The sign of the son of man

[lastday]

Lastday

RAdam,
The more important point is the alignment of dates with Passover time.

This also from Tony Warren:
"With respect to 31 AD and 32 AD, we find these both are impossible dates, because they don't align with the passover feast (The time when Jesus died). We can know...without question by back tracking to the moon phases on those dates (Jewish calendar being regulated by the moon)...that Christ was Crucified in 33 AD"

.

"Sir Isaac Newton in 1733 believed Christ could have died on April 3, AD 33.
Humphreys & Waddington (1983) have suggested that reports that "the Moon appeared like blood" at the crucifixion probably referred to the lunar eclipse on 3 April AD 33, and Humphreys (1990) has refuted Schaefer's conclusion that the eclipse could not have been seen from Jerusalem. Finally, evidence is mounting that Herod died later than 4 BC...as late as AD 1 (Pratt, 1990)"

http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/newton.html

We need to get back to Rev.11:18 for the EXACT TIME for the SC!
The 7th Trumpet sounds on the Day Christ comes for the 3 R's!!
That means the 7 Last Plagues must empty before it sounds!!!
Mel

 

[Winman]

Lastday

While I certainly agree with you that the second coming is future, and I absolute disagree with the Preterist view, we have to be careful about setting dates. Many folks have done this in the past and have been embarrassingly wrong.

I do take a great interest in what you say, and I have seen another site where a fellow makes some predications about when Jesus will return.

http://www.thepropheticyears.com/comments/countdown_to_second_coming.htm

This fellow has some interesting charts based on a number of theories, many line up well with what you have said. In fact, most do.

But we have to be careful about setting dates.

 

[lastday]

Winman,
Thank you for the caution in setting specific dates for the S.C.
The dates of 2026 to 2033 assume an exact period of 2000 years.
My basic concern here is the "Order of Events"; not the exact date.
Mel

 

[RAdam]

I just it is funny that you say we can't trust anything outside the bible, and then use things outside the bible to set events like the crucifixion, which then becomes the basis for end times predictions.

 

[lastday]

RAdam,
I feel we have exhausted the evidence for/against setting specific dates.
The much more important matter concerns the exact order of Lastday events.
Surely its worth the time to consider WHY Vial #7 empties before Trump #7 sounds.
Mel

 

[lastday]

Lastday

RAdam,
Before we proceed with the Order of Events on the Lastday, please go to the following site and read what I believe to be a most important principle in the study of Scripture. It is called Chiasmus, the structure of a passage that shows a "concentric rather than a linear" path of development.

http://www.inthebeginning.org/chiasmus/introduction/chiasmus_intro.htm

After reading the article, I think we can appreciate what comes first in
importance in the Order of Events...as opposed to what is mentioned first.
I have stated that the 7th Trumpet sounds after the 7th Plague empties.
Yet the Plagues are described 5 chapters after that of the 7th Trumpet.
Mel

 

[Winman]

I just it is funny that you say we can't trust anything outside the bible, and then use things outside the bible to set events like the crucifixion, which then becomes the basis for end times predictions.

The scriptures do not give us dates like 33 A.D., what they usually give us is the year of certain ruler's reigns.

In this case it is not harmful to consult historians and archeologists who have made detailed studies to arrive at dates. We have to remember that the further back we go, the more chance for error exists.

But NT dates are fairly accurate, we know some dates with a great deal of certainty.

 

[lastday]

Lastday

Winman,

Thank you for pointing out that the historical data of Luke 3:1 is pertinent.
As far back as Sir Isaac Newton, April 3, AD 33, a Friday, has been accepted
as a date for Christ's death. Newton himself figured this as a likely probability.

Now I'm interested in the 7th Trumpet as the exact time for God's wrath.
It's also the "exact time to resurrect and reward every/all Believer(s)".
Before the "Day of Wrath", the Plagues will exhaust God's Patience.
Mel

 

[RAdam]

The historical date of Luke 3:1 go against a date of 33 AD for the death of Christ.

 

[lastday]

Lastday

Winman and RAdam,

Please Read Rev.15:1 to Rev.16:17.

Before Apostle John described the 7 Plagues, Jesus revealed to him that "no one could enter heaven's Temple until the last Vial had emptied in the air".
One reason given was that during the outpouring of God's "thumos", (anger),
the "Temple would be filled with the smoke of His glory and power". This
means that God's "thumos" had not yet been "mixed in the Cup of His wrath"!

A 2nd reason, not stated, but implied by the fact that men "refuse to repent of their evil deeds", is that God's Patience allows them to gather their armies to Armageddon while Jesus "Blesses the Saints who are eagerly watching for His coming like a thief" while the armies are gathering to Armageddon. God's anger, "thumos", indicates Patience, not wrath, because it is part of His "macro-thumos"...His long-suffering ANGER!! Rev.16:12-16.

A 3rd reason is that all the Martyrs will "come out from under the Altar" and the 144,000 Jewish "Firstfruit unto God and the Lamb" must be rescued from Mt. Zion before they meet God in heaven. They will "stand before God on a crystal river/sea mixed with fire" (before His anger mixes with his wrath). They must sing their songs of Moses and the Lamb prior to entering the Temple in heaven!!!

The Chiasmus (inverse parallelisms) that put their songs after the last Plague exhausts God's Patience and, at the same time, "before they enter the Temple", is the structural Key for knowing all seven Plagues must empty before the "smoke of God's power and glory" clears from within the Temple of heaven. The 7th Trumpet does not sound immediately after the Plagues exhaust God's Patience, but the 7th Vial empties and its contents remain suspended in the air so that another Chiasmus may be fulfilled...the Three-Act Drama in the Temple that results in God's "anger and wrath mixing together in the Cup of Wrath" to utterly destroy Babylon and the cities of the nations as soon as the 7th Trumpet sounds that "God's Wrath has come"!!!!
Mel

 

[RAdam]

I'm not talking about the order of things in Revelation.

You keep on harping on a crucifixion date of 33 AD and use that as the basis for your predictions, and my point is that date is unlikely given Luke 3:1.

 

[lastday]

RAdam,
That's ok with me. We will "know the End is Near" in due time.
When we know it is near, we will be studying the order of events.
I'm simply anticipating the order of Lastday events in that sole context.

On the Lastday Saints will be "watching for the Sign of the Son of Man".

But while the 3-Act Drama occurs in heaven's Temple, Signs of that Day continue.
The Jews will "look up, stand erect and pray to escape all these things happening.
The Remnant will "know their redemption and their Kingdom are near" on that day.
Mel

 

[lastday]

Lastday

Friends,

The Plagues Exhaust God's Patience

The smoke of God's power and glory fills heaven's Temple while His Patience allows the wicked to “repent of their evil deeds”. Instead they continue to blaspheme His name. During the 3rd Plague the Angel in charge of the waters proclaims: “You are righteous O Lord, the one who was and is holy, because you have judged these things...because they have shed the blood of saints and prophets and you have given them blood to drink; for they are worthy”. And the Angel of Fire, in charge of the Altar under which the Martyrs await God's vengeance, responds: “Even so, Lord God Almighty, your judgments are true and righteous”!

During the 4th Plague “the sun was given power to scorch people with fire. Under the intense heat they curse the name of God; but they refuse to repent and glorify Him”. During the 5th Plague “the Beast's kingdom plunges into darkness; men gnaw their tongues in agony and curse God because of their pains and sores and refuse to repent of their deeds”. God even allows the armies of millions to invade Israel and begin to ravage and pillage the people whom He has chosen to redeem a “2nd time”!!

With the 7th Plague emptied in the air, a loud voice utters a single word coming out of heaven from the Throne: “Gegonen, It is Done”. Here is the end of God's Patience.
The End of the Age has come. Time waits no longer to avenge the blood of martyrs. Before they enter the Temple they “stand before God and sing the Song of Moses”!!!
Mel Miller

 

[lastday]

Lastday

Friends,

Do the Plagues Complete God's Wrath...or Just His “Long-Suffering Anger”?

The Plagues FINISH God's patience in allowing men to “repent” before the Great and Wonderful Sign appears in heaven to show His righteous deeds. Rev.15:1,4. Martyrs (including Elijah and John) and 144,000 Jews “stand before God and sing the songs of Moses and the Lamb” before they enter the Temple. Rev.14:2-4; Rev.15:2-4; Rev.15:8.

The 7th Trumpet sounds after "Chronos-time ends and God's mystery was finished"; the Two Prophets rise up on the Lastday! It sounds after the 6th and 7th Seals open and while armies of the 6th Trumpet and 6th Plague are in place for their total destruction!!

To understand this is to know the secret of "God's Mystery". Rev.10:6-7; Rev.11:6-7.

We must see the purpose of the Inverse Parallels in Rev.14 regarding the mixing of God's anger with wrath and the corresponding reaping/trampling of the great winepress of His anger (2372). The trampling of Rev.14:20 is symbolic of literal trampling in Rev.19:15. The mixture of anger in the “Cup of Wrath” occurs after the 7th Plague empties. God's patience lasts through the Plagues of Rev.16; but ends as the 7th implodes in Rev.16:18-21.
Mel

 

[lastday]

Lastday

Friends,
Essence of Discussions on God's Anger and Wrath on Baptist Board in 2006

9/13/2006 – 6:29 AM – Post #1 (Of 897 Posts since Dec.2005):
Friends,
What is the difference between God's anger and His wrath as found in Rev.14:10? Which comes first...the anger or the wrath ...and why?
6:58 AM – Post #2:
Please note in Rev.14:10, KJV or NASB, "God's WRATH” mixes in the Cup of "Indignation" or else "Anger" RATHER than "God's ANGER mixes in the Cup of Wrath"!
How does Rom.2:4-5 and Rom.9:22 shed light on this difference in translation?

Marcia, of the 10,000 Posts Club, Post #4:

“I am not sure there's a difference between his wrath and his anger”.

7:57 PM – Post #5:
To Marcia,
The "wine of God's ANGER mixes full strength in the Cup of Wrath" after the last Plague empties in the air! The Plagues do NOT "complete God's wrath" because the last Plague empties in the air before that Cup pours out the "wine of its ANGER and WRATH"!! It pours out after the 7th Trumpet announces "God's wrath has come"!!! Rev.16:19-21. Mel

9/14/2006 - 11:23 AM – Post #6 to Lacy:
Please consider the evidence for (us) not equating anger & wrath! The word for anger (thumos; #2372) has a revealing synonym that translators and interpreters fail to consider in finding the difference!! The Greek is makro-thumos, #3115; "long-anger"; and is translated as "long-suffering" (Latin) or as "patience"!!! Rom.9:22; 2 Pet.3:9.

Peter reveals "makro-thumos" continues for 1000 years but is like no more than a single day to God! Editors of the KJV had 1000 years since the Latin Vulgate to recognize God's anger has continued for 1000 years!! Editors of the New KJV had 400 years of added scholarship to consider that God's "long-anger" endures until "the wine of His anger mixes full strength with His wrath" on the DAY of God's and the Lamb's wrath"!!!
2 Pet.3:9; Rev.14:10; Rev.6:16-17; Rev.16:19; Rev.19:15.

Instead, both the KJV and NKJV (as well as the NASB) mixes God's "wrath with His anger" instead of "anger with His wrath"! Revelation predicts the mixture of ANGER in the Cup of WRATH in the first of only three places that John combines the two words in the same verse!! This verse, Rev.14:10, requires the end of God's wrath upon the Jews (Luke 21:22-24) and predicts the mixture of His anger and wrath upon unrepentant Beast-worshipers as of the DAY Christ comes with ALL the Saints. The other 2 verses FULFILL the prediction after the Last Plague "completes God's thumos"; His anger. Rev.15:1,7; Rev.16:1. Then comes anger + wrath. Rev.16:19-21 and Rev.19:15-21!!!

"What if God, wanting to show His WRATH (orgay), endured with much LONG-ANGER (makro-thumia) the vessels of Wrath prepared for destruction... not knowing the goodness of God leads to repentance...for they treasure up WRATH (to come) on (a single) DAY of the righteous judgment of God". Rom.9:22; Rom.2:4-5.

The combined execution of God's anger and wrath occurs only on the DAY Christ comes with ALL the Saints and destroys ALL who refuse to repent! Only those who "keep begging the Lord to escape will be able to stand before the Son of Man"!! They will be "kept alive" after Jesus "gathers the elect from earth to heaven" (to meet Him in the sky)!!! Mark 13:27; Luke 21:25-36; Luke 17:33.

In Post #8, 5:54 PM, I responded to Lacy again:
Lacy, my reference text is the exact same Greek Textus Receptus used by translators of the KJV 400 years ago. Baker's Interlinear Greek-English NT made his translation of this Greek text in 1895 from which the earlier translators never once translated thumos as "anger". Baker used “fury” instead of anger which is OK. But it was this Greek text from which they translated thumos as "wrath" in Rev.14:10,19; Rev.15:1,7; Rev.16:1 and orgay as "indignation" in Rev.14:10 and thumos as "fierceness" in Rev.16:19 and Rev.19:15!

Continuing the inconsistency, after correctly translating ORGAY (3709) as "wrath" in Rev.6:16-17 and Rev.11:18, they proceeded to translate THUMOS (2372) as "wrath" in the above five verses!! BUT, as both Orgay and Thumos occur in Rev.16:19 and in Rev.19:15, they changed the translation of Thumos from "wrath" to "fierceness"!!!

Why did KJV translators never, not once, translate Thumos as "anger"? To Be Continued. Mel

 

[lastday]

Lastday

Friends,
Continuing the Post on Anger and Wrath from 2006:

Consequence of KJV Translators Never Once Rendering Thumos as "Anger"

Early Church Fathers imbibed the teaching of Plato who taught that the great difference between thumos and orgay must disallow any reference to God as being subject to the human "perturbations of anger". Translators of the KJV were influenced by Platonism and the Fathers...refusing to attribute “anger” to God. But this led to substituting “wrath for anger” and the view of “anger and wrath” as interchangeable instead of conflicting emotions. It blurs the difference between God's disciplinary action and total destruction on the “Day of Wrath”.

In 2006, Post #14, I explained these words had become synonymous:
Friends,
We need to understand why Orgay (#3709), rather than Macro-thumos (#3115), is listed as a synonym for Thumos (#2372)...the supposition that “anger and wrath” are interchangeable. Only Orgay has the meaning of punitive wrath that results in Hell. The words Thumos and Makro-thumos do not refer to a vengeful God. For God’s righteous “anger” precedes His “wrath” and His “long-anger” continues until it explodes in vindictive punishment!

Strong’s Concordance interprets Orgay and Thumos as meaning "anger and/or wrath". It wrongly makes them synonymous, not because Orgay means “anger”, but because translators of the KJV inversely translated their meanings even where anger applies to men rather than to God: Eph.4:31; Col.3:8. If translators had not done this, Strong’s could not have listed Thumos as meaning “wrath”!!

It is not the Holy Spirit’s fault that men never interpreted Thumos as “anger”; and failed to do so by inversely translating these two words. The Holy Spirit in Col.2:8 warns against falling “prey to philosophy and vain deceit after the tradition of men”. Then, in Col.3:8, He reveals Thumos applies to men just as it applies five times to God in Rev.14:10 thru Rev.16:1; but the KJV translators followed the vain philosophy and deceit of man’s tradition ever since Plato claimed that God is not affected by the “perturbations of human anger”!!!

By applying Orgay (as “anger”) and Thumos (as “wrath”) to men, the translators switched the meanings so that both words have come to mean anger or wrath. They consistently translated Thumos as “wrath” in respect to God. They made Thumos synonymous with Orgay and overlooked that God’s “long-anger” (long-suffering, patience or endurance) continues until the Day Christ comes in glory with ALL the Saints!

The Day of God's "anger and wrath" is a single 12-Hour-Day!!

In Post #17, Ed Edwards agreed with me on the reason for the present misunderstanding:

“I have to agree with Brother Mel Miller on this point.
This is frequent in Strong's. Strong's lists all the meanings they know,
then add the KJV translation(s) as the last terms”

!!!
Mel Miller

 

[canadyjd]

......On the Lastday Saints will be "watching for the Sign of the Son of Man".

But while the 3-Act Drama occurs in heaven's Temple, Signs of that Day continue.
The Jews will "look up, stand erect and pray to escape all these things happening.
The Remnant will "know their redemption and their Kingdom are near" on that day...

In Matt. 24:30, the "Sign (singular) of the Son of Man" is referring to a banner or standard that flies ahead of an invading army. This language is meant to convey that all will understand at that very moment that Jesus has returned in His glory to collect His Saints and reign eternally.

The context is clear. "all the tribes of the earth will mourn and...will see the Son of Man..."

You are taking the singular (sign=banner/standard) and making it plural (signs). By doing so the meaning of "sign" is not immediate (Jesus has returned to collect His saints; which is clear in the context) but rather pointing to a future event which the saints (only) are given clues of the timing.

peace to youraying:

 

[lastday]

Lastday

Canadyjd,
Thank You for This:

You are taking the singular (sign=banner/standard) and making it plural (signs)...the meaning of "sign" is not immediate (Jesus has returned
to collect His saints; which is clear in the context) but rather pointing to a future event which the saints (only) are given clues of the timing.

Many don't know the difference between "Sign" and "Signs". Signs of the Day of Wrath precede the "Sign of the Son of Man". The signs refer to
changes in the sun and moon where the sun supernaturally turns dark at noon in Israel while the predictable timing for the turning of the moon to "blood-red" occurs for 3.5 hours starting at 5 AM westward from the East Coast of the Americas!

I find a universal failure to appreciate what Jesus meant by the "day or hour". It's not a matter of unknown timing; but one of "expectation". Our Preterist brethren don't know the difference between preparedness and being caught off guard, between East and West as the armies come from the rising of the sun instead of Rome, between History and unfulfilled Prophecy as Christ actually appears, NOR between the certainty of future literal events vs their figurative imaginations...for they will not know about or expect the Signs of the Erchomai of the Son of Man's Coming following the Sign of His imminent Parousia!!

I mention this because Preterists command the dominant presence on our forums and present the stark incompatibility existing between Futurism and their views. Preterists, not expecting Christ on the Day He appears, may be "seen naked" at the Sign of Christ's Parousia which will indeed occur prior to all men beholding His Erchomai to "gather all the Saints from earth" while Jews "mourn and keep begging to escape wrath at His Parousia"!!!

The Sign of Christ's Presence will be like a "flash of lightning"! Matt.24:27.
Signs of that Day of Wrath precede the "Sign of His Presence"!! Matt.24:29.
The Signs of His Coming include the Jews weeping in "Jealousy"!!! Rom.11:11.
Mel Miller

 

[canadyjd]

...The signs refer to changes in the sun and moon where the sun supernaturally turns dark at noon in Israel while the predictable timing for the turning of the moon to "blood-red" occurs for 3.5 hours starting at 5 AM westward from the East Coast of the Americas.

Where do you find the reference to "5 AM westward from the East Coast of the Americas" in scripture?

I find a universal failure to appreciate what Jesus meant by the "day or hour". It's not a matter of unknown timing; but one of "expectation".

Certainly Jesus puts the focus on "expectation", but He does so specifically by emphasizing the "unkwown timing" of His coming.

Matt:24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone...."

Matt: 24:42 "Therefore, be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming..."

Matt:24:44 "For this reason you be ready too; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think."

Matt 25:13: "Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour."

Jesus then gives various parables of those who were prepared or not prepared; The head of the house, the sensible slave vs. the evil slave, the Ten virgins, the slaves with the "talents".

Each emphasize those who remained prepared (or not) even though none knew the "day or hour" for which they were waiting.

...Preterists, not expecting Christ on the Day He appears, may be "seen naked" at the Sign of Christ's Parousia which will indeed occur prior to all men beholding His Erchomai to "gather all the Saints from earth" while Jews "mourn and keep begging to escape wrath at His Parousia"!!!

Preterists, or any other Christian that understands scripture rightly, will be prepared for Christ on the Day He appears because they will live their lives everyday as if Christ might return.

However, those who set a date, specifically a future date (say 2032 or so), will certainly be surprised should Christ return any day prior, or any day after.

peace to youraying:

 

[lastday]

Lastday

Candyjd,

Certainly Jesus puts the focus on "expectation", but He does so
specifically by emphasizing the "unknown timing" of His coming.

My friend, it's only after 77 years of Bible study that the intent of Jesus
has given me justifiable reason for the time to "know the end is near".

His words concerning the unknown day is not meant for us today at all.
They are directed to believers who know His coming must be imminent.
We will know it is "near" when we see the signs predicted by prophets.

Amos reveals the moon will turn "blood-red" at noon-time in Israel.
Astrophysics & computer technology prove it occurs here at 5 AM.
Isaiah reveals the sun will darken at "sunrise" and it will in America.

Hosea could point to 2033 because it will be "2 days" after Christ died!
There will be a total Lunar eclipse on the first day of the Feast of Tabs!!
No one knows yet...the 1260-day Endtime will prepare for the last day!!!

My point is that Jesus has no one in mind except those who "know" He is
coming "as a thief" when armies gather to Armageddon and, unlike the Preterists who believe He has already appeared the second time, they will
not be caught naked on that last "Day and Hour" according to Rev.16:15.
Mel