The sign of the son of man

[HankD]

...
Also, I agree with HankD's comments from days gone by that most of us in here believe the same things in regards to salvation and Christianity in general we just differ on eschatology.

And, like Tom I think one of the main benefits for a forum like this is to allow others to try my beliefs and test them and see if they can find problems in my beliefs. I once was a dispensational premillennialist of the first order so a good argument can sway me, but so far I have found nothing but confirmation of my belief in full preterism. I feel so much more comfortable with how the bible comes together now and reinforces itself through out.

Yes , If one allegorizes those scripture which don't fit the system then preterism is a viable option.

e.g.

Matthew 25

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.​

Acts 1
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.​

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.​

Revelation 20
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.​

And many others...

Presumably all this happened at the AD70 "parousia".

Just out of curiosity let me ask again - how does preterism see the end of the material universe since these passages and 2 Peter 3 and several other "last day" passages are not what the natural language indicates?

Will sin and death go on forever since Christ has come and gone and we now dwell in the new heavens and the new earth since according to the scripture there was no place found for the old ones which also Peter says will be dissolved (or were dissolved according to preterism)?

Someone, anyone?

Thanks
HankD

 

[lastday]

Lastday

HankD,

In your discussions with Logos1, please note that he makes statements without giving any evidence to back them up.
His latest, directed to you, assumes that
the Bible does NOT speak of the "end of time":

The bible doesn't say time is ending. The term "last day" should be viewed from the Jewish perspective it was written from--
the last day or last days of the Old Covenant. Not end times or last days of Christianity.

Contrary to this assumption, Daniel was told that "knowledge of the end of time was sealed up until the end of time". Dan.12:4.

Daniel was then given the message that that "end of these wonders would be
fulfilled during a period of 3.5 times"! All these events will be "completed when
the power of the holy people has been shattered"!! Dan.12:7. Daniel was told the final "outcome would occur at the end of time"!!! Dan.12:9.

What is God's purpose at the end of the final 3.5 times, i.e., at the end of time? Daniel was told that "many will be purged, purified and refined;
from the time the regular sacrifice is abolished there would be 1290 days". Finally, the end of time would also be the end of the age". Dan.12:11-13.

Hank, you are asking whether any of this refers to the literal end of time! Logos refuses to even consider that God has revealed the number of days
because he thinks nothing, not even the last day, refers to TIME!!
It is therefore impossible to reason with or make sense to these Preterists!!!
His Quote:

The problem here is the way "last day" is interpreted. It's not the end of time. The bible doesn't say time is ending. The term
"last day" should be
viewed from the Jewish perspective it was written from--the last day or last days of the Old Covenant. Not end times or last days of Christianity.

Please note also that Logos ends the Old Covenant as the "END OF TIME"!
This is an unfair mishandling of the Word by "ending time" at a point in TIME!!
He applies the End of TIME to an Event that occurred at his own "End of Time"!!!
Mel

 

[kyredneck]

......
Just out of curiosity let me ask again - how does preterism see the end of the material universe since these passages and 2 Peter 3 and several other "last day" passages are not what the natural language indicates?.....

Just out of curiousity let me ask again (third time) how the literalist explains this seeming discrepancy:

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished. Mt 5:18

....ye also were made dead to the law........we have been discharged from the law..... Ro 7:4,6

....the old covenant......is done away..... 2 Cor 3:14

....having abolished ......the law of commandments contained in ordinances....... Eph 2:15

 

[RAdam]

And you aren't paying attention to the context. The context concerns whether He was coming to destroy the law. He states He didn't come to destroy it, but to fulfill it. When did Jesus fulfill it? When He died on Calvary, not in 70 AD. What was accomplished in 70 AD were the prophecies concerning the destruction of the city and sanctuary and the scattering of the people.

ETA: And by the way, that law still stands today, and there are still people under it. When Jesus returns from heaven, He will judge people according to that law, and everyone whose sins were not paid for at Calvary by Him will be weighed in the balances and found wanting. Then shall all the wicked be cast into the lake of fire.

 

[kyredneck]

And you aren't paying attention to the context. The context concerns whether He was coming to destroy the law. He states He didn't come to destroy it, but to fulfill it. When did Jesus fulfill it? When He died on Calvary, not in 70 AD. What was accomplished in 70 AD were the prophecies concerning the destruction of the city and sanctuary and the scattering of the people.

He fulfilled it, and then done away with it:

but their minds were hardened: for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remaineth, it not being revealed to them that it is done away in Christ. 2 Cor 2:14

The heaven and earth of the old covenant has been rolled up like a scroll; changed like a garment:

10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of thy hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou continuest: And they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a mantle shalt thou roll them up, As a garment, and they shall be changed: But thou art the same, And thy years shall not fail. Heb 1

The heaven and the earth of the old covenant has been removed:

26 whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more will I make to tremble not the earth only, but also the heaven.
27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that have been made, that those things which are not shaken may remain. Heb 12

ETA: And by the way, that law still stands today, and there are still people under it. When Jesus returns from heaven, He will judge people according to that law, and everyone whose sins were not paid for at Calvary by Him will be weighed in the balances and found wanting. Then shall all the wicked be cast into the lake of fire.

I don't know how much plainer it can get than this:

having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace; Eph 2:15

 

[lastday]

Lastday

kyredneck,
Thanks for this important Scripture:

But their minds were hardened: for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remaineth, it not being revealed to them that it is done away in Christ. 2 Cor 2:14

Hebrews (8:13) and Rom.11:25-26 confirm that Israel/Judah will not realize the Old Covenant has been "done away with"! Not until Messiah comes!! He will come from Zion and rescue the remnant of Jews and Israel "after the flesh"!!!

Israel is "blinded" until God uses the Body of Christ to make them "jealous"!
The blindness of Jews and members of the Ten Tribes will then be removed!!
God's plan for "all nations" cannot be fulfilled until Gentile Times are finished!!!
Mel

 

[HankD]

Just out of curiousity let me ask again (third time) how the literalist explains this seeming discrepancy:

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished. Mt 5:18

....ye also were made dead to the law........we have been discharged from the law..... Ro 7:4,6

....the old covenant......is done away..... 2 Cor 3:14

....having abolished ......the law of commandments contained in ordinances....... Eph 2:15

Greetings kyredneck,

True the law has nothing to say to you and I and all those who are regenerate, who live by faith and are led of the Spirit.

The law however still stands as a standard for unregenerate humanity.

1 Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;​

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.​

When heaven and earth pass away (2 Peter3) and all is accomplished then there will be no more unregenerate flesh and therefor no more need of the law.​

HankD​

 

[kyredneck]

..... and there are still people under it.....

Yea, and their heaven and earth is as iron and brass:

19 And I will break the pride of your power: and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass; Lev 26

23 And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron. Dt 28

 

[kyredneck]

.....

When heaven and earth pass away (2 Peter3) and all is accomplished then there will be no more unregenerate flesh and therefor no more need of the law.​

HankD​

Hank, I've a 15 yr old granddaughter who could research the word 'fire' in a concordance and ascertain what the word is consistently, abundantly used as a metaphor of in the scriptures:

Yea, I will gather you, and blow upon you with the fire of my wrath, and ye shall be melted in the midst thereof. Ezek 22:21

 

[HankD]

Hank, I've a 15 yr old granddaughter who could research the word 'fire' in a concordance and ascertain what the word is consistently, abundantly used as a metaphor of in the scriptures:

Yea, I will gather you, and blow upon you with the fire of my wrath, and ye shall be melted in the midst thereof. Ezek 22:21

I understand kyredneck.

Fire, water and many other elements are used metaphorically in the Scripture.

But not always.

And as a mater of fact, I believe the "fire" of 2 Peter 3 is a "fire" of a higher order than ordinary combustion. I believe it is thermo nuclear fusion and I believe it is how the corruptible (entropy) material universe will be transformed into the "new heavens and new earth".

Still, this does not answer my questions concerning the preterist view of the end of the material universe or the question concerning sin and death. Will sin and death go on forever? Will this world of sin and death ever end?

Is there a scripture that full preterism can point to with an answer?

These are legitimate questions that any Systematic Theology should answer no matter what it calls itself, full or partial preterist, futurist, etc...

Look, I consider you, Tom and Logos1 my brethren in Christ and I look forward to meeting all of you in that place called heaven (if, God willing not before that here on planet earth).

Also, I don't appreciate it when others gloat when anyone is hard put to answer questions. I don't do it myself and I hate to see it from others.

But I would like a preterists' answer to these questions.

Even an "I don't know" will suffice.

Thanks
HankD

 

[asterisktom]

But I would like a preterists' answer to these questions.

Even an "I don't know" will suffice.

Thanks
HankD

I just want to let you know that I have been wanting to get involved on this, but have had serious ISP problems. I only stay on line for a minute or so at a time. Have lost 2 posts already. Repairmen come tomorrow though (fingers crossed)

 

[RAdam]

The children of God are not under the law but under grace. Those who aren't God's children, however, are still under the law. They'll be judged by the law, according to their works, and will be cast into the lake of fire.

 

[RAdam]

Hank, I've a 15 yr old granddaughter who could research the word 'fire' in a concordance and ascertain what the word is consistently, abundantly used as a metaphor of in the scriptures:

Yea, I will gather you, and blow upon you with the fire of my wrath, and ye shall be melted in the midst thereof. Ezek 22:21

Ezekiel was written in highly symbolic language, the language of OT prophecy (the same style used by John in Revelation). 2 Peter 3 was not. It is written in a pretty straightforward, clear style. I don't believe the scoffers are symbolic for something else. He's talking about real people who are questioning the coming of the Lord. (by the way, they look a lot like uniformitarians) You have to really fight hard to not see that the apostle then references the Genesis account of creation and the flood.

 

[lastday]

Lastday

RAdam
You Write:

The children of God are not under the law but under grace. Those who aren't God's children, however, are still under the law. They'll be judged by the law, according to their works, and will be cast into the lake of fire.

Would you please explain to me if the Goat nations that Jesus separates from the Sheep nations will be sent to Hell for lack of faith alone. I know you mean and I agree that, because salvation is by grace through faith alone in this present age, the sole criteria for entering Heaven is that of Faith, not Works.

But once the Body and Bride of Christ is completed, the sins of the Jews who plead for mercy when they see Christ appear will be forgiven because they
KNOW He is their Messiah! In fact ALL men who plead for mercy may be "kept alive" to enter the
earthly Kingdom; but they will not be candidates for the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven at the End of the Millennial Age!! They must however prove their faith and the genuine nature of their worship of God by coming annually to the Jerusalem on earth to be "healed by the leaves of the tree of life"...a part of the evidence that they are true worshipers of the God of Israel!!! Ezek.47:12.

In this age, "many are called and few are chosen". In the Age to Come those who are faithful
live under and prove their faith by worshiping God under a New Covenant [neither the present New Covenant by blood; nor the eternal Davidic Covenant to follow the Millennium]. The number who will inherit the earthly Kingdom forever will become as great as the "sands of the sea and stars of heaven". They will not be part of the Body of Christ nor would there be room for them among the Bride of the Lamb which is the New Jerusalem. That Holy City will be only 1500 square miles over/above the present earth. Earthdwellers will have sufficient square miles for their skyscrapers...and millions of square miles when the New Earth is created and the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven.

But the Kings of the Nations will represent the Sheep Nations on earth...
after the Goat Nations are judged and sent to Hell...and they must keep the "eternal" Davidic Covenant after having "properly treated the least of Christ's brethren in the flesh" during the Millennial Age. They must "bring their honor and glory into
the New Jerusalem, where there is neither day nor night, in order to continue to be healed by the leaves of the Tree of Life". Rev.21:24-26; Rev.22:2,14,
Mel

 

[kyredneck]

......The law however still stands as a standard for unregenerate humanity.......

......Those who aren't God's children, however, are still under the law. They'll be judged by the law.....

For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law; Ro 2:12

Can anyone show me scripture that specifically states that the law of Moses will be the standard used to judge those who were never included in that covenant?

 

[kyredneck]

.....the apostle then references the Genesis account of creation and the flood.

.........and this proves what? Christ refers to the flood and to the destruction of Sodom in reference to 'that generation' that judicially murdered Him:

25 But first must he suffer many things and be rejected of this generation.
26 And as it came to pass in the days of Noah, even so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They ate, they drank, they married, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise even as it came to pass in the days of Lot; they ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 but in the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all Lu 17

 

[RAdam]

.........and this proves what? Christ refers to the flood and to the destruction of Sodom in reference to 'that generation' that judicially murdered Him:

25 But first must he suffer many things and be rejected of this generation.
26 And as it came to pass in the days of Noah, even so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They ate, they drank, they married, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise even as it came to pass in the days of Lot; they ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 but in the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all Lu 17

You are misinterpreting those verses.

 

[kyredneck]

You are misinterpreting those verses.

Please tell how.

 

[RAdam]

Ok.

He begins this part of His discourse by saying:

22 - The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and he shall not see it.
23 - And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
24 - For as the lightening, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; even so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
25 - But first he must suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

Jesus says people are going to claim Messiah has come. I believe Josephus records where there were many charlatans around the Jewish-Roman war claiming these sorts of things and deceiving many. This is also referred to in the Olivet Discourse. Jesus warns His disciples not to believe it. The reason He gives them is, when He returns it will be like the lightening that lightens out of one part of the heaven and shines to the other part. In other words, it will be visible and global. This brings to mind the first chapter of Revelation which says, "behold , he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him." Don't be fooled, says Jesus, you'll know when I return. Then He says, "but first..." That's huge. Before I can return in such a visible way, I must first suffer many things and be rejected of this generation. Then He starts talking about the days of the Son of man, which He previously referred to. By the way, this part is highly similar to the Olivet Discourse as well, only most of these verses came after Jesus talked about AD 70 and began talking about what should come after the tribulation of those days.

 

[kyredneck]

Ok.

He begins this part of His discourse by saying:

22 - The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and he shall not see it.
23 - And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
24 - For as the lightening, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; even so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
25 - But first he must suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

'But first' (v 25) denotes a change in topic, and considering that the next verse (v 26) begins with 'And', there is no reason to believe the allusions to Noah and Sodom are concerning anything else but 'that generation'.

26 And as it came to pass in the days of Noah, even so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.