What can unregenerate man do?

[Allan]

Yea, this is good input. Every sinner is not as evil as he can be. Every sinner could be Hitler. Every sinner would be as evil as Hitler given the right opportunities.

If not, why did Hitler do what he did? Was he more depraved than the rest of us?

But that unregenerate man does good is not true. God defines what good is and good is that which glorifies God. The motive must be to glorify and please God or the deed CANNOT be good. The deed is idolatrous.

To the corrupt and defiled NOTHING IS PURE.

There are a couple of things that can be addressed.. but one specifically that seems to have not been.. Faith is NOT a work according to Paul in Romans 4:2-5.

Therefore if one will place faith in Christ it is not a 'good work' for or unto God.

Other interesting verses (especially in the Greek) by various authors states rather emphatically we were not made alive FIRST, because to be alive, according to scripture means we are/HAVE TO BE, in Christ Jesus. So if we are 'in' darkness when our eyes are opened.. then we were not in Christ and thus not alive. Yet that is just what Acts 28:16 says:
Act 26:18 To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
NOTE: Sanctification or being 'set apart' comes AFTER Faith.

Another from John instead of Luke:
Jhn 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. "

He came as a light in the world (to unregenerate lost men) that they might believe and no longer abide IN darkness. They are IN darkness. If they have life then they ALREADY have and are IN the light. You CAN NOT have spiritual life and no light in relation to Christ.

And another from Paul himself:
1 Cor 7:22 For those who were slaves when called to faith in the Lord are the Lord's freed people"
NOTE: They were slaves 'when' called. The Greek bears this out more clearly.. basically put - they were still in chains when God called them to faith, not that they were set free.. then called.

...and other passages as well.

Sorry.. but it is to hard to get around scriptures that continuously contradict the whole idea of dead being wooden literal when speaking in a spiritual context.

At least that is my take on the subject.

 

[Luke2427]

Uh...you're not doing very well because I didn't say any of that. :laugh:

I said Jack exchanged the truth of God for a lie. He was full of pride. He thought he could "good work" himself to heaven.

I know.:smilewinkgrin: I responded to that post.

But you never responded to my response. I asked, "Why?"

Why does John not exchange the truth of God for a lie and Jack does?

Since you didn't respond to that I tried to spur this along. It is taking a while to get this thing going, isn't it?

 

[jbh28]

Yea, this stuff is for another thread. Winman should start one that says, "Is man born with a sin nature."

But that has nothing to do with, "What can unregenerate man do?"

Whether he was alive and died or he was born dead, the point of the thread is that he is dead. Now what can he do?

Ok, didn't mean to continue the high-jack.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Uh...you're not doing very well because I didn't say any of that. :laugh:

I said Jack exchanged the truth of God for a lie. He was full of pride. He thought he could "good work" himself to heaven.

Amy, you folks are going to have him taking shots in the back room pretty soon....lol

 

[Amy.G]

I know.:smilewinkgrin: I responded to that post.

But you never responded to my response. I asked, "Why?"

Why does John not exchange the truth of God for a lie and Jack does?

Since you didn't respond to that I tried to spur this along. It is taking a while to get this thing going, isn't it?

Ah. Well, I'm not going to be able to give you an answer that will satisfy you. I do not know why Jack is a Jerk. You will have to get into Jack's brain. I just know what the bible says about why people reject God.
Every man has an opportunity to believe God, beginning with His witness in creation. As Paul said, "you must believe that God is before you can come to Him."

 

[Amy.G]

Amy, you folks are going to have him taking shots in the back room pretty soon....lol

HA! That's what makes it fun right? :tongue3:

Drive your opponent crazy!

 

[Allan]

HA! That's what makes it fun right? :tongue3:

Drive your opponent crazy!

Hello Amy

 

[Luke2427]

There are a couple of things that can be addressed.. but one specifically that seems to have not been.. Faith is NOT a work according to Paul in Romans 4:2-5.

Very good input. And I agree one hundred percent that faith is not a work.

Therefore if one will place faith in Christ it is not a 'good work' for or unto God.

Right.

Other interesting verses (especially in the Greek) by various authors states rather emphatically we were not made alive FIRST, because to be alive, according to scripture means we are/HAVE TO BE, in Christ Jesus. So if we are 'in' darkness when our eyes are opened.. then we were not in Christ and thus not alive. Yet that is just what Acts 28:16 says:
Act 26:18 To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Yes, but this verse teaches regeneration before faith, not the other way around.

The first thing in this chronology was "to open their eyes"- this is regeneration.

Forgiveness of sins takes place after regeneration since they have already had their eyes opened, been turned from darkness to light, from the power of Satan unto God- If this is not regeneration, pray tell what is??- then they receive forgiveness.

Faith is literally the last thing mentioned. I actually wish I had thought of this verse to prove my supposition. It does so marvelously, doesn't it?

Another from John instead of Luke:
Jhn 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. "

Statement of fact. Those who believe in Chris do not, cannot, will not ever abide in darkness.

No problems here at all. This simply confirms security. It does not really address the chronology of salvation at all.

He came as a light in the world (to unregenerate lost men) that they might believe and no longer abide IN darkness. They are IN darkness. If they have life then they ALREADY have and are IN the light. You CAN NOT have spiritual life and no light in relation to Christ.

The light gives life (John 1). Of course the problem is this:

"This is the judgment: the light is come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their WORKS were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light...

And another from Paul himself:
1 Cor 7:22 For those who were slaves when called to faith in the Lord are the Lord's freed people"

Once again, we see the call making alive. The call is to faith but it is an effectual call. Just as Lazarus would never have come forth, never have answered the call had the call itself not first made him alive.

His words are life according to the Scripture.

These verses literally support the supposition that regeneration precedes faith.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Luke with all due respect this is 2nd string ......you havent seen 1st string yet. your not teaching college kids. These folks are here for a reason....you need to be on your A game. :tonofbricks:

Marine saying.....That which doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

 

[Luke2427]

Hello Amy

This is highly possible. But that's for another thread, dear brother! :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Luke2427]

Ah. Well, I'm not going to be able to give you an answer that will satisfy you. I do not know why Jack is a Jerk. You will have to get into Jack's brain. I just know what the bible says about why people reject God.
Every man has an opportunity to believe God, beginning with His witness in creation. As Paul said, "you must believe that God is before you can come to Him."

This is really a pretty simple question.

Don't worry about the names, Amy. John is anybody who does get saved. Jack is anybody who does not.

There really are only a couple of answers.

John is less depraved or wiser than Jack.

Or God chose John by His grace.

 

[Luke2427]

This is really a pretty simple question.

Don't worry about the names, Amy. John is anybody who does get saved. Jack is anybody who does not.

There really are only a couple of answers.

John is less depraved or wiser than Jack.

Or God chose John by His grace.

And even if John is less deprave or wiser- you still come down to this:

Why is John less depraved and wiser? Who made him that way? Did not God?

Doesn't that mean that God is the one who fully controls who gets saved and who stays lost?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Isaiah 40:28-31

 

[Luke2427]

Isaiah 40:28-31

Wonderful classic passage. I am not sure of how you intend its application in this discussion.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Wonderful classic passage. I am not sure of how you intend its application in this discussion.

Yes it is isnt it....reminds me of Chariots of Fire. But thats another time, great inspirational scripture though brother, dont you think...lol

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

So those are the elect then! Those provided with Grace like john & those are the non-elect...IE Jackie.....one goes to heaven & one to Hell...Hmmmm

 

[Allan]

Yes, but this verse teaches regeneration before faith, not the other way around.

My dear sir.. no it doesn't.
Regeneration, according to the reformed view is to make one alive.. and if one is alive, according to scripture, they are in Christ. And if IN Christ, they can not be in darkness for in God there is NO darkness.

Unless you have a new definition of regeneration?

The first thing in this chronology was "to open their eyes"- this is regeneration.

According to scripture.. the only two places where regeneration is described neither yield themselves to your view.
In the most simplest passage of scripture that describes regeneration in the context it is used both times in scripture can be seen in 2 Cor 5:17.
2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

IN CHRIST.. you are a new creation.. Old things are passed away (meaning are no more, gone) behold all things have become new (without taint or stain).

This is impossible according to scripture without being in Christ and if in Christ, one is not in darkness nor are they slaves being called out.

Faith is literally the last thing mentioned. I actually wish I had thought of this verse to prove my supposition. It does so marvelously, doesn't it?

Unfortunately, the meaning contradicts your very notion of being dead and scriptures definition of being alive.

Statement of fact. Those who believe in Chris do not, cannot, will not ever abide in darkness.

Yes.. that that is NOT what the scripture itself is saying.. Good try though.
It says plainly, "...that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness ".

Statement of Fact: Those who believe will not STAY in darkness.
NOTE.. will not stay IN.. if they believe.. thus when they believed.. where were they?

No problems here at all. This simply confirms security. It does not really address the chronology of salvation at all.

Yes.. my friend.. it does

Once again, we see the call making alive. The call is to faith but it is an effectual call. Just as Lazarus would never have come forth, never have answered the call had the call itself not first made him alive.

Hmmm... I didn't see anything about 'effectual calling'.. what translation are you using?

However no non-cal disagrees that no man will know or come to God unless God call to him.. we just disagree that scripture implies there is any such thing as a effectual calling for some and a false calling to others. When God calls.. He calls.. the same way to all men to whom He sends it. We differ in mechanics on how it operates, true, but not in what it is sent out to accomplish.

The call is the same to all.. but it will affect those for whom it was designed (those of faith) in a positive way and others in a negative but it is sent to all in the same manner and power. Opening their eyes.. to either receive truth.. or trade it for a lie.

His words are life according to the Scripture.

Of course they do.. and they must be received in order to HAVE life.

These verses literally support the supposition that regeneration precedes faith.

I think you better recheck the English and also the Greek once again.

 

[Luke2427]

So those are the elect then! Those provided with Grace like john & those are the non-elect...IE Jackie.....one goes to heaven & one to Hell...Hmmmm

That's it. God's saving grace makes the difference, doesn't it?

 

[Luke2427]

My dear sir.. no it doesn't.
Regeneration, according to the reformed view is to make one alive.. and if one is alive, according to scripture, they are in Christ. And if IN Christ, they can not be in darkness for in God there is NO darkness.

Unless you have a new definition of regeneration?


According to scripture.. the only two places where regeneration is described neither yield themselves to your view.
In the most simplest passage of scripture that describes regeneration in the context it is used both times in scripture can be seen in 2 Cor 5:17.
2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

IN CHRIST.. you are a new creation.. Old things are passed away (meaning are no more, gone) behold all things have become new (without taint or stain).

This is impossible according to scripture without being in Christ and if in Christ, one is not in darkness nor are they slaves being called out.


Unfortunately, the meaning contradicts your very notion of being dead and scriptures definition of being alive.


Yes.. that that is NOT what the scripture itself is saying.. Good try though.
It says plainly, "...that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness ".

Statement of Fact: Those who believe will not STAY in darkness.
NOTE.. will not stay IN.. if they believe.. thus when they believed.. where were they?


Yes.. my friend.. it does


Hmmm... I didn't see anything about 'effectual calling'.. what translation are you using?

However no non-cal disagrees that no man will know or come to God unless God call to him.. we just disagree that scripture implies there is any such thing as a effectual calling for some and a false calling to others. When God calls.. He calls.. the same way to all men to whom He sends it. We differ in mechanics on how it operates, true, but not in what it is sent out to accomplish.

The call is the same to all.. but it will affect those for whom it was designed (those of faith) in a positive way and others in a negative but it is sent to all in the same manner and power. Opening their eyes.. to either receive truth.. or trade it for a lie.


Of course they do.. and they must be received in order to HAVE life.


I think you better recheck the English and also the Greek once again.

You and I are not on the same page so there's no point in exchanging until we do.

What is your point about "in darkness" and "in Christ"?

 

[Luke2427]

What some count unregenerate man's goodness Edwards addresses marvelously in the quote below:

God is graciously pleased to restrain the wickedness of men, principally by fear and respect to their credit and reputation, and by education. And if it were not for such restraints as these, there is no kind of wickedness that men would not commit, whenever it came in their way.