The place for women in the Church, volume 3...

[Alive in Christ]

Well, it got closed again.



TinyTim posted...

Freeatlast, Just curious.. how many women are you a leader of?

Are you a pastor, deacon, or what office do you hold in church?

And if you were around when Philip's daughters were prophesying, what would you have said?

OR if you were around when Deborah was a judge, would you have told her she was against God?

You seem to think that anyone that disagrees with your assessment and opinion of that particular passage is automatically against God.

I disagree with you, and I am not against God. I have just seen God use many women in leadership roles inside our church, inside our association (YES, we even have a woman moderator for our association!!!).. and inside our denomination. (uh oh, have I mentioned that a woman is the president of the West Virginia Baptist Convention every fourth yr?) It is very evident that God uses women to lead. We witness this by the fruit that is being brought forth for the glory of God.

Paul was addressing a problem within that particular setting. The overall principle is that women were uneducated, and in that society were property of the man. As such, if they were to teach, it would have been a problem.

I see a much bigger problem in today's time... It is one that doesn't depend on Gender.
It is this...

UNeducated preachers and teachers in the church that have never learned how to use proper hermeneutics, and they try to stand and teach "truths" that are actually their opinions of what they believe. They try to force 1st century culture onto a 21st century church. Or worse yet, they think their southern USA culture is the norm for all of Christianity. Many are well meaning, but are ignorant to the fact that God is a God of diversity, and there are many great congregations, that Love the Lord, and are glorifying Him around the world. And yes, some even have women pastors, teachers, etc. I have set under some, and I have to say, they are much smarter than people who come on here with their uneducated opinions.

I start Seminary this month for a M.Div. and I am happy to say that I will be having women teaching some classes... They are qualified, and educated in this society, (unlike the 1st century)... And I expect to gain from their knowledge of ministry.

Good post, Tinytim :wavey:

 

[Alive in Christ]

By the way, why does this thread keep getting "closed" after 10 pages, when other threads are allowed to go wayyyyy past 10 pages?

I'm not in the least bit mad about it, just curious.

 

[tinytim]

I wanted to post this on the last thread that got closed, but while I was typing this response up, it got closed... (My life story I guess... LOL)... any way, here is what I was posting when it got closed...

Thank you Archangel for you kindly pointing out what you believe are my errors...
I choose to disagree with you.

The Seminary I am going to is Palmer Theological Seminary in Philly... (Actually I will be attending the WV campus).. and yes, it is probably more liberal than most here like. Oh well. (It is part of the American Baptist Churches USA)

I guess the fact that I feel at home in the ABC/USA instead of SBC makes a difference also.

Just because Christians disagree over women pastors does not mean there are not good Christians on both sides. By declaring that a church that has a woman pastor is unbiblical is an opinion...

BTW.. I was raised to believe that a woman shouldn't pastor a church, or have leadership, or even be able to talk in church AT ALL... including business meetings.
I was raised that only the men could come around the altar for prayer, the women set in submission, making sure the children were taken care of.. .and if the woman missed something because of a crying baby, she was to ask her man at home.

She was to wear dresses, keep her mouth shut in submission, and NEVER work outside the home. If she had an opinion, or thought, she was to keep it to herself, after all, God only spoke to the men!

I thank God that when I joined a church in the ABC/USA 20 yrs ago, I quickly learned the value of grace and freedom in Christ, and that even women are spiritually gifted equal with men. I learned what it meant that in Christ there are neither male or female.

I did not mean that anyone that disagrees with me on this is uneducated. (BTW, I am not talking about degrees, because I have met some very educated people that didn't even graduate high school!... I may not have a M.div yet.. but I am educated, just ask anyone that I have taught college level classes to) I have some very educated friends on this board and elsewhere that disagrees with me.. .

For instance, ABC and her husband disagrees with me, and I have no closer friends than them, and consider him to be very educated (lol... notice ABC, I left you out!!!! hahaha.. just jokin... she is pretty smart for being from Kentucky! LOLOL)

I also want to make it clear, I am not advocating women pastors.. I have worked well beside them, and their churches are flourishing, and people are being saved and discipled.. so I am still in the air about that one. The question I am asking myself is this: is my cultural upbringing keeping me from accepting women pastors as legitimate, or is it really I want to take a theological stand on? I would encourage everyone to examine your beliefs and determine if they are there because of what you were culturally brought up with, or are they there because they are consistent with the whole council of scripture (Not just some prooftext, like this thread is built upon.)

I usually don't get pulled into this type of debate, but freeatlast sounds like the very people I was raised with... and I guess I am reacting to the type of nonsense I saw as a child and teen.. the type of bigotry that existed toward women then by making them inferior to men burns a hole in my saddle when I am confronted with it again here in the 21st century.

I guess my stance right now is this.. If a woman believes God is calling her to preach or pastor, she had better obey God. That doesn't mean I am called to listen, or approve of her calling.

As for all other roles in a church, I have absolutely NO hesitation approving a woman, because I see biblical examples of women in leadership roles. Yes, even Deacons.. (Phoebe)...

And did I mention that all these male dominated churches I was raise in was what I call
Dysfunctional Fundamental Baptist churches.. .
They all had major problems, and some don't exist anymore... I wonder why?

Now will someone tell me how to explain away Philip's daughters prophesying?
Or if this wasn't cultural, and it dates back to Eden, then why did God approve of Deborah being the leader of Israel.. shouldn't the same logic apply there... she should have been under the headship of a man, if the sole reason is what happened in Eden.

I still believe this passage was cultural to the Ephesians (Where Timothy was pastor).. as was the passages to the Corinthian women...
Since both were Roman cities, it was a reaction to Roman culture.

That's my take on in... and unless someone specifically asks me a question, or mentions something in my post, I am through with this thread. I have to go study some books of Spiritual disciplines (oooops... one is written by a woman!!!... uh oh)

I just want to say that I respect all of your opinions.. even though they may differ from mine, and I am always right.... (LOL... just ask my wife.. I trained her to agree with me!..NOT)

 

[Alive in Christ]

BTW.. I was raised to believe that a woman shouldn't pastor a church, or have leadership, or even be able to talk in church AT ALL... including business meetings.
I was raised that only the men could come around the altar for prayer, the women set in submission, making sure the children were taken care of.. .and if the woman missed something because of a crying baby, she was to ask her man at home.

She was to wear dresses, keep her mouth shut in submission, and NEVER work outside the home. If she had an opinion, or thought, she was to keep it to herself, after all, God only spoke to the men!

God have mercy.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Threads are supposed to be "mercifully" closed at 10 pages. Some get past the moderators/administrators because we don't read them.

99% of those past 10 pages get into name calling, minutia, he-said-she-said, etc. Closing them is for the benefit of all.

If I could close this one at 1 page, I would. There was nothing new added in 10 pages of the second "volume" and can see some real animosity building. Guess I will just wait until this one hits 10 pages and someone notifies of the limit reached. I won't waste time reading it.

TTFN

 

[Tom Butler]

freeatlast posted this in the other thread before it was closed.

Tom,
A woman certainly can be on a committee as long as she is not the chair of that committee if men are on it, or is on one that has been given authority to make a final decision on a matter or even on one that is setting church by-laws or polity. Keeo in minde that the passage in Tim also says to be silent. The idea is that the men are the ones who are to do all leading and policy making which is leading. As to you being in rebellion the answer would be yes if you promoted or encouraged a woman to violate God's command in 1Tim.
You mentioned this;
"The church I serve is quite conservative, inerrantist, Bible-believing. As far as I can tell, not a single member of our church disagrees with my position."

I am not trying to be smart here, but I would really be surprised that it is true. Most Baptist churches claim the same thing and it simply is not true. The church I attend makes the same claim, and is conservative based on other churches, but when placed against the bible it is moderate to liberal in action. So words/clasims today mean very little since we are in postmodernism and I am convince full blown into the falling away. The Laodicean Church thought they were conservative, but they were actually luke warm (putrid). Yes you might be conservative in relation to other churches, but in comparison to the bible I seriously doubt it. However if I am wrong I would love to visit because if true it would be a blessed welcome to what I am seeing today.

Our pastor and deacons are all men, and that's not likely to change.

Women chair the Decorating Committee and Kitchen Committee and Lord's Supper Committee and that's not likely to change either. The Decorating and Kitchen committees are uniquely suited to their gifts and talents.

Women pray in our church services and other congregational gatherings (such as fellowship meals). The same Paul who told the Corinthian women to shut up in church (14:34) also told the women not to pray in church with their heads uncovered (11:4-5) I think the admonition to keep silent is related to the prohibition against teaching men in the Corinthian church, and their abuse of tongues.

Regarding my claim that I know of no one in our church who disagrees with women serving on committees, which you doubted, it is possible that you are right. If there are dissenters, they have not made their disagreement publicly to the church or privately to me.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Dr. Bob...

Thanks for the explanation.

:wavey:

 

[Dr. Bob]

Dr. Bob...

Thanks for the explanation.

And TinyTim needed a place to respond (when the previous thread hit 10 pages and was closed before he could post the message he'd composed) and you did him a service by starting a third thread.

 

[tinytim]

Yes, thanks.

 

[Jerome]

Or if this wasn't cultural, and it dates back to Eden, then why did God approve of Deborah being the leader of Israel

Good question.

And if it is not cultural, and it dates back to Eden, why is this "male headship" mandate limited to church, as many here claim?

 

[freeatlast]

Good question.

And if it is not cultural, and it dates back to Eden, why is this "male headship" mandate limited to church, as many here claim?

The reason this is limited in this passage is because in the home is covered in other places. Eph. is one. When a heart is filled with rebellion the rebellious person does all that they can to justify their sin. One claim is that a passage is cultural. Another is to call a position not one of leadership but of service.

 

[Jerome]

As tinytim has noted, Paul's statement about women's silence in I Tim. 2:12 is not qualified.

Some seem to want to add "at church" or "in church services (except not Sunday School or Wednesdays or business meetings or committee meetings)" or who knows what other convoluted qualification to limit its application.

Others morph teach into "preach (in an open service)" or "be an elder".

Another way they limit the passage is to change "man" into "adult men while at church", etc.

Paul's instruction was simple, why add all these caveats?

And why limit this male headship theory to just church and home? If it originated from Eden, isn't its application universal?

 

[Spinach]

I read all three threads in one sitting; do I get a cookie?

I read everyone's thoughts and I found myself agreeing with RAdam on more than one occasion.

I do believe that the husband is the head of the wife. I also believe that a woman has a place in the church. No, she should not interrupt the Pastor to ask a question. No, she should not stand in position of authority. However, when the floor is granted her, she has every right to speak. She has value in the church. She can pull up a chair at the table and know that this place is just for her---she is welcomed.

My husband has delegated certain things to me (mostly financial----he is involved, but lacks time, so I handle it). It can be the same in the church.

Society has defined roles. It really doesn't have to be that way.

And, Ann, I have worn the godly woman uniform in my day, and let me tell you, I have been set free! What a relief!

I stand in the liberty that Jesus gave me when He set me free!!!

 

[Amy.G]

I have a question. What if my (male) pastor asks me to teach a class consisting of both men and women? I would be under the authority of the pastor. Would that be acceptable?

 

[freeatlast]

I have a question. What if my (male) pastor asks me to teach a class consisting of both men and women? I would be under the authority of the pastor. Would that be acceptable?

Amy choose the authority of God and not a rebellious Pastor. You have a clear word from God. Believe it! Don't try and fix it or change it. Don't trust any man who tries to over ride God's word with parlor tricks because this is how satan works by trying to make people believe that God does not mean what He says. The scripture does not say:
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence (unless she or some Pastor can figure a way around it.) Don't fall to the garden temptation, becoming Eve, and the rebellion of these false teachers today.

 

[stilllearning]

Hi Bob

Threads like this may seem like a big waste of time, but they are not.

Here at the BB, we are dealing with people; And sometimes it takes a while, to get through our hardheadedness(myself included).
Thus, threads like this are very important.
--------------------------------------------------
Hello Tim

You said.......

“Just because Christians disagree over women pastors does not mean there are not good Christians on both sides. By declaring that a church that has a woman pastor is unbiblical is an opinion...”

At what point, does the plain teaching of God’s Word, became a fact?

Is it just my opinion that Baptism must be by immersion, or that today’s tongues speaking is heresy, etc.

At some point, people need to simply admit that the Bible means what it says and says what it means.
--------------------------------------------------
I remember back before I learned better, trying to convince a Pentecostal, that they were simply “disregarding God’s Word”, by standing their ground about tongues.

But there was something in them, that caused them to refuse to see the truth.

If nothing else, a thread like this, might catch someone, before they get too set in their ways.
--------------------------------------------------
As for the statement........

“....does not mean there are not good Christians on both sides.....”

I look forward to the day, that we are all on the same side! (God’s side)

 

[Alive in Christ]

Spinach...

"And, Ann, I have worn the godly woman uniform in my day, and let me tell you, I have been set free! What a relief!

I stand in the liberty that Jesus gave me when He set me free!!!

Good for you!

I have no doubt God is pleased.

 

[SaggyWoman]

Yes, thanks.

Personally, TinyTim, I think you should be silent at the BB.

 

[tinytim]

Personally, TinyTim, I think you should be silent at the BB.

Not a chance!!! :laugh:
:tongue3:

 

[canadyjd]

Now will someone tell me how to explain away Philip's daughters prophesying?

How does Philip's daughters prophesying make them leaders of the church?

Or if this wasn't cultural, and it dates back to Eden, then why did God approve of Deborah being the leader of Israel.. shouldn't the same logic apply there... she should have been under the headship of a man, if the sole reason is what happened in Eden.

Brother, the passage from I Tim. is clear, there are no "if's" about it. Paul makes the argument for male leadership in the church (yes, he is specifically talking about the church and the Christian home) by referencing scripture (Gen.) and the creation.

You may have a case for "cultural" influence in the I Cor. passage, but not I Tim.

If you will read the passage from Judges 4, you will see that Barak the son of Abinoam was the leader of Israel. Deborah was a judge, but clearly understood that Barak was the leader of Israel... and even chastises Barak for wanting a woman to go with him into battle. So, yes, Deborah was under the headship of her husband (she is called the "wife of Lappidoth) and recognized the leadership of Barak.

peace to youraying: