An 18 month old baby

[freeatlast]

Paul didn't say what nature it was by which those Gentiles kept the law.

These people Paul is talking about, let's consider them:

- They don't have the written law. The Jew did in those times, the Gentile didn't.
- They did the things contained in the law. Well this begs the question of how they did those things when they had no written revelation of them. This would be a great mystery were it not for the next big revealed fact about these people.
- They had the law written in their heart, and this was shown by their doing the things in the law. Now isn't this interesting. Paul says they had the law written in their heart. How? Who can write something in a man's heart? Well, God, as part of the new covenant, promised to write His law in our hearts. Isn't that interesting. Apparently only God can write His law in the heart of a man. Apparently God wrote His law in their hearts, and what's more, they are God's people.

Now, a few things about carnal man. Paul said the carnal mind is emnity against God, for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. The carnal mind hates God's law, will not be subject unto it, and thus will not perform the things in the law. These Gentiles in Romans 2 are different. They are a law unto themselves, though they don't even have a copy of the law to read. These Gentiles don't look like the carnal man Paul described as hating God's law, instead they look like they have the inward man that delights in God's law. They look regenerated to me.

Now I know this goes against the theology of many people, but the only way to read that passage, and compare it to other scripture, and make any sense out of it is to conclude that these Gentiles have a new nature, a born again nature, and that it is by that nature that they do the things contained in the law.

No that is not what it is saying. It is saying that even though some do not have the written law they by nature have a conscience that tells them certain things are wrong. They will be judged for violating the law of their conscience. Even those in the farthest parts of the world know that murder, rape, robbery and so on is wrong. So they make laws according to their conscience. Don't forget that the law came through Moses. Before the law of Moses there was man's laws that agreed with much of what Moses gave. God had not written in those peoples hearts before Moses' (God's law.) It had not even been given.
The Gentiles in the passage you that are giving are lost. The Spirit is trying to show that no one will escape judgment. Not those who have the law and not those who have not the law. All will stand before God and give account and found guilty unless they are born again. Some try and teach that those who do not hear will escape judgment. That is false and is what the Spirit is trying to show here. Some will be found guilty by and under the law (those who had the law) and some will be found guilty apart from the law. (those who had not God's law.)

 

[freeatlast]

Actually, we are still sinners. Sinners sin. I still sin and so do you. We are all still sinners. Now, we are sinners saved by grace, but nevertheless we are sinners.

The bible never says we are sinners saved by grace. That is some of the false teaching going on the the modern church. Sadly many have adopted it.

 

[webdog]

The bible never says we are sinners saved by grace. That is some of the false teaching going on the the modern church. Sadly many have adopted it.

I think it's apparent to the reader who's theology is "shipwrecked". Jesus was a sinner...believers are no longer sinners. Wow.

 

[freeatlast]

I think it's apparent to the reader who's theology is "shipwrecked". Jesus was a sinner...believers are no longer sinners. Wow.

Yes I would say wow. I believe the bible and you do not. WOW! How about posting the scripture that says Christians are sinners and not saints?

 

[Allan]

Yes I would say wow. I believe the bible and you do not. WOW! How about posting the scripture that says Christians are sinners and not saints?

First - it depends on how you are using the word.
1. Sinner can mean Godless heathen, unsaved (noun)
2. Sinner can also one who is/can sin (verb)

No Christian can be the first.
However ALL Christians fall under the second category as seen in the following passages:

Hbr 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Jam 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth [it] not, to him it is sin.


1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

We are saints, not of because of our sinlessness but because of His work in our regarding our present but more specifically our future state.

Saints does not mean sinless one nor that he is without sin.

 

[freeatlast]

First - it depends on how you are using the word.
1. Sinner can mean Godless heathen, unsaved (noun)
2. Sinner can also one who is/can sin (verb)

No Christian can be the first.
However ALL Christians fall under the second category as seen in the following passages:



We are saints, not of because of our sinlessness but because of His work in our regarding our present but more specifically our future state.

Saints does not mean sinless one nor that he is without sin.

No it does not depend. This is the problem today. When dealing with biblical issues we are to respond from a biblical standpoint, not what ever we want to say or some secular idealism. I am using the term the same way the bible uses it.

 

[Allan]

Yes I would say wow. I believe the bible and you do not. WOW! How about posting the scripture that says Christians are sinners and not saints?

Lastly, scripture NEVER declares you were righteous when you were saved.
The righteous do not need saving anymore than the healthy need a doctor.

Jesus came to call SINNERS to repentance and it was for THEM he died to give them life. NOT at the moment of his death but as says the scriptures. Believe AND BE saved...
or whosoever calls on the name of the Lord SHALL BE saved...
And MANY MANY more..

 

[freeatlast]

Lastly, scripture NEVER declares you were righteous when you were saved.
The righteous do not need saving anymore than the healthy need a doctor.

Jesus came to call SINNERS to repentance and it was for THEM he died to give them life. NOT at the moment of his death but as says the scriptures. Believe AND BE saved...
or whosoever calls on the name of the Lord SHALL BE saved...
And MANY MANY more..

I don't know what you are talking about. :tonofbricks: How does this reference to anything stated here?

 

[Allan]

I am using the term the same way the bible uses it.

Great.. then you agree with what I have given.

Granted believers are not spoken of as sinners (like the unsaved) but scripture does in fact speak to believers who sin or even are in the midst of being in sin.

I do agree that the term.. Christians are sinners .. can be confusing.
However the term used here needs to classified as a simple verb referring to the fact that we are not sinless.. yet.

 

[Allan]

deleted by me

 

[Allan]

I don't know what you are talking about. :tonofbricks: How does this reference to anything stated here?

I believe I misunderstood your statement to be what some others declare on here at times.

Basically they state we (Gods children) are saints from birth and not sinners. Reason - because Christ died for us and our sins have been forgiven already. Thus we are born eternally saved and only come to the knowledge of that salvation if we are the elect.. if not we can still be saved but never know it.

Note that sinners here is used in it's most common bible renderings as being one of the lost.

If that is not you view.. then I understand why it turned you for a loop
My apologies.

 

[Allan]

Let me state this Freeatlast..

I agree that the term 'sinner' should not be used when referring to 'believers' because of confusion it can set out.

If one DOES use it, they need to qualify the term as simply meaning one who sins and not in relation to what scripture describes a "sinner" to be.

My point was that the word itself has other meanings in our culture and its usage in a general way, while beneficial in relaying a point quickly can cause issues if those people do not understand the difference between it's usage in scripture and it's usage culturally.

 

[percho]

What are the two sure things that befall all men with the exception of Jesus and one befell him and also except those remaining to the coming of the Lord? And no, one isn't taxes. See Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: Jesus because was the Holy One and knew no sin received the sure mercies of David and saw no corruption. This befalls all because of this. Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. Jesus, the Word put it this way. John 3:3,1st part 6 Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh. It does not matter if you are 1 day old or 100 years old. Ye must be born again/born from above. Jesus was able to die because the Word was made flesh. Christ died for our sins but did not see corruption because he was sinless. The singular purpose for the Word being made flesh was to die and pay for our sin. He was made like the first Adam a living soul subject to death three days and three nights after which it was said, “Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. “ being, the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. Now we can be, John 3:6 2nd part and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Making the following verse one of the most beautiful in the Word.
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. From the dead that is.

I might add that it is my faith that the faithfulness of God will bring this about. I believe this is all about what God does and has nothing to do with what we do or believe. Paul was going down the road to put people in prison and or kill them but Jesus had another plan.

 

[Allan]

Do you believe if an 18 month old baby will go to heaven if he were to die?


Ok, so the natural progression is the "age of accountability" so go for it.

But the poll is based on an 18 month old!

It is sad to see many people dropping the biblical doctrine regarding Accountability or also known as (but severely misunderstood) Age of Accountability - AoA.

For anyone to presume or even 'assume' that any child, infant, or infirm of mind goes to hell, illustrates a serious lack in biblical understanding - IMO. But that, again, is my opinion but one I hold to stringently based upon the biblical evidence I have found.

However - with respect to answering the OP :
The view of any child going to hell is an untrue opinion relating to salvation the other (AoA) is a biblical concept of revealed truth. Though it is true there is not a whole lot on there subject there is enough to understand the heart and mind of God on the subject.

1. One group will say there is no age of accountabiltiy ... we all make mistakes at times.

2. The other group will state that the age of accountability (like myself) is a biblical concept. And no, the phrase itself isn't found in scripture but then again neither is Trinity, or theology, or many other words we use to describe concepts in scriptures.


One thing you will note is that scriptures do speak not so much as to a 'specific' age (like say 8 years old) but more specifically but a time in a persons life when God brings them to an understanding of sin - thus that 'time' in a persons life is designated by the general term 'age'.

Unfortunately this truth of understanding sin is not like some parents try to teach their children (ex doing bad things = sin and doing good things = ?? ) With this kind of teaching the term good and bad are perceptions those things acceptable to the one we wish to please - Mom and Dad not God.
God's terms for good and bad are righteousness and sin and these are specifically defined.

All children must understand sin according to its nature and offense to God not mom and dad because then the child will use their parents standard to determine what is sin and not Gods. Part of understanding Salvation is understanding you have 'sinned' against a 'Holy' God and are deserving of hell. Thus also an understanding of this aspect as well is needed, indeed necessary, that it might be a "Good News to the one who's eyes have been opened.

There are various verses in scripture which convey this concept.
For example - Christ illistrates according to John, that accountability is determined when one has an understanding of sin:

Jhn 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.

or as the ESV puts it -
If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have been guilty of sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin.

or

Jhn 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth

or as the ESV puts it -
Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, 'We see,' your guilt remains.

The main point of both the above is that having no knowledge of their sin, according to our Lord and Savior, means having no culpability to that sin establishing not only the sin itself but their guilt IN sin. Of course they (the men Jesus was speaking to) 'have' sinned before God but if Jesus had not revealed that sin to them, - as he said - they would have no sin and no guilt. Yet because they say, we 'see' (to perceive or understand) their sin and thus guilt 'remains'.

Another verse (as was given already) is when King Davids child dies, David knows that when he dies he will be with his child. But here is the kicker - David also knew that when he died he would be with the Lord ..."I will dwell in the House of the Lord forever". Therefore for ANYONE to presume or assume that David thought he was just going to die and lie in grave with his child rotting together.. doesn't comprehend the joy that David felt in knowing this truth of their being together. He didn't get up, clean up and eat because he was excited that he will one day be with his 'dead' child. The sheer ignorance of such is .. unfathomable.

Another aspect spoken of is by Jesus Himself regarding the children.
Jesus talks about allowing the 'Children to come to him for such is the kingdom of heaven". Though it is a direct reference to humility and faith (notice all have it, none are left out) and thus the example for adults to be like those children and have trust/faith. It is also an interesting reference regarding the acceptance of them all NOT some - for "of such is the kingdom of heaven". Apparently heaven is made up of such and gives much credence to Davids proclamation and actions at the death of his son as well.

Does this mean children are innocent and do not have a sin nature - by no means. Their sin nature is still a fallen one, and as being fallen it is corrupt and still in need to cleansing and renewal by Christ Jesus. God justice demands this as He is both Holy and Just.. and neither will allow any spot of imperfection before the Lord our God.

The age is different for each person not so much so because they can or can't understand it (though it is a factor in relation to the rational mind) it falls specifically as to when God reveals truth that goes deeper than mans perspective of good and bad.

 

[Allan]

Additionally...

When the Children of Israel refused to enter the Land of Promise GOD punished His people but it is interesting who was judged and who was not and WHY.
All those 20 and older were judged to wandering in the wilderness until all died. All those UNDER that age were allowed to enter the Promised Land. Why?
Scripture tells us:
"Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there; to them I will give it, and they shall possess it." (Deu 1.39)

With respect to OT account of the Jews who were 20 years and above not entering the Promised Land is a good 'illustration' of what the 'age of accountability' implies. This more aptly referred to exegetally as their (Jewish) 'age of service' whereby those reaching this age can serve most anywhere in Jewish culture. For those Jews taking the land (20 and over) those who were in service to God, they are accountable for their sin because they were supposed to go in and take the land but everyone of 'age' (with the exception of 2) said No Way out of fear. Therefore they were all judged (those over the age of 20) for their sin (disobedience) since they all knew what was good in the sight of the Lord God in this and to not obey God, they all knew it to be sin.

All those 19 and younger (down to the infants) had no sin in the matter however since it was not something they were to be accountable for because they had no choice in the matter. The sin was laid squarely upon those who know what the Lord desired and choose otherwise. Though those under 20 wandered as well relating to the punishment decreed on all those 20 and above.. they were to receive the promise to enter the land.. waiting on God's timing not theirs.

And this is why I stated the point is a good 'illstration' of what the age of accountability is. As an 'illustrative point' you could state that all above the age of 20 (of a competent mind, thus able to serve) were fully accountable for their sin having attained by now such an understanding of it.


However I will state again that we need to be very careful in relation to children (regarding salvation) and understand that at all times with all people and ages - it is about the knowledge of good and evil before or according to God, not an understanding of right or wrong according to mommy and daddy or even civil governments. It is about sin and righteousness before and according to God. No man can teach another these things for they are revealed by God to man (all men). Right and wrong are perceptions of good and evil and the definition (of that commonly accepted right and wrong) is derived from those in authority. Like fathers and mothers and another is civil governments, all of these display rights and wrongs from a certain perspective but these are not true representation of godly righteousness and sin. They are only shadows or illustrations of them. The ultimate and only absolute however is that which is defined by God. A child knows what is right and wrong in relation to what his parents desire and is accountable once he understands that which is good and bad to them. So it is with God and the AOA. It is only those who have come to understand what sin is, has done, and it's consequences by God's revelation to them. However God does not reveal His truths to all people at any specific age nor all at the same time. Thus some children 'can' be saved at a young age and some God waits patiently for His appointed time to reveal His truths to them.

 

[Iconoclast]

2._____ Our first parents, by this sin, fell from their original righteousness and communion with God, and we in them whereby death came upon all: all becoming dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the faculties and parts of soul and body.
( Romans 3:23; Romans 5:12, etc; Titus 1:15; Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-19 )

3._____ They being the root, and by God's appointment, standing in the room and stead of all mankind, the guilt of the sin was imputed, and corrupted nature conveyed, to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation, being now conceived in sin, and by nature children of wrath, the servants of sin, the subjects of death, and all other miseries, spiritual, temporal, and eternal, unless the Lord Jesus set them free.
( Romans 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21, 22, 45, 49; Psalms 51:5; Job 14:4; Ephesians 2:3; Romans 6:20 Romans 5:12; Hebrews 2:14, 15; 1 Thessalonians 1:10 )

 

[Allan]

2._____ Our first parents, by this sin, fell from their original righteousness and communion with God, and we in them whereby death came upon all: all becoming dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the faculties and parts of soul and body.
( Romans 3:23; Romans 5:12, etc; Titus 1:15; Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-19 )

3._____ They being the root, and by God's appointment, standing in the room and stead of all mankind, the guilt of the sin was imputed, and corrupted nature conveyed, to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation, being now conceived in sin, and by nature children of wrath, the servants of sin, the subjects of death, and all other miseries, spiritual, temporal, and eternal, unless the Lord Jesus set them free.
( Romans 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21, 22, 45, 49; Psalms 51:5; Job 14:4; Ephesians 2:3; Romans 6:20 Romans 5:12; Hebrews 2:14, 15; 1 Thessalonians 1:10 )

Yes.. I have read the rendering of what they 'think' scripture is saying or speaking of/to (long before now) and on somethings they are correct just as on others they 'remain' incorrect. Remember that theology is man's understanding of what scripture is telling us. The above is but 'one' view.

The problem is and as I have shown earlier.. Jesus plainly states the above view of 'original guilt' is not a biblical doctrine. He revealed their sin, and if he had not done that.. they would not be guilty.

What shall we then say.. even though Jesus tells us otherwise (along with other scriptures as well).. it must still be a true saying?

 

[Winman]

It is sad to see many people dropping the biblical doctrine regarding Accountability or also known as (but severely misunderstood) Age of Accountability - AoA.

For anyone to presume or even 'assume' that any child, infant, or infirm of mind goes to hell, illustrates a serious lack in biblical understanding - IMO. But that, again, is my opinion but one I hold to stringently based upon the biblical evidence I have found.

However - with respect to answering the OP :
The view of any child going to hell is an untrue opinion relating to salvation the other (AoA) is a biblical concept of revealed truth. Though it is true there is not a whole lot on there subject there is enough to understand the heart and mind of God on the subject.

1. One group will say there is no age of accountabiltiy ... we all make mistakes at times.

2. The other group will state that the age of accountability (like myself) is a biblical concept. And no, the phrase itself isn't found in scripture but then again neither is Trinity, or theology, or many other words we use to describe concepts in scriptures.


One thing you will note is that scriptures do speak not so much as to a 'specific' age (like say 8 years old) but more specifically but a time in a persons life when God brings them to an understanding of sin - thus that 'time' in a persons life is designated by the general term 'age'.

Unfortunately this truth of understanding sin is not like some parents try to teach their children (ex doing bad things = sin and doing good things = ?? ) With this kind of teaching the term good and bad are perceptions those things acceptable to the one we wish to please - Mom and Dad not God.
God's terms for good and bad are righteousness and sin and these are specifically defined.

All children must understand sin according to its nature and offense to God not mom and dad because then the child will use their parents standard to determine what is sin and not Gods. Part of understanding Salvation is understanding you have 'sinned' against a 'Holy' God and are deserving of hell. Thus also an understanding of this aspect as well is needed, indeed necessary, that it might be a "Good News to the one who's eyes have been opened.

There are various verses in scripture which convey this concept.
For example - Christ illistrates according to John, that accountability is determined when one has an understanding of sin:


or

The main point of both the above is that having no knowledge of their sin, according to our Lord and Savior, means having no culpability to that sin establishing not only the sin itself but their guilt IN sin. Of course they (the men Jesus was speaking to) 'have' sinned before God but if Jesus had not revealed that sin to them, - as he said - they would have no sin and no guilt. Yet because they say, we 'see' (to perceive or understand) their sin and thus guilt 'remains'.

Another verse (as was given already) is when King Davids child dies, David knows that when he dies he will be with his child. But here is the kicker - David also knew that when he died he would be with the Lord ..."I will dwell in the House of the Lord forever". Therefore for ANYONE to presume or assume that David thought he was just going to die and lie in grave with his child rotting together.. doesn't comprehend the joy that David felt in knowing this truth of their being together. He didn't get up, clean up and eat because he was excited that he will one day be with his 'dead' child. The sheer ignorance of such is .. unfathomable.

Another aspect spoken of is by Jesus Himself regarding the children.
Jesus talks about allowing the 'Children to come to him for such is the kingdom of heaven". Though it is a direct reference to humility and faith (notice all have it, none are left out) and thus the example for adults to be like those children and have trust/faith. It is also an interesting reference regarding the acceptance of them all NOT some - for "of such is the kingdom of heaven". Apparently heaven is made up of such and gives much credence to Davids proclamation and actions at the death of his son as well.

Does this mean children are innocent and do not have a sin nature - by no means. Their sin nature is still a fallen one, and as being fallen it is corrupt and still in need to cleansing and renewal by Christ Jesus. God justice demands this as He is both Holy and Just.. and neither will allow any spot of imperfection before the Lord our God.

The age is different for each person not so much so because they can or can't understand it (though it is a factor in relation to the rational mind) it falls specifically as to when God reveals truth that goes deeper than mans perspective of good and bad.

I agree with this. Children are "flesh" just like anyone else. If you want to call it the sin nature, very well, but the scriptures say "flesh". Children can and do many things that are sinful, they can lie, they can steal... But as Allan points out, they are not mature enough to understand sin and the consequences before God and are not held accountable. I also agree that the age of accountability is different with each child according to how fast they mature.

We do have the account of David and his child that died. I also agree this teaches his child went to heaven because David as a prophet knew he was saved and going to heaven himself.

But we also have several scriptures that show that children do not understand right from wrong.

Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

This verse shows that little children do not understand good and evil and that they have to mature to understand this knowledge.

Deut 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

This verse also shows the children had no knowledge between good and evil in the day that their parents sinned. The parents died in the wilderness, the children were allowed to enter the land of promise.

Jon 4:11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

Here God shows one of his primary purposes in sending Jonah to Ninevah was to spare 120,000 children who could not discern between their right hand and left hand. This is speaking of having a knowledge of good and evil.

So age of accountability is shown several times in scripture.

 

[Jim1999]

If there is an age of accountability, at what stage does God create sin? At what age does responsibility begin? Let us wipe out original sin, which is biblical, to accept a spurious "doctrine" to satisfy our own thinking, or lack of thinking.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[webdog]

If there is an age of accountability, at what stage does God create sin? At what age does responsibility begin? Let us wipe out original sin, which is biblical, to accept a spurious "doctrine" to satisfy our own thinking, or lack of thinking.

Cheers,

Jim

If you would just look at the second part of respons-ibility, you would have your answer. Ability is required. At what age can each person walk? Talk? Reason? Is it the same for each person?