An 18 month old baby

[RAdam]

People don't go to hell because they reject Christ. They go to hell because of sin.

 

[saved by grace]

People don't go to hell because they reject Christ. They go to hell because of sin.

"Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect that they also may obtain salvation which in Christ Jesus goes with eternal glory. The saying is sure: If we have died with him we shall also live with him. If we endure we shall also reign with him. If we deny him he also will deny us." 2 Tim. 2:10-13

 

[RAdam]

I see you stopped at verse 12. How convenient. Verse 13 says this: "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself."

Man is naturally in a state of condemnation. He doesn't become condemned because of unbelief or rejection of Christ.

 

[freeatlast]

I see you stopped at verse 12. How convenient. Verse 13 says this: "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself."

Man is naturally in a state of condemnation. He doesn't become condemned because of unbelief or rejection of Christ.

That is true, but he remains in that condemnation untill he comes to repentance and faith. :thumbs:

 

[webdog]

Sorry, but that doesn't answer the question. It could be David is speaking of the grave.

So he was encouraged that he would die one day as his son?!? The context does not lend itself to your understanding of it.

 

[webdog]

I believe that God numbers all those who die in infancy among the elect. That belief is based on the Just Nature of God.

So there is another dispensation of salvation besides by grace through faith?

 

[freeatlast]

What if one doesn't accept Christ but doesn't deny Christ? That would be the category of those who have never heard of Christ including infants/severely mentally handicapped.

If you do not accept Him you are denying Him! And if you never hear of Him you still are lost because we have the creation as witness. Read Romans

 

[freeatlast]

We believe that a person goes to heaven becasue he has accepted Christ as his Saviour.

But why does a person go to Hell. Is it beacuse he has rejected/denied Christ. If so, than an infant and/or (severly) mentaly retarded person has not rejected/denied Christ. (Luke 12:8-10)

The bible does not teach what you have said. We are born rejecting Him. We can come to the place where we actually and literally proclaim that we reject Him, but the fact that we do not proclaim it does not mean we have not rejected Him. It only means we have not accepted Him (repented).

 

[webdog]

Yet there are many instances of God making sure even the children and animals of certain peoples were slaughtered. If they were innocent, why kill them?

Just read this, actually. First, it has been appointed unto man once to die...that is part of the curse. Second, Isaiah 57:1 states that God protects them from from the evil to come. Of course it is speaking of the godly, but considering Jesus said that unless we become as they are, I think it's pretty safe to say God was merciful even in their slaughter protecting them from possibly becoming the pagans their fathers were and being separated from Him eternally.

 

[webdog]

Peggy today many people in the claimed church are with you. :tear:

Praise God...we need more who understand God's justice, love and mercy! :thumbs:

 

[webdog]

People don't go to hell because they reject Christ. They go to hell because of sin.

Not according to John 3:18 and many others.

 

[webdog]

The bible does not teach what you have said. We are born rejecting Him. We can come to the place where we actually and literally proclaim that we reject Him, but the fact that we do not proclaim it does not mean we have not rejected Him. It only means we have not accepted Him (repented).

Scripture where we are "born rejecting Him" (and please, I've read the couple Psalm "proof texts" the Augustinian original sin advocates use...they are not proof texts to a human being born or conceived a sinner)

 

[webdog]

While we say that infants and the mentally handicapped cannot make a profession of faith, is that just in our understanding? Or is God such that He knows the hearts of even a newborn to be able to understand them and their response to what they know? While they may not know it in our "normal" human terms, how do we not know that there isn't another way for them to have faith and understanding of God in order to be saved or unsaved? Is God not able to get His Word to them as well outside of them having to be mature enough to know?

Well, if it's just our understanding, it's the understanding God gave us through His Word. He states that faith comes by hearing and hearing from the Word of God. It's science fiction to even allude to the fact an infant, zygote or fetus has the capability to have faith in anything when we know it takes the mental faculties to do just that.

 

[freeatlast]

Scripture where we are "born rejecting Him" (and please, I've read the couple Psalm "proof texts" the Augustinian original sin advocates use...they are not proof texts to a human being born or conceived a sinner)

Hello WebDog,
well if you reject those scripture how can I give you another one that you do not reject. However here sre some you might look at.
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

You have to be able to look into the Greek, but the statement all have sinned is even talking about those who have not been born yet. All man kind has sinned in the eyes of God even future generations because all are sinners by birth. Two sinners have a little sinner. This is not saying simply those who are grown men. Do babies ever die? Why? Apply the scripture, not your feelings.

 

[webdog]

Then if you reject scripture at any level how can i give you another one that you do not reject. However here is one you might look at.

I don't reject Scripture...I reject your understanding of Scripture. If you fail to comprehend the difference, that is your problem.

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Past tense. What sin has a newly conceived human commited in the past? A newborn? An 18 month old? Scripture defines sin as the transgression of God's law, remember. To transgress something take a willing understanding of something.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

See last response.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

See first response. Sin entered into the world through one man, all weren't created sinners from the one man's sin.

Do babies ever die? Why? Apply the scripture, not your feelings.

Babies die due to the curse on mankind. Using your logic, since Jesus died physically He was a sinner? Apply the Scripture correctly.

 

[freeatlast]

I don't reject Scripture...I reject your understanding of Scripture. If you fail to comprehend the difference, that is your problem.
Past tense. What sin has a newly conceived human commited in the past? A newborn? An 18 month old? Scripture defines sin as the transgression of God's law, remember. To transgress something take a willing understanding of something.
See last response.
See first response. Sin entered into the world through one man, all weren't created sinners from the one man's sin.
Babies die due to the curse on mankind. Using your logic, since Jesus died physically He was a sinner? Apply the Scripture correctly.

I have applied scripture correctly. Jesus did die a sinner. Not His sins but yours and mine. You are still rejecting scripture.

 

[webdog]

I have applied scripture correctly. Jesus did die a sinner. Not His sins but yours and mine. You are still rejecting scripture.

[offensive language edited out] Jesus did NOT die a sinner, He died a sinners death and took on the sins of the whole world!! You need to find a new church

 

[freeatlast]

[edit] Jesus did NOT die a sinner, He died a sinners death and took on the sins of the whole world!! You need to find a new church

2Cor 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

This is why the Father forsook Him. Not simply because He was dying as an example or simply in place of us sinners. He literally became sin. Our Sin. Please listen to me. Just like we are made as perfect as Jesus, He was made as sinful as us by taking our sins. We are not simply called righteous, we are righteous just like God. Not because of ourselves but we are made such. The same was with the Lord. He was made or became sin for us. Most of us have seen the movie made by Mel Gibson on the death of the Lord. No doubt when we saw His beatings we wept. However in all the physical sufferings He went through that was nothing compared what He suffered when He became sin because of us. Just think about it. Here is the living Son of God who never felt sin. He never sinned! He never even had a bad thought. Then suddenly not just one sin was placed on Him but all the sins that has ever been or will be committed in all of history. Every gross sin that man has ever done. Let your mind run wild and see what that must have been like. Here is the suffering He went through. The nails were nothing compared to this. So much so that the Father forsook Him. Now He is really suffering! No one is trying to blaspheme the Lord. However the truth is He died as a sinner. Not His but ours! He took all our places. I realize this is difficult to hear, but that is because our churches today teach a watered down truth.
No place does the scripture say that He simply died a sinners death. You are adding to scripture.
I do agree with the new church suggestion. I wish there was one that taught the bible in my area.

 

[RAdam]

Not according to John 3:18 and many others.

Let's see what John 3:18 actually says.

"He that believeth is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Notice that Jesus did not say that he that believeth not is thereby condemned, or becomes condemned. He said that the person who believes not is condemned already. That person was already condemned, and is still under condemnation.

Man is naturally in a state of condemnation, but there is no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus. This is because Jesus condemned their sin in His flesh at Calvary.

 

[RAdam]

Paul said we were by nature the children of wrath even as others. Not by action, by nature. You can deny the clear language of David all you want, but you cannot get around that statement right there. Men are sinners by nature. They are dead in sin, alienated from God, under condemnation, and deserving of hell. Praise God for sending Jesus Christ to pull men out of this condition.