The place for women in the church, continued...

[Dr. Bob]

Laws (of man or God) are to be obeyed. Authorities, legal/parental/family, are to be obeyed.

IF one sees an unjust/ungodly command, then it is correct to
a) Make an appeal to see if the authority will change
b) Reject it and suffer the consequences

God will sort it out; you may end up eating lentils instead of wine/pork (good result from an appeal) or you may end up in a firey furnace or lion's den.

It is only in the most extreme cases that an "unjust order" should not be obeyed. Often we do not know what the thinking is of those in authority, nor of the plan of God to use what we think of as "unfair" or "evil" to His good.

 

[annsni]

Do we all agree that it is illegitimate to use these Scriptures to attempt to shut up female saints during a church business meeting (which is the scenario described by the person who originally raised this topic)?

As long as she is not in spiritual authority or teaching leadership, then that's fine. I think women will have a LOT to add into the business meetings at church. I know that as a woman, I might have a very different view of things than a man would and I might just be able to solve an issue in a way that someone else might not thought of. I know my hubby (a pastor) seeks my counsel on a lot of things and I've been able to help him a lot.

 

[RAdam]

Do we all agree that it is illegitimate to use these Scriptures to attempt to shut up female saints during a church business meeting (which is the scenario described by the person who originally raised this topic)?

Yes, we do.

 

[Crabtownboy]

As long as she is not in spiritual authority or teaching leadership, then that's fine. I think women will have a LOT to add into the business meetings at church. I know that as a woman, I might have a very different view of things than a man would and I might just be able to solve an issue in a way that someone else might not thought of. I know my hubby (a pastor) seeks my counsel on a lot of things and I've been able to help him a lot.

What do you mean by spiritual authority? I have ask this question a number of time, not just of you, but have never gotten a real answer. I am very curious what is meant by this phrase.

 

[annsni]

What do you mean by spiritual authority? I have ask this question a number of time, not just of you, but have never gotten a real answer. I am very curious what is meant by this phrase.

It comes from Hebrews 13:17 - "Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you."

Pastors have an authority as given by God and will answer to God for what they've done with that authority. They have authority in the leadership of the church and church discipline. Their job is the spiritual health of their church body and as such are in a position of "spiritual authority".

 

[Crabtownboy]

It comes from Hebrews 13:17 - "Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you."

Pastors have an authority as given by God and will answer to God for what they've done with that authority. They have authority in the leadership of the church and church discipline. Their job is the spiritual health of their church body and as such are in a position of "spiritual authority".

I understand, but this still does not get to my question. How is this authority shown? How is it exercised? Does the pastor stand between God and the lay person. [I do not like the terms clergy and laity as I believe that if a person is a Christian they all have their ministries ... but that is another topic.]

I am not arguing, I am very curious on this subject.

 

[annsni]

I understand, but this still does not get to my question. How is this authority shown? How is it exercised? Does the pastor stand between God and the lay person. [I do not like the terms clergy and laity as I believe that if a person is a Christian they all have their ministries ... but that is another topic.]

I am not arguing, I am very curious on this subject.

I can only tell you how it's done practically in our church.

Our pastors teach the Gospel and the Word. They make sure that the church body is able to know the Word on their own. They are taught to study. They are encouraged to seek God.

Additionally, if a pastor sees an issue in a person's life, they approach them as a friend and leader to hopefully bring this issue to the person's attention and disciple them through it to be able to "fix" the issue. This would be issues with relationships in their home, behavior that is opposed to the Word of God - that sort of thing. If need be, they will undertake church discipline.

Another thing the pastor/s do is to pray for the congregation. Daily they are in prayer for everyone in the congregation.

But in no way does the pastor stand between the person and God because we believe in the priesthood of the believer and that each person has individual access to God. But just as a parent is responsible for their child, a pastor is responsible for his congregation.

Does that make sense?

 

[freeatlast]

It is not just about teaching if we want to obey the Lord's word. Neither can a woman hold a position where men are involved and she is over them. That would include committees, choir directors, or any other place where one might direct when men are concerned.

 

[Peggy]

Can you show me this in Scripture?



I agree but does that mean that women can now disregard the directives towards them?

How about I give an example from my own life? My husband was in the process of growing and selling marijuana and I wanted not part of it. Should I have submitted to him and risk going to jail and losing my life and my children? Or should I have said "Yes dear, you're the head"?

Pretty obvious to me that he put his needs first before his concern for his family, wouldn't you say?

 

[freeatlast]

How about I give an example from my own life? My husband was in the process of growing and selling marijuana and I wanted not part of it. Should I have submitted to him and risk going to jail and losing my life and my children? Or should I have said "Yes dear, you're the head"?

Pretty obvious to me that he put his needs first before his concern for his family, wouldn't you say?

I assume you are saying that you were saved and he was lost. It does raise some other questions such as were you saved when you got married and if so why did you marry him? If you were saved then how can you expect him to lead any other way except in sin? If a person marries an unbeliever they enter into rebellion. I hope this was not the case. That being said Scripture says that the woman is to submit to her husband even as unto the Lord. The Lord does not lead into sin and neither should a woman follow her husband in such, but may I add some caution here. She better be ever so sure that what her husband is leading her in is sin before she refuses. In the case you gave it clearly was.

 

[abcgrad94]

It is not just about teaching if we want to obey the Lord's word. Neither can a woman hold a position where men are involved and she is over them. That would include committees, choir directors, or any other place where one might direct when men are concerned.

How does a woman on a committee have any spiritual authority over a man? A choir director leads the music. How on earth can that be taken as usurping spiritual authority over any men who might be singing?

Free, it sounds like you don't want women to even have a voice in what goes on in the church.

 

[jaigner]

It is not just about teaching if we want to obey the Lord's word. Neither can a woman hold a position where men are involved and she is over them. That would include committees, choir directors, or any other place where one might direct when men are concerned.

Even if you believe that women are to be subservient, which I don't, there is nothing to prevent her from serving on a committee or as a choir/music director. Those are more administrative in nature.

 

[RAdam]

How about I give an example from my own life? My husband was in the process of growing and selling marijuana and I wanted not part of it. Should I have submitted to him and risk going to jail and losing my life and my children? Or should I have said "Yes dear, you're the head"?

Pretty obvious to me that he put his needs first before his concern for his family, wouldn't you say?

I don't think people understand what the bible means by being in submission to the husband. It does not mean that you blindly follow him whithersoever he goes. Someone else brought up a scenario where the husband gets the family lost on the way to the beach. What these arguments show is not only a misunderstanding of the bible teaching on the subject but also a resistance to that teaching, thus the bringing up of these kinds of scenarios.

I think the most important portion of those instructions in the scriptures is the portion that concerns the husband/men. For, says Paul, the husband is to emulate the Lord Jesus Christ in His great love for His church. Does Christ ever lead His church astray? Does He ever put them in danger? Does He ever not have their welfare in His mind? It's obvious that Christ always provides the greatest of leadership and shows the greatest of care for His church. Men are to emulate that with their wives. If I am doing something to put my wife in danger, I am not emulating Christ. If I abuse,take advantage of, or otherwise mistreat my wife, I am not emulating Christ. If I strive my hardest to love my wife in like manner as Christ does His church, then my wife will have an easy time submitting unto my leadership. Why? Because I am providing good leadership and she knows I have her welfare in my mind and will not lead her onto a bad path that could put her in danger. If I am not doing those things, she is going to have a hard time following and trusting me.

The thrust of those verses falls on the men. Men are commanded to take a godly leadership role in the church and at home. Where men fail to do this it is to their great shame. If I look at a church that is being lead by the women, I don't blame them - I blame the men. It is their fault for not stepping up and emulating Christ. Same thing with a marriage. By the way: when I say men should step up I do not mean they should put the women down. What I mean is, if they will step up and provide consistently godly leadership, then the church and the marriage can function as it should. The trouble occurs when they do not do as they ought.

Your husband was at fault for not doing what he should have been doing. No, you shouldn't blindly follow him. It is well known that people follow good leadership, and don't follow bad leadership.

 

[annsni]

How about I give an example from my own life? My husband was in the process of growing and selling marijuana and I wanted not part of it. Should I have submitted to him and risk going to jail and losing my life and my children? Or should I have said "Yes dear, you're the head"?

Pretty obvious to me that he put his needs first before his concern for his family, wouldn't you say?

I understand but you said that a woman is not required to submit to her husband in certain circumstances and I was just wondering where that was in Scripture. Yes, we are required to submit to our husbands but I do believe that there are times that we must go against that directive. Is it right in God's eyes? I don't know but I'll be comfortable dealing with that later with Him.

I do agree that when a husband is wanting his wife to sin that we must draw a line but I don't see that directive in Scripture so we can't say that a woman is not required to follow God in this. We need to be careful what we say is required and what is not so that we are not speaking where Scripture doesn't.

 

[freeatlast]

How does a woman on a committee have any spiritual authority over a man? A choir director leads the music. How on earth can that be taken as usurping spiritual authority over any men who might be singing?

Free, it sounds like you don't want women to even have a voice in what goes on in the church.

Leading in anything requires authority. It may be of no great manner as in the military or a boss at work but it is still authority to direct or lead and that is the intent of the command in scripture. No woman is to have a position of leading, or directing where men are involved. The example is from the creation and the event in the garden when Eve gave to her husband the fruit to eat. There is no evidence that she ordered him but she did lead and that was sin. The same is today. No woman is to hold any position where she might lead a man even in something like a choir or committee. She is to have the demeanor of silence. Now that should set off a firestorm! :laugh:

 

[freeatlast]

Even if you believe that women are to be subservient, which I don't, there is nothing to prevent her from serving on a committee or as a choir/music director. Those are more administrative in nature.

I see that you used the word subservient (useful in an inferior capacity : subordinate ). It nerver seizes to amaze me when someone is at odds with God's word they try and add to it or twist it to hold to their rebellion. The scripture never says that a woman is subservient in her submission. She is not inferior!. She is to obey out of love as is the man in his calling. I did not mean to suggest that a woman could not serve on a committee. I meant to say she could not hold the position of chair on a committee if men were on the same committee.

 

[freeatlast]

I understand but you said that a woman is not required to submit to her husband in certain circumstances and I was just wondering where that was in Scripture. Yes, we are required to submit to our husbands but I do believe that there are times that we must go against that directive. Is it right in God's eyes? I don't know but I'll be comfortable dealing with that later with Him.

I do agree that when a husband is wanting his wife to sin that we must draw a line but I don't see that directive in Scripture so we can't say that a woman is not required to follow God in this. We need to be careful what we say is required and what is not so that we are not speaking where Scripture doesn't.

That was well put. :thumbsup:

 

[abcgrad94]

Leading in anything requires authority. It may be of no great manner as in the military or a boss at work but it is still authority to direct or lead and that is the intent of the command in scripture. No woman is to have a position of leading, or directing where men are involved. The example is from the creation and the event in the garden when Eve gave to her husband the fruit to eat. There is no evidence that she ordered him but she did lead and that was sin. The same is today. No woman is to hold any position where she might lead a man even in something like a choir or committee. She is to have the demeanor of silence. Now that should set off a firestorm! :laugh:

Then according to your definition, women should have no say in anything at church if men are present. I guess this means the men should be in charge of the pot luck dinners and table decorations and how and where the tables are set. We can't have the men asking women where to set the food. Oh, and I guess I as the church pianist should not be allowed to pick out the congregational hymns as that is telling the men what to sing. Wait a minute, maybe I shouldn't even play the piano at church because after all, the men are following the music and I'm making the music. Wow! I'm so honored to even be able to attend service next to those wonderful MEN.:BangHead:

 

[freeatlast]

Then according to your definition, women should have no say in anything at church if men are present. I guess this means the men should be in charge of the pot luck dinners and table decorations and how and where the tables are set. We can't have the men asking women where to set the food. Oh, and I guess I as the church pianist should not be allowed to pick out the congregational hymns as that is telling the men what to sing. Wait a minute, maybe I shouldn't even play the piano at church because after all, the men are following the music and I'm making the music. Wow! I'm so honored to even be able to attend service next to those wonderful MEN.:BangHead:

I see these type of arguments all the time. It is simply an attempt cause more rebellion, not seek obedience to the Lord. So I understand your rebellion. It is common today, but the fact remains that a woman is not permitted to have any authority over or teach a man in what relates to leading or governing the church. You might want to complain to the Lord, but my guess is that He will not change His mind. By the way it is not my definition, it is the Lord's command. I realize that He is not very popular in the church today but the fact remains it is His command.
As for the church pot luck I would assume that these things would be a blessing, not a burden as you seem to suggest. The pot luck is not about leadership of the church. Lead the women in the pot luck and let the men set where they want. Simple! As for picking songs and playing them as long as it is not a leadership position it is OK. The song director should however be male and if he decides to pick the music the woman should submit.

 

[thebuzzard]

I don't think people understand what the bible means by being in submission to the husband. It does not mean that you blindly follow him whithersoever he goes. Someone else brought up a scenario where the husband gets the family lost on the way to the beach. What these arguments show is not only a misunderstanding of the bible teaching on the subject but also a resistance to that teaching, thus the bringing up of these kinds of scenarios.

I think the most important portion of those instructions in the scriptures is the portion that concerns the husband/men. For, says Paul, the husband is to emulate the Lord Jesus Christ in His great love for His church. Does Christ ever lead His church astray? Does He ever put them in danger? Does He ever not have their welfare in His mind? It's obvious that Christ always provides the greatest of leadership and shows the greatest of care for His church. Men are to emulate that with their wives. If I am doing something to put my wife in danger, I am not emulating Christ. If I abuse,take advantage of, or otherwise mistreat my wife, I am not emulating Christ. If I strive my hardest to love my wife in like manner as Christ does His church, then my wife will have an easy time submitting unto my leadership. Why? Because I am providing good leadership and she knows I have her welfare in my mind and will not lead her onto a bad path that could put her in danger. If I am not doing those things, she is going to have a hard time following and trusting me.

The thrust of those verses falls on the men. Men are commanded to take a godly leadership role in the church and at home. Where men fail to do this it is to their great shame. If I look at a church that is being lead by the women, I don't blame them - I blame the men. It is their fault for not stepping up and emulating Christ. Same thing with a marriage. By the way: when I say men should step up I do not mean they should put the women down. What I mean is, if they will step up and provide consistently godly leadership, then the church and the marriage can function as it should. The trouble occurs when they do not do as they ought.

Your husband was at fault for not doing what he should have been doing. No, you shouldn't blindly follow him. It is well known that people follow good leadership, and don't follow bad leadership.

Very well stated.