What can unregenerate man do?

[michael-acts17:11]

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men unto me.

The Spirit draws ALL men who hear the gospel. Therefore, it is incumbent upon the hearer to accept or reject Christ. If it were just a matter of God choosing some over others, there would be no need for Spiritual conviction; He would just declare the "elect" to be saved. The logical conclusion to Calvinistic thought is the exclusion of the need for belief on the part of man, which contradicts many passages of Scripture.

The elect describes all who believe. Predestination is based in foreknowledge of who will believe. FYI, the Greek word for "will draw" means to drag. The Spirit drags on the hearts of ALL who hear.

 

[freeatlast]

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men unto me.

The Spirit draws ALL men who hear the gospel. Therefore, it is incumbent upon the hearer to accept or reject Christ. If it were just a matter of God choosing some over others, there would be no need for Spiritual conviction; He would just declare the "elect" to be saved. The logical conclusion to Calvinistic thought is the exclusion of the need for belief on the part of man, which contradicts many passages of Scripture.

The elect describes all who believe. Predestination is based in foreknowledge of who will believe. FYI, the Greek word for "will draw" means to drag. The Spirit drags on the hearts of ALL who hear.

This raises another question for me. What exactly is foreknowledge? Is it God looking down through history seeing who will accept or what?

 

[jbh28]

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men unto me.

The Spirit draws ALL men who hear the gospel. Therefore, it is incumbent upon the hearer to accept or reject Christ. If it were just a matter of God choosing some over others, there would be no need for Spiritual conviction; He would just declare the "elect" to be saved. The logical conclusion to Calvinistic thought is the exclusion of the need for belief on the part of man, which contradicts many passages of Scripture.

The elect describes all who believe. Predestination is based in foreknowledge of who will believe. FYI, the Greek word for "will draw" means to drag. The Spirit drags on the hearts of ALL who hear.

How is this related to what an unregenerate person can do? Are you saying that unregenerate cannot come until God draws them. At that point, God gives the unregenerate the ability to come. In other words give him a little bit of good to make a choice?

 

[zrs6v4]

Sorry for slow reply, Been busy with school and work..

No prob.

Here is one problem.
You state the call is genuine..
Thus what is the Call.. is it not to repentance unto salvation?
If the call is genuine as you state then it is for ALL to repent and come to the KNOWLEDGE (meaning they understand) of truth.

Your confusion with my view here is that when I say understand, I mean understand it truly. I don't mean they dont have a clue as to what the message of the Gospel is saying, but they don't really see the spiritual dimensions of the call that leads to action and repentance. So yes they might understand the call, but they don't understand their need, their condition, see reality, see Christ... If they did see spiritually and understand truly then they would repent and turn to Christ.

So you are left with a couple of more issues.
1. telling those whom Christ did not die for.. that God genuinely desires them to repent and be saved
2. stating the above even implies the truth.

God can not and does not desire for anyone to repent and be saved except those for whom Christ died. If Christ did not die for those whom we are telling (as if God is genuinely calling them) to repent and be saved, and Christ did not in fact die so they CAN be saved.. it is a lie pure and simple.
If Christ did not die for them... there is NO sense in which they can/could repent to be saved. The message is a false calling.

If God, who is just, calls all men with a genuine calling, then God will deal with each person in the same way as God is no respecter of persons, or at least that is what He says.

I disagree with your logic as I have pondered on this all day. I do think the call is genuine and I think there is a larger issue that arises when we say that Christ died for everyone. God's call is genuine to the un-elect. If they would repent they would have a propitiation for their sins, but they dont repent, do not have a Savior, and their sin remains upon them. We call out for the elect in Christ and labor for them. Not to say the unelect are unequal or less important, but they do not repent. Yet we do not know who the elect are so we call everyone. On a side note, if Christ died for the unelect and the unelect are still punished for their own sins then there is an unjust issue. If we believe Christ died for all and that God poured out the wrath of the unelect onto Christ then God has become unbalanced. The only argument that can be made is that people go to hell for rejecting Christ only, which is not biblical.

Interesting.. we find in 1 Cor 1 that even those whom God, through nature, is shown by God.. and they UNDERSTAND.. yet they are dead in their trespasses and sins, still. ANYTHING God reveals is done so in a way that brings understanding.. else you have God trying to do something and failing.. or at least failing on purpose. And if He failing on purpose.. again.. you have a false message and not a genuine one.

Im not exactly sure what part of 1 Corinthians 1 you are speaking of, do you mean Romans 1? I don't want to try to respond by guessing where you are speaking of, but I will say this: There is a huge difference between knowing the Gospel and it making sense in my mind, or of creation. Whether a special revelation of Christ or a general revelation I can know and understand in my mind. Yet, in my mind I might understand these things, I still dont really see them unto true wisdom which only comes as gift from God. True wisdom and understanding leads to an action every time. That is why when you or I was saved we responded because God gave us an understanding of Himself and our sin that we could not have grasped on our own. God doesn't try to make Himself known, He does. He doesn't try to reveal Himself when He wants, He does it. The problem doesn't rest on God trying to help us. The problem rests on us not getting it. Furthermore, we will never understand or get it unless God intervenes. God intervenes according to His will. The call is genuine, but the Spirit works according to to the will of God as through the preaching of the Gospel He gives life to the chosen ones who don't deserve it any more than the unelect.

Mine: God designed His calling to reach those whom He desired, which are those who will respond in faith. He didn't make this calling after He looked down the corridors of time to find out who would respond. He chose first how they will come (by faith), He chose who He wanted (those of faith, everyone), and the means to bring them in (a calling to faith). Man had no say.. it was all God's choice..... Example.. If God desire men to be saved by works.. then the calling would be works oriented.. The call is the same to all.. the same power of revelation is to all.. yet only those who respond by working their way to heaven would be saved. Thus the message is genuine in its calling, intent, and purpose but will only be accepted by a certain group out the whole it was sent to.

I'm not fully seeing how you view this. How does God make sure that exactly those people he chose would respond to His calling with faith? I agree that God designed it all sovereignly, but I am not seeing how He can bring about His purposed elect within His design? It seems to be either based on their choice or by luck. Please dont take that wrongly.

What do you do with Acts 2:38-39?

Regeneration is a term like salvation that is very general in relation to the full event that has taken place. It designates a state of being not the fullness of the action that has taken place in the person.
Thus yes.. scripture plainly and consistently states faith is before justification and sanctification (which is fully understood biblically as regeneration) both of which place the person in a state of being 'In Christ' for which scripture declares is being alive.

I don't see any clear Biblical evidence that shows logic order that states that regeneration is the full event of being made new. If there was a clear passage or two I would change my position. I'll discuss below in your next point.

I didn't say that showed a logical order of salvation.. It shows a person who regenerate/saved and their spiritual status.. thus illustrating logically, along with multiple other scriptures, that to be IN CHRIST, is to have your sins removed, and thus be in a right standing with God to even be able to be placed INTO Christ.

I agree that there is no logical order, thats my point. We can say that if a person is regenerate that He or she is justified and adopted. It seems to me that if you use that passage to show that regeneration must include justification and adoption then the passage itself must be showing logical order. I don't think that was Paul's point.

No.. it is not true and not what I said
It is true that God must open men's eyes to see and understand the truth.. but that is not biblically described as being regenerate.. that is THEOLOGICALLY described.. there is a difference.

I didn't intend for this to represent what you said, it was a side note . If you use the entirety of Scripture to see things then it is very logical to say that regeneration would be like a resurrection and therefore would be like somebody waking up from sleep. logic doesn't go far though, our goal is to see things from Scripture. Either way, the very work of God's Spirit through the preaching of the Word to people is to open the eyes of the chosen and cause them to understand. It isn't hard for God to cause somebody to understand in a way that leads them to His desired goal- Salvation. If He can then why not do it to all some say? God hasn't called all with an effectual calling. This is illustrated nicely in Acts 2:38-39 and Romans 8:30. I dont care how many times those verses have been quoted they are still meat.

On a side note: If Regeneration does indeed stand for the entire renewal of the person as you say, then Scripturally the Spirit does something very similar to the reformed view of regeneration to bring people to Christ. He literally opens their hard hearts so they can understand the Gospel in their souls not their heads. If you think people understand like they need to (again, not simply understand intellectually) apart from the Spirit then we leave Him out of a job and must rely on a spiritually dead person to respond rather than the power of God.

 

[zrs6v4]

This is where Calvinists err greatly. You cannot compare spiritual death to physical death. A person who is physically dead can do nothing whatsoever, but this is not true of those who are spiritually dead, they can do many things. The rich man who died and went to hell in Luke 16 could see, hear, feel, speak, felt remorse and repentance, and worried about his brothers. The spiritually dead are not like someone who is physically dead.

Winman I think the very point of Spiritual death is to be compared to Physical death. Yes their are some guidelines:

A spiritually dead person is alive physically.
A spiritually dead person has a working soul that isnt dead.
A spiritually dead person can indeed make spiritual choices.

The word dead in the spiritual is to point to the utter impossibility for the human being who has a sin nature to act against his own nature to righteousness. The very point in it being used in the Bible is to show what a spiritually lost person is like- a dead man. They need to be rescued, not given a choice or anything left in their own hands.

Im not going to say they have no ability to respond because they have all instruments necessary to do so. I think lack of ability is the wrong term. It is better said that they definitely wont just as God can't sin.

 

[zrs6v4]

I believe that regeneration and faith happen at the same time. I don't believe that a person has faith while unregenerate

We should chat about this. Last year (the last time I studied this) I came to the conclusion you seem to be speaking of. The three options are

1. A person believes before regenerate
2. A person is regenerate before he believes
3. A person is regenerate and believes at the same time as God lavishes all spiritual blessings in salvation at once.

2 or 3 are the only logical options of Scripture. As I said earlier the reformed definition of regeneration is still a good description of what it is like when the Spirit calls with His spiritual calling that leads to salvation everytime. This would be an easy mistake to make Scripturally if it is a mistake at all.

If a person believes in Christ before regeneration or any kind of work that the Holy Spirit must do within Him to cause Him to see and understand spiritually then you have a spiritually dead person responding with a faith that has no true knowledge or understanding. When I say true knowledge I mean the kind of knowledge that leads to wisdom and isn't knowledge in and of itself. It comes from God rather than man. Ill stop here.

 

[Luke2427]

Luke

Honest question, how do YOU know that YOU are of the household of faith?

Because I was dead and now I live.

 

[Luke2427]

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Calvinism teaches that a person must have life (be regenerated) in order to have the ability to believe, but John 20:31 clearly says a person must believe to have life (be regenerated).

If the unregenerate must believe in order to have life, then the unregenerate must be able to do some true good, for to believe on Jesus Christ is true good.

Does that make sense?

It is the only verse you have to support his Arminian and illogical notion that dead things can believe. You have repeatedly quoted it and it does not say what you try to force it to say.

Life is necessary for faith and faith is necessary for continued life.

Fortunately that continued faith is promised.

God makes one alive so he can believe, then he believes which is why God made him alive. His life would not continue if he did not believe.

That is all that verse says and to make it a doctrinal statement of chronology of salvation is nothing more than prooftexting.

If I am wrong, prove it by doing two things:

1. Make sense of this idea that dead things can believe. You'll have to redefine the word "dead".

2. Provide another verse that ACTUALLY states that faith PRECEDES salvation.

Your verse does no more than this: A baby breathes- and breathing he has life.

Did breathing PRECEDE life? No. He had life before he took his first breath. But breathing indicates he still has life.

You want to force "that believing ye might have life" to teach that believing had to precede life. That phrase does not at all teach this- no more than "that breathing ye might have life" teaches that breath preceded life.

You must now find a verse that teaches that believing precedes life. You will NEVER find that because it is illogical and unbiblical.

Do things of necessity breathe before they have life? Of course not- the notion is utterly ridiculous. Is breathing necessary for the maintenance of life? Absolutely- irrevocably. Does the phrase "that breathing ye might have life" demand that breathing comes before life? Of course not. In fact everyone knows that the opposite is true.

But you are bound and determined to make this phrase say what you want it to say. "that believing (breathing) ye might have life" means that believing is proof of life and is necessary for the continued maintenance of life.

Please have the sincerity to admit that you are proof texting by demanding that this verse you keep using teach that faith precedes life. Please yield here so we can have fruitful exchanges on a further topic.

 

[Luke2427]

Because of the depth of the questions I am only going to try and respond to one.
"Can the unregenerate man, still totally dead in his sins, turn to Christ and trust him for salvation?
Does that really even make sense?"

I think that when speaking of man being dead one has to at some point come to a limit in the area that everything is impossible to him in regards to God. How is being able to believe associated with being dead in our sin? While God does the calling we have to decide to accept or refuse that call. While I understand this raises the brow of the ultra group yet if man has no ability to respond to God then the call is a waste of time. Just pump into him acceptance or belief. The other thing that is left is for God to pump into man the acceptance along with the call. In that case this would make man a puppet that can only respond, unless we also want to say that when God pumps a call into man for some He also pumps in a rejection and then blames man for not responding.
So can an unregenerate man turn to Christ? Yes I think He can, but not without a call, and according to scripture God calls all men.

How does a dead man respond to a call?

 

[Luke2427]

In all fairness, a non-cal and cal are not on the same page...so do you think any exchange on this matter is fruitless? If it weren't for these exchanges, I may still be interpreting Bible through TULIP's.

You and I get crossways on occasion because we have some language barrier between us, don't we?

He has some weird, new definition of darkness, and until he enlightens me on what he thinks darkness is we are at an impasse.

 

[Luke2427]

Well, in twenty years I've never met a Calvinist that can understand scripture.

John 20:31 says you have to believe to have life. It's very simple and straightforward. Only someone who has been indoctrinated to believe otherwise cannot understand.

You cannot possibly have life until you first believe, because until you believe on Jesus you are dead in your trespasses and sins. You cannot be regenerated before you believe, because then you would be regenerated and dead in your sins at the same time.

You must be kidding. No reputable Arminian scholar would make such a ridiculous remark. Luther, Beza, Augustine, Jonathan Edwards and simply the greatest Bible scholars of all time don't understand the Scripture?

Aren't you KJVO? You do know that the KJV is a predominantly Calvinist work don't you?

In fact the TR which they used is a text passed down from Erasmus (who was no Calvinist) to Theodore Beza (who was, of course THOROUGHLY Calvinist). It was primarily Beza's version of what would later become known as the TR which the KJV translators used. And the vast majority of the translators themselves were thoroughly Calvinist.

Your favorite Bible comes from a text which an edition of a teacher of false doctrine and your favorite version of the Bible was translated by a bunch of false doctrine peddlers according to you.

How exactly do you deal with that?

I wish you would not make silly remarks like this. I know the rolly eyes frustrated you, and perhaps they were a bit snotty, but your above comments do not help your case at all.

Let's get back on topic. An recant of that statement would be helpful in my opinion.

 

[Luke2427]

This is where Calvinists err greatly. You cannot compare spiritual death to physical death. A person who is physically dead can do nothing whatsoever, but this is not true of those who are spiritually dead, they can do many things. The rich man who died and went to hell in Luke 16 could see, hear, feel, speak, felt remorse and repentance, and worried about his brothers. The spiritually dead are not like someone who is physically dead.

I can see why you think that from these passages. But consider the fact that the rich man in hell was still spiritually dead to God. In hell he could not respond in any fashion whatsoever to God. He could see, hear, feel and speak with his tormented soul but there was no wholesome, God yearning, righteous hunger, in his dead spirit. He was morally, spiritually dead.
But still the passage is passage is apples and oranges.

And this is shown with Adam and Eve. Did they die spiritually when they ate the forbidden fruit? Yes. But could they hear God and respond to him when he callled? Yes.

They heard him with their physical ears which were not dead yet. That's all the Scripture says. If they heard him with their spirit, which the Bible does not say, it would only be because God made their Spirit alive by his words. His words are life, after all.
His words are exactly how he gives live- exactly how he regenerates.

This is the puzzle piece you are missing that keeps you from understanding and receiving Calvinism. You see Jesus call Lazarus, for example,- a dead man. And then you see this dead man rise up and respond and you say- SEE! THE DEAD CAN RESPOND! What you miss is that Lazarus has stopped being dead the moment Christ called him. What is responding is not a dead man. What is responding is a man who WAS dead and is NOW ALIVE.

Adam and Eve were spiritually dead in sin, yet they heard God in the garden and were aware of him and hid themselves. When God called they heard his voice and responded to him. They carried on a conversation with God.

Same.

We know Cain was lost and unregenerate, yet he carried on a conversation with God in chapter 4.

Same.

So, Calvinists greatly err, they misunderstand completely spiritual death.

Can you not see now that this is actually where you greatly err?

It is not like physical death whatsoever. Spiritual death means to be separated from God, but it never means man cannot respond to God.

Same.

You need to quit listening to false teaches who cherry pick verses to teach a false doctrine the scriptures never teach.

There is no point in having a conversation if you are going to call most of the greatest Christians (Spurgeon, Whitfield, Edwards, Calvin, Beza, Matthew Henry, W. A. Criswell, Jonathan Edwards, St. Augustine and I think it is pretty clear: the Apostle Paul and Jesus Christ) in history "false teachers".

Get this fixed first, then we can have a fruitful exchange.

 

[Luke2427]

Yes, this is correct. I in no way would ever say that man on his own can be saved. Man must answer the call. Man must first hear the word of God.

Paul asked how a man can possibly believe on Jesus unless he has heard of him.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?

Exactly!! How shall they believe on him whom they have not heard? You must HEAR first. You don't believe until you hear.

You don't hear until you live.

You don't live until he calls.

Now you're starting to get it.

 

[convicted1]

On two different threads this has been a matter of debate. It is worthy of more discussion.

Feel free to address any Calvinism vs Arminianism issues on this thread.

But here is the main issue here:

Can unregenerate man do "good" things as God defines goodness?

No man, rather he be saved or not, can do anything good, in regards to taking himself to heaven. Only the shed blood of Christ can do this.

Is there REAL goodness apart from the way God defines goodness?

There is no doubt that unregenerate man can do things that men consider goodness, but is it not done with godless motives? Can something be good and godless?

Can the unregenerate man, still totally dead in his sins, turn to Christ and trust him for salvation?

Does that really even make sense?

And finally, address this situation.

John goes to heaven. Jack goes to hell. Why?

The question is valid because for what ever reason each went where he went will be the same reason any goes where he goes.

This scenario will be followed with several "why" questions until we get to the bottom of it.

Again, nothing short of the shed blood of Christ will take a man to heaven. No amount of "good deeds" will take you there. The are homosexuals who feed the poor, are spokespersons for PETA and the ASCPA, would help us in a moment's notice, etc. However, none of those things will take you to heaven.

Here is a text I have used on more than one occasion that I truly love!!

James Ch. 4: 7Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

8Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

9Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.

10Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

James Ch. 4: 6But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

Psalm 34:18 The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

Isaiah 57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

Matthew 23:12And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

Luke 14:11For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Luke 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

So you see, it's those that humble themselves in the sight of God, that get lifted up. It's those who believe that "He is and that He is a rewarder of them that do diligently seek Him", who get saved. It's not those who God foreordained, but those who choose to believe. The atonement was not limited as a whole, only limited in it's application. IOW, the atonement is given to those who believe, but was for all. If any fails to believe they will die lost, period. It wasn't the fact they didn't have the chance(or opportunity), to be saved, it's just that they rejected Christ when the caal came their way. I hope this helps, and doesn't muddy the waters!

i am I am's!!

Willis

PS John goes to heaven because the shed blood of Christ was applied to his soul, and John died with the blood being applied.

 

[Luke2427]

You are not listening. The message IS clear from that passage.

"When" did they hear.. while they were IN darkness.
But if they believe.. NOTE again where they are when they believe.. they will not STAY 'in' darkness.

So what? They are in darkness when they are made alive. Then they are made alive by the call of God. Then they rise and come to Christ in faith. Now they are no longer in darkness. It's that simple.

Seriously.. break down the sentence structure and you will see it for yourself.

I just did.

It is plain as day. It does not state those who were in darkness, when they believe.. they will not go back. The problem you have is the sentence itself stands in contradiction to what you are saying.

Apparently not.

So you believe that God desires the non-elect to repent and come to the knowledge of truth?
This is God's desire correct.. that the non-elect be saved?

Yes. This is his desire. It is not his will that any should perish.

But it is his ultimate will to allow them to perish for the greater good- his highest eternal glory and our highest eternal happiness. I made a case for this that no one was able to refute in a previous thread. I hate to have to set that up again for you coming in so late- but I will if you require.

I cannot improve upon Jonathan Edwards' handling of this topic. You can learn about it at http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/conference-messages/is-god-less-glorious-because-he-ordained-that-evil-be

A lot in that we do not find that anywhere in scripture.
We see in scripture God calling people and they reject Him.

I'm not sure but I think I have already dealt with this with you. I made it clear to somebody that all are called. But there is an effectual call which makes alive.

The reason that all are called is so that all are without excuse. The Jeremiah passage I referred to proved this to any reasonable person's satisfaction I think.

We also find Paul telling people NOT to reject God (harden your hearts) when He is calling like their forefathers did.

So what? Do you not understand the Bible is full of THOUSANDS of directives to people who cannot observe them? Thousands.

The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God neither CAN he.
But there they are. Thousands upon thousands of things fromt he Spirit of God that God will hold natural men accountable for knowing the whole time that they cannot receive them.

Interesting that Paul seems to think that man can harden his own heart as God is dealing with Him.. and not in some irresistible calling of God.

It's really not that interesting, is it? The fact that man hardnes his own heart supports total depravity doesn't it? I wouldn't think you as an Arminian would find that compelling at all.

I think you might want to go back and do some context with that.

How do you do context?

The context is really pretty clear, isn't it? God said- Preach to these folks but they won't hear you. But preach any way and by my words that I give you I will judge them.

That's the clear message of the context.

They would not hear because they were under judgment.. just like Israel was when Christ Jesus came due to their continuing in sin and rejection of God.
It is for THAT reason, God judicial hardening for their sins, that only some would come to Christ Jesus at that time.

What??

In some instances yes but not always.. it is also a reference to ones spiritual state of being in relation to God who is light.

And your point?

Men are in darkness without God- ignorance to spiritual things.

Christ is the truth, the light. When made alive they can come to the truth. Once they do they no longer abide in darkness.

Among many passages that teach this, it is the clear message of II Corinthians 4:3-6, isn't it?

Please show me scripture which states a man is spiritually alive apart from being IN Christ Jesus.

There really are far too many of them to give an exhaustive list but I will start with one. Ephesians 2:1-6

Allow me to paraphrase to save some time. You can read it at your leisure.

God quickens (regeneration)- step one.
Then raises us up- step two with him.
then we sit with him in heavenly places- step three.

Life first, then raising with Christ. pretty plain.

Again.. speculation based upon your theology not scripture.
Show me scripture where it states one can be alive apart from Christ.. and not only that.. but be alive and still in darkness.

See above.

They can if one holds to a biblical definition of dead and not one of a theological construct.

I am very interested in your "biblical definition"- very.

If spiritually dead means what you say it means.. basically that dead means you can not do anything..
Then I assume you presume yourself sinless and that you will never commit any sins here-after either.
If not.. then what does scripture mean with it says that "you (the believer) are dead indeed to sin"?

This is really not hard at all. You and I and all Christians bear two natures now, don't we? One is corrupt and dying- the flesh. That nature is NOT dead to sin, is it?

Then we have the inner man which most certainly is dead to sin.

So we have the daily struggle. When the carnal nature we still bear manifests itself there is sin.... you get the idea.

If you are dead, according to your definition, then no believe is able to sin.. ever!

Yea, I just took care of that above didn't I?

Yet we find that though we ARE dead to sin.. we are to also consider ourselves dead to sin.. in that we should not willingly sin.
How can a person dead TO something (whether sin or God) ever desire something they are unable to desire or want?
Quite a contradiction huh?

Same.

Yes.. I'm afraid it does. Again.. you 'presume' you are correct but have failed to prove your position because you are making claims about words meanings.. but you will not find them defined in the manner you are stating them to be.

Now you can't say that, unless you are just stubborn and too proud to yield.

really.. show me all the passages in scripture with the term regeneration in them. I know of only two. I might be a little rusty and will willingly look over any other passages you can provide.

Not the word, the concept- right? Got it?

Agreed here.. but I didn't say 'concept' now did I?

You intimated it by not qualifying the word with "term" or the like.

You said you only find regeneration twice in Scripture. Of course that is utterly ridiculous, isn't it?

In order for that statement to make sense, you should have said, "You only find the "word" or "term" regeneration in Scripture twice.

However, once you corrected it, I still don't know what your point would have been.

However.. it is the same old arguments that have been addressed time and time again.. whether you like the answers or not, they are and have been addressed many, many, many times on here and of course other places beside the good ol' BB

Then apparently you are not getting it.

it has been fun!

Likewise. God bless. I pray work goes well for you, brother. Thank God for a job in this economy, right?

 

[Luke2427]

On two different threads this has been a matter of debate. It is worthy of more discussion.

Feel free to address any Calvinism vs Arminianism issues on this thread.

But here is the main issue here:

No man, rather he be saved or not, can do anything good, in regards to taking himself to heaven. Only the shed blood of Christ can do this.

Is there REAL goodness apart from the way God defines goodness?

There is no doubt that unregenerate man can do things that men consider goodness, but is it not done with godless motives? Can something be good and godless?

Can the unregenerate man, still totally dead in his sins, turn to Christ and trust him for salvation?

Does that really even make sense?

And finally, address this situation.



Again, nothing short of the shed blood of Christ will take a man to heaven. No amount of "good deeds" will take you there. The are homosexuals who feed the poor, are spokespersons for PETA and the ASCPA, would help us in a moment's notice, etc. However, none of those things will take you to heaven.

Here is a text I have used on more than one occasion that I truly love!!

James Ch. 4: 7Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

8Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

9Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.

10Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

James Ch. 4: 6But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

Psalm 34:18 The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

Isaiah 57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

Matthew 23:12And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

Luke 14:11For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Luke 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

So you see, it's those that humble themselves in the sight of God, that get lifted up. It's those who believe that "He is and that He is a rewarder of them that do diligently seek Him", who get saved. It's not those who God foreordained, but those who choose to believe. The atonement was not limited as a whole, only limited in it's application. IOW, the atonement is given to those who believe, but was for all. If any fails to believe they will die lost, period. It wasn't the fact they didn't have the chance(or opportunity), to be saved, it's just that they rejected Christ when the caal came their way. I hope this helps, and doesn't muddy the waters!

i am I am's!!

Willis

PS John goes to heaven because the shed blood of Christ was applied to his soul, and John died with the blood being applied.

Very good. Thank you for responding.

Why does John have the blood applied to his soul and Jack not?

I assume your answer is in the words above. That John humbled himself and Jack did not.

OK. Why did John humble himself and Jack NOT humble himself.


Just so you know, there will be of necessity one or two more rounds of "Why" questions before we can get to the bottom of this.

 

[quantumfaith]

Because I was dead and now I live.

Was hoping you could offer me a bit more on this. How do you know you now live?

 

[quantumfaith]

Very good. Thank you for responding.

Why does John have the blood applied to his soul and Jack not?

I assume your answer is in the words above. That John humbled himself and Jack did not.

OK. Why did John humble himself and Jack NOT humble himself.


Just so you know, there will be of necessity one or two more rounds of "Why" questions before we can get to the bottom of this.

Luke
OK I realize that there are multiple "sticking" points between Cal and non-Cal, but is the one that we are dancing around here about whether or not God offers grace to everyone (an opportunity) or not. John, for whatever reason, chose to respond to that grace offered, Jack "hardened" his heart and chose not to.

 

[Allan]

So what? They are in darkness when they are made alive. Then they are made alive by the call of God. Then they rise and come to Christ in faith. Now they are no longer in darkness. It's that simple.

To me, the issue is that you have an incorrect view/definition of being made alive or spiritual life and as such it precipitates an incorrect view of spiritually dead.

Let me try this again.
One can not be in darkness AND be alive.
Please note how 'scripture' defines being spiritually alive or having life.
Let us look at 1 Cor 15:22 for as in Adam all die, even so as in Christ all shall be made alive.

NOTE: This is referencing a spiritual condition.. in Adam all die (I know you agree here), but note also that it states 'in Christ' all shall be made alive.
When does a person become alive.. in Christ. However, when does this 'being IN Christ Jesus come to be? Let go back to John who speaks consistently on the issue.

Jhn 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

So 'IN Him (Jesus) is life.. and that life is the light of men
verse 9 states that Jesus being that promised Light, lights every man that comes into world. Now.. does that mean that everyone is saved because they all have the light and that light is life which is in Christ Jesus? No. it does not.
Note that immediately following you have Jesus coming into the world but it did not know Him.. and unto His own but they did not receive Him.. BUT to as many as did receive him/believed on Him.. they were give the authority (God's choosing) to be called the children of God.

Therefore just because there is light and the people know/understand what it is revealing, does not mean they will accept it.
Example..a relationship.. lets say a person knows/understands that the other person they are seeing is no good for them.. yet they will not break it off, surprisingly not very often. A person can know the truth and not want to accept .. we see this in Rom 1:18 to the end of the chapter and other places.

However what we do find in most interesting though in relation to spiritual life or being made alive is that in order to be MADE alive it conditional upon faith.

John 3:15.. whosoever believes on him shall... have everlasting life.
Note first when life initiates in the believe.. belief and then comes life.
Note also everlasting life is not about quantity of life but quality.
What constitutes this quality.. forever? No.. God.. spiritual or eternal life is defined in John 17 as being in a relationship or in unity with the Father through and with the Son as well.

John 3:16 establishes the fact that life does not precede faith in that whosoever believes will not perish (cause / effect) but will have everlasting life. Faith precedes life

There is not two types of spiritual lives in scripture. There is one.. you are either alive or not - your either have life or your do not.. you are not made alive to be given life. You either pass from death to life or not.

Another passage:
Jhn 3:36 He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that does not believe in the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
NOTE that 'life' refers to a relationship and unity with God.. those who believe receive life (a relationship and unity) those how don't God's wrath is stayed on them. We know this because the emphasis is not on being alive to believe but on believing to become ALIVE!

Another, but even more plain:
Jhn 5:24 Truly I say unto you, He that hears my word, and believes on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Same principle.. the emphasis is not on being alive to believe and escape condemnation... but one believe to become alive and therefore miss your condemnation.. and subsequently brought from death into life. Here there is no question that spiritual life and death are about unity and/or separation from God.

Note that John 6:40 establishes this same aspect of faith then life.
paraphrased - This is the will of the Father, that whoever sees the Son and believes on Him may/should have everlasting life...
AS WELL AS . 1 Tim 1:16 - .. should hereafter believe on Him TO eternal life.

Note that never once will you find anywhere in scripture life and then faith because to be made alive or have life is not a waking up but a relationship and unity with God. The Key here is not just a relationship but what constitutes that relationship - in unity.. which is only found IN Christ Jesus.

NOW.. take careful note here.. This relationship/unity with the Father is based in Christ and thus Christ himself is our life. Col 3:4. And if Christ is our life then to be alive we must be connected to him.. the Holy One of Israel.. ergo, IN CHRIST.

Note 1 John 5:20 in that to have eternal life or to be alive is to be IN Christ because He is life.

Now.. if one is alive while still in their trespasses and sins (ie.. darkness), the reformed view has Christ being joined to sin because one can not be alive or have spiritual life apart from being unified and in Christ Jesus. How can spiritual darkness AND Light exist in the same place. They can not. Either one is alive and unified with Christ and thus God the Father or they are in darkness having their eyes opened to the light that they might believe and be saved.. being imparted by God life, which is Christ Jesus.

Again.. you will not find in scripture two types of spiritual 'lives'. There is only one.

Therefore if being alive or life means to be in unity with God the Father and His Son.. then being dead means just the opposite.. to NOT be in unity but separated from them. It doesn't mean 'unable', except that we, not being His (separated), can not in works please Him. Any work apart (separated from) faith can not and will not please Him. Remember it has pleased Him to give life to those who have seen and believe.

This is why we are alive UNTO God and dead to sin. Our life (being alive) is with and in regard to God and our relationship.. nothing more and nothing less

I made a case for this that no one was able to refute in a previous thread. I hate to have to set that up again for you coming in so late- but I will if you require.

It is and has been refuted on here.. it is just you (and other reformed) don't like the answer and thus assume it is unrefuted.

I'm not sure but I think I have already dealt with this with you. I made it clear to somebody that all are called. But there is an effectual call which makes alive.

And I thought I made it clear there is nothing in scripture that I can find that lends any weight to two separate kinds of calls.

The reason that all are called is so that all are without excuse. The Jeremiah passage I referred to proved this to any reasonable person's satisfaction I think.

Not even close .
Jeremiah must be kept in context. Israel was under God's judicial punishment and as read in scripture it is a judicial hardening due to their sin and continued rebellion. While the call does go out to all, as you stated, it goes out in the same way and power so that none can accuse God and all stand under condemnation who did not receive the truth so as to be saved. And thus like in 2 Thes 2:10-12 we understand that it was for THAT REASON that those who do such (like in Jeremiah) God will send a strong delusion to believe the lie (the one they traded the truth for as mentioned over in Rom 1) and did not receive the truth and are condemned for it.

It's really not that interesting, is it? The fact that man hardnes his own heart supports total depravity doesn't it? I wouldn't think you as an Arminian would find that compelling at all.

I'm not Arminian..
but 2 things.
1. I agree with total depravity
2. Historic or Reformed Arminians do as well.

Christ is the truth, the light. When made alive they can come to the truth. Once they do they no longer abide in darkness.

Wrong and I have shown you in the above .. but there are MANY more passages that dictate alive or life is to be in a relationship and unity with God. Thus if one is made alive prior to faith then they are NO LONGER in darkness and indeed can not be since in God there is NO Darkness.

 

[convicted1]

Luke
OK I realize that there are multiple "sticking" points between Cal and non-Cal, but is the one that we are dancing around here about whether or not God offers grace to everyone (an opportunity) or not. John, for whatever reason, chose to respond to that grace offered, Jack "hardened" his heart and chose not to.

I know that this wasn't directed towards me, but I want to respond. What it boils down to in the Cal's vs. non-Cal's is this.

Cal's- John went to heaven because he was elected from birth and Jack wasn't. Furthermore, Grace was offered to John, and not to Jack.

Non-Cal's- John went to heaven because he heeded to the call, whereas Jack didn't. Furthermore, Grace was extended to both, but only John accepted it, and therefore was "elected" to salvation.

I see salvation this way: I have a bright, juicy red delicious apple. I offer it to my friend, and I really want him to have it. He tells me "no thanks". I really want him to have it, so I offer it to him again. He says "no thanks" again. So, I then go to someone else and offer it to him/her, and he/she accepts it. Regardless of the first friend turning the apple down, it was still offered to him. He chose,for whatever reason, not to take it. The atonement is the same way. It was for all, but only those who accept it, will get it. That's why I stated in an earlier post that the atonement was limited only in its application.

i am I am's

Willis