut. 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

Jer. 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Ezek. 36:26 [B]A new heart [/B]also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


Salvation is not in walking an isle, saying a prayer, making a decision for Christ - it is the revelation of Christ in you that changes you into a new creature:

Gal. 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Eph. 2:10 For we are his workmanship CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS unto good works.....

This is where I part ways with Calvin. I actually agree with all of your post expect one little twist....

"Regeneration is a CREATIVE ACT BY GOD where Jesus Christ is revealed by God in the heart:"

I believe that Jesus Christ is revealed by God in the spirit of man apart from regeneration. The Father draws, the Holy Spirit convicts. Regeneration does not take place until man chooses to accept God's draw and the Spirit's truth of the matter.

Paul says that "there is none that understandeth" and "there is none that seeketh after God."

There can be no true seeking after God until first God gives understanding.

However, the unregenerate state is described as a state impervious to understanding:

This is true, but the scripture does not support that regeneration must take place before one can call upon Jesus. That is just a theory of Calvinism. The Spirit convicts and the Father draws ALL men apart from regeneration. Regeneration is the act of God which is performed on man when man accepts God's attonement.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: I believe that Jesus Christ is revealed by God in the spirit of man apart from regeneration. The Father draws, the Holy Spirit convicts. Regeneration does not take place until man chooses to accept God's draw and the Spirit's truth of the matter.

HP: If unconditional election is true, in reality salvation for the select few has been accomplished from before man ever does evil or good. Why would you see the need to place regeneration subsequent to accepting Christ? Have not they in reality, as far as God see it, been eternally saved from the point of election forward? I would think a done deal is a done deal, wouldn't you? Just asking.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

In some of the Calvinistic/Baptist circles I have visited, they basically viewed salvation as simply a time where they actually become cognizant that they in reality have been saved all aong, they just now came to a point of actually believing they have been elected by God before they ever did evil or good. It was an emotional time where they realized they were one of the lucky ones chosen by God.

 

[steaver]

HP: If unconditional election is true, in reality salvation for the select few has been accomplished from before man ever does evil or good.

Where does God's ALL KNOWING the end from the beginning fit into your pov? Do you believe that God does not know who will love Him and who will hate Him? Why do you struggle with this election issue? It is part of the scripture is it not?

Why would you see the need to place regeneration subsequent to accepting Christ?

Because that is God's plan for mankind to be accountable. Fallen man must have a choice.

 

[steaver]

In some of the Calvinistic/Baptist circles I have visited, they basically viewed salvation as simply a time where they actually become cognizant that they in reality have been saved all aong, they just now came to a point of actually believing they have been elected by God before they ever did evil or good. It was an emotional time where they realized they were one of the lucky ones chosen by God.

Election is a tricky subject for many. But it is in the scripture and we must deal with it.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: Where does God's ALL KNOWING the end from the beginning fit into your pov? Do you believe that God does not know who will love Him and who will hate Him? Why do you struggle with this election issue? It is part of the scripture is it not?

Quote:
HP: Why would you see the need to place regeneration subsequent to accepting Christ?

Steaver: Because that is God's plan for mankind to be accountable. Fallen man must have a choice.

HP: Make no mistake about it, I am glad you place belief antecedent to regeneration. I see that as inconsistent, but “oh those blessed inconsistencies!” Concerning that point you are indeed not in agreement with Calvinism. :thumbs:

Certainly God foreknows the future and those that will be saved, but God does not elect some via or because of such foreknowledge, nor reject others via or because of such foreknowledge. God simply foreknows matters of perfect choice consistent with the offer of salvation as opposed to salvation necessitated as unconditional election logically indicates. The passages on election DW has set forth in no wise constitutes unconditional election of individuals to salvation period. God is no respecter of persons. Whosoever will many come, not simply a select few chosen from eternity past. In summary, yes, election is Scriptural but unconditional arbitrary selection is not. Election has nothing to do with God arbitrarily choosing or selecting some and rejecting others with no connection to who will or will not fulfill the stated conditions of salvation, but rather is in accordance to foreknowing those that will accept freely His offer of grace by willingly obeying His mandated conditions.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

The question is not whether or not election is in the Scriptures, but rather to what or whom does it speak, and if spoken in regard to salvation is it to the negation of, or in light of, the truths concerning conditions to be met in order to be saved? Those should be the real focus of inquiry, should they not?

 

[Dr. Walter]

HP: If unconditional election is true, in reality salvation for the select few has been accomplished from before man ever does evil or good. Why would you see the need to place regeneration subsequent to accepting Christ? Have not they in reality, as far as God see it, been eternally saved from the point of election forward? I would think a done deal is a done deal, wouldn't you? Just asking.

The more you talk the more you reveal you have no idea what you are talking about. Not even Calvinists believe that election is salvation but rather it is unto salvation.

 

[quantumfaith]

Election is a tricky subject for many. But it is in the scripture and we must deal with it.

Agreed, most definitely "election" is expressed in the Word, but many of us are either "unconvinced" or staunchly in opposition to the typical interpretation of election promoted by those of the "reformed" position.

 

[quantumfaith]

The question is not whether or not election is in the Scriptures, but rather to what or whom does it speak, and if spoken in regard to salvation is it to the negation of, or in light of, the truths concerning conditions to be met in order to be saved? Those should be the real focus of inquiry, should they not?

:thumbs:

HP: You can be so much more rhetorically eloquent than me!

 

[quantumfaith]

The more you talk the more you reveal you have no idea what you are talking about. Not even Calvinists believe that election is salvation but rather it is unto salvation.

DW: Humbly spoken..... Although I know you will correct me, but this seems to be only a semantic difference.

 

[Tom Butler]

In some of the Calvinistic/Baptist circles I have visited, they basically viewed salvation as simply a time where they actually become cognizant that they in reality have been saved all along, they just now came to a point of actually believing they have been elected by God before they ever did evil or good. It was an emotional time where they realized they were one of the lucky ones chosen by God.

I'm aware that this may be the view of the Primitive Baptists (who are not Calvinists, but hyper-Calvinists), but I have never in all my years heard this said of Baptists/Calvinists, nor have I ever met or heard any of them who espouse this view.

I certainly do not believe it.

 

[Tom Butler]

DW: Humbly spoken..... Although I know you will correct me, but this seems to be only a semantic difference.

I assure you that it is more than a semantic difference. It is an actual difference.

To equate election and salvation is to misrepresent both.

Dr.Walter got it right. Election is unto salvation.

All elect will eventually be saved, but all elect are not currently saved.

 

[quantumfaith]

I assure you that it is more than a semantic difference. It is an actual difference.

To equate election and salvation is to misrepresent both.

Dr.Walter got it right. Election is unto salvation.

All elect will eventually be saved, but all elect are not currently saved.

If what you say is true, (and I honesty dont know for sure, speaking only for myself) then there does indeed exist an equivalence relation (mathematical terminology) between "elect" and "salvation".