What can unregenerate man do?

[Luke2427]

"It will be much better for us to do the work of him that sent us, than to be judging divine providence, or our fellow men. It is ours, not to speculate, but to perform acts of mercy and love, according to the tenor of the gospel. Let us then be less inquisitive and more practical, less for cracking doctrinal nuts, and more for bringing forth the bread of life to the starving multitudes." —Charles Spurgeon, "The Spur"

Yes, and he also said the following"

"Calvinism IS the Gospel"

Spurgeon dedicated many sermons to prove Calvinism. The above quote only means that we should not fail to do the business of preaching the Gospel by avoiding it to crack doctrinal nuts.

Spurgeon was certainly not against getting to the bottom of theological issues.

"The old truth that Calvin preached, that Augustine preached, that Paul preached, is the truth that I must preach to-day, or else be false to my conscience and my God. I cannot shape the truth; I know of no such thing as paring off the rough edges of a doctrine. John Knox's gospel is my gospel. That which thundered through Scotland must thunder through England again."—C. H. Spurgeon

 

[Luke2427]

Wow...we are not at an impasse as long as I agree with you :laugh: The very definition of impasses tells me we are at an impasse. I don't agree with you...you don't agree with me. You have claimed to examine the facts, I have examined the facts (even though you say I have not...don't understand how you could have arrived at that, oh wait...I don't agree )

For not having a free will you are pretty strong willed :thumbs:

Very funny. I guess you are right. We are at an impasse.

But not a NECESSARY impasse if you would just yield to the Scripture and logic on this matter.

 

[webdog]

Then it is your unmitigated belief that man determines and God grants what man determines, right?

Why not read what I write instead or what you want to hear me say? I've said it repeatedly...NO, MAN DOES NOT DETERMINE IF HE IS SAVED. God granting man the choice does NOT violate that!

The person IS doing it- yes. But where you've stopped thinking it through is here: why do some do it and others don't. There is a clear Bible answer.

You have already been shown why from the Bible!

Why does John believe and Jack not believe?

The answer is because God regenerated John so that John could. John could not any more believe than Jack could before regeneration.

...rendering faith completely moot as they have already passed from death to life APART from union with Christ.

What are your other options? They are only this: John is wiser or less depraved than Jack. In other words, John is better than Jack. John goes to heaven because he was smart enough to choose Christ. Jack goes to hell because he was not as smart as John.

More false dichotomy.

Is that what you believe? When John gets to heaven he can look down into hell as it were and say to Jack- "Well, Jack you're down there roasting because you were not as smart as me."

You know what I believe, so PLEASE do away with the strawmen. Using your model, what would Jack say to John "Well, John you are up there because God regenerated you and not me all the while holding me accountable for my condition". THAT is the logical conclusion to your doctrine.

If you don't believe that God does all the determining then you MUST believe that some men are better than others.

Those are your only two options, Webdog.

*sigh*

That equally makes your view that the 3 year old girl that was just raped and burned was an act of God That is YOUR only option with your deterministic view of God's sovereignty.

 

[Luke2427]

Some wonder why I ramble on about Jack and John:

I cannot improve upon Spurgeon. Most of us Calvinists can relate to this glorious day to which he speaks in the following:

Well can I remember the manner in which I learned the doctrines of grace in a single instant. Born, as all of us are by nature, an Arminian, I still believed the old things I had heard continually from the pulpit, and did not see the grace of God. When I was coming to Christ, I thought I was doing it all myself, and though I sought the Lord earnestly, I had no idea the Lord was seeking me. I do not think the young convert is at first aware of this. I can recall the very day and hour when first I received those truths in my own soul—when they were, as John Bunyan says, burnt into my heart as with a hot iron, and I can recollect how I felt that I had grown on a sudden from a babe into a man—that I had made progress in Scriptural knowledge, through having found, once for all, the clue to the truth of God. One week-night, when I was sitting in the house of God, I was not thinking much about the preacher's sermon, for I did not believe it. The thought struck me, How did you come to be a Christian? I sought the Lord. But how did you come to seek the Lord? The truth flashed across my mind in a moment—I should not have sought Him unless there had been some previous influence in my mind to make me seek Him. I prayed, thought I, but then I asked myself, How came I to pray? I was induced to pray by reading the Scriptures. How came I to read the Scriptures? I did read them, but what led me to do so? Then, in a moment, I saw that God was at the bottom of it all, and that He was the Author of my faith, and so the whole doctrine of grace opened up to me, and from that doctrine I have not departed to this day, and I desire to make this my constant confession, "I ascribe my change wholly to God."

And all Calvinists said...

 

[webdog]

"Calvinism IS the Gospel"

Pure unadulterated heresy. Calvinism is but one soteriological view on the Gospel.

 

[quantumfaith]

Pure unadulterated heresy. Calvinism is but one soteriological view on the Gospel.

I agree Webdog, but I might add, I see hints of prideful arrogance and theological haughtiness, unless there exists some elements of sarcasm that I am simply not picking up on.

 

[Luke2427]

Why not read what I write instead or what you want to hear me say? I've said it repeatedly...NO, MAN DOES NOT DETERMINE IF HE IS SAVED. God granting man the choice does NOT violate that!

But why does some man choose while the other does not? It is God, Webdog. I agree that man chooses. The natural man chooses sin and the regenerate man chooses the Savior.

You have already been shown why from the Bible!
...rendering faith completely moot as they have already passed from death to life APART from union with Christ.

Faith is not moot. Breath is not rendered moot just because I say life existed in the baby before breath.

Life precedes faith. There is no other logical or Scriptural explanation. You have not provided one and I do not think that you can.

More false dichotomy.

Then give me another option, Webdog. All you must do to defeat me in this debate is give me another sensible option between:

Some men are better than others

or...

God does all the choosing.

Which is it????????????????????????????

You know what I believe, so PLEASE do away with the strawmen. Using your model, what would Jack say to John "Well, John you are up there because God regenerated you and not me all the while holding me accountable for my condition". THAT is the logical conclusion to your doctrine.

Agreed. It leaves the decision where it is best made- it the secret, perfect, omniscient counsels of God.
*sigh*

That equally makes your view that the 3 year old girl that was just raped and burned was an act of God That is YOUR only option with your deterministic view of God's sovereignty.

So what if it is true? What we find palatable has no bearing whatsoever on what is true.

I actually agree that that is my only option. I see that god hates evil and suffering. I understand that he loves all people. But I also understand that some things that are terrible are necessary for other things that are infinitely more glorious to take place.

Sin is necessary for grace and mercy to exist. I wish you would go to a website
http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/conference-messages/is-god-less-glorious-because-he-ordained-that-evil-be

 

[Luke2427]

I agree Webdog, but I might add, I see hints of prideful arrogance and theological haughtiness, unless there exists some elements of sarcasm that I am simply not picking up on.

You agree that Spurgeon, Whitfield, Edwards, Knox, Augustine, W. A. Criswell, Martin Luther and many other greats are all heretics???

 

[Jerome]

Life precedes faith. There is no other logical or Scriptural explanation. You have not provided one and I do not think that you can.

"If I am to preach faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already. It is unnecessary and ridiculous for me to preach Christ to him and bid him to believe in order to be saved, when he is saved already, being regenerate." —Charles Spurgeon

 

[Luke2427]

"If I am to preach faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already. It is unnecessary and ridiculous for me to preach Christ to him and bid him to believe in order to be saved, when he is saved already, being regenerate." —Charles Spurgeon

He obviously did not mean that faith precedes regeneration because of the following quote from his sermon on the matter. He must have simply meant that it does not make since to preach faith to a man who already has it.

And now we must say, that regeneration consists in this. God the Holy Spirit, in a supernatural manner—mark, by the word supernatural I mean just what it strictly means; supernatural, more than natural—works upon the hearts of men, and they by the operations of the divine Spirit become regenerate men; but without the Spirit they never can be regenerated. And unless God the Holy Spirit, who "worketh in us to will and to do," should operate upon the will and the conscience, regeneration is an absolute impossibility, and therefore so is salvation. "What!" says one, "do you mean to say that God absolutely interposes in the salvation of every man to make him regenerate?" I do indeed; in the salvation of every person there is an actual putting forth of the divine power, whereby the dead sinner is quickened, the unwilling sinner is made willing, the desperately hard sinner has his conscience made tender; and he who rejected God and despised Christ, is brought to cast himself down at the feet of Jesus. This is called fanatical doctrine, mayhap; that we can not help; it is scriptural doctrine, that is enough for us. "Except a man be born of the Spirit he can not see the kingdom of God; that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." If you like it not, quarrel with my Master, not with me; I do but simply declare his own revelation, that there must be in your heart something more than you can ever work there. There must be a divine operation; call it a miraculous operation, if you please; it is in some sense so. There must be a divine interposition, a divine working, a divine influence, or else, do what you may, without that you perish, and are undone; "for except a man be born again, be can not see the kingdom of God." The change is radical; it gives us new natures, makes us love what we hated and hate what we loved, sets us in a new road; makes our habits different, our thoughts different, makes us different in private, and different in public. So that being in Christ it is fulfilled: "If any man be in Christ he is a new creature; old things are passed away, behold all things are become new." - Spurgeon

 

[quantumfaith]

You agree that Spurgeon, Whitfield, Edwards, Knox, Augustine, W. A. Criswell, Martin Luther and many other greats are all heretics???

Well to soften the "rhetoric" just a bit, let's just say I find myself in opposition to their theological position of Calvinism.

 

[Luke2427]

Here is further and undeniable proof, Brother Jerome:

Spurgeon - page 6, paragraph 4 wrote:

There never was a grain of such faith as this in the world, except in a regenerate soul, and there never will be while the world standeth. It is so according to the text, and if we had no other testimony this one passage would be quite enough to prove it. “Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God.”
Spurgeon - page 6, second to last paragraph wrote:

To believe in Jesus is a better indicator of regeneration than anything else, and in no case did it ever mislead. Faith in the living God and his Son Jesus Christ is always the result of the new birth, and can never exist except in the regenerate. Whoever has faith is a saved man.

I found another message by Spurgeon titled The Warrant of Faith (1863), where he uses the term regeneration as a synonym for salvation.
Spurgeon - page 3, paragraph 3 wrote:

If I am to preach faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already. It is unnecessary and ridiculous for me to preach Christ to him and bid him to believe in order to be saved, when he is saved already, being regenerate.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I agree Webdog, but I might add, I see hints of prideful arrogance and theological haughtiness, unless there exists some elements of sarcasm that I am simply not picking up on.

I would scarce to imagine the prideful arrogance & theological haughtiness in the pen of John Newton when he wrote:

Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.

 

[quantumfaith]

I would scarce to imagine the prideful arrogance & theological haughtiness in the pen of John Newton when he wrote:

Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.

Now friend, that was a bit unfair, and I think you know what I mean. I will leave it at that.

 

[Luke2427]

Now friend, that was a bit unfair, and I think you know what I mean. I will leave it at that.

That's very civil and mature of you quantum- seriously.:thumbs:

Jump in here, will you?

Why does John believe and Jack refuse to believe?

Is John better than Jack? Is he smarter or less depraved?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Well to soften the "rhetoric" just a bit, let's just say I find myself in opposition to their theological position of Calvinism.

you find yourself in opposition? Really, whom is talking now Dave?

Dave, you know my testimony. You know some of the trying times I put myself through & my sorrow at loosing a child in infancy. As I sat on that ash pit I had time to consider the filth of a man I was & I was ashamed. At that point I humbled myself beyond recognition & looked at all the Lord did, all he accomplished on the cross for my salvation. What did I do for it ....nothing. Certainly I deserved death.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

you find yourself in opposition? Really, whom is talking now Dave?

Dave, you know my testimony. You know some of the trying times I put myself through & my sorrow at loosing a child in infancy. As I sat on that ash pit I had time to consider the filth of a man I was & I was ashamed. At that point I humbled myself beyond recognition & looked at all the Lord did, all he accomplished on the cross for my salvation. What did I do for it ....nothing. Certainly I deserved death.

Just a note EWF. Deserving death and being so depraved you cannot concieve of a "good" are two different things. I assure you there is enough of God's image left after original sin for man to make some good choices.

 

[glfredrick]

Some wonder why I ramble on about Jack and John:

I cannot improve upon Spurgeon. Most of us Calvinists can relate to this glorious day to which he speaks in the following:



And all Calvinists said...

AMEN!

Without God's first act of revelation, no act of human free will can do the first thing for us.

Our problem is that we do not wish to surrender our own sovereignty to our rightful King. Such has been the case since the Adversary decided to test the limits of his will against a sovereign Father. When he fell, he came to make sure that we too would fall with him. We did, and ever since, we have placed something between us and our King. Whether our reason, logical arguments, interpretation of Scripture, etc., all good things, given us by the same God who is our King, but none that can replace the grace OF the King.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Just a note EWF. Deserving death and being so depraved you cannot concieve of a "good" are two different things. I assure you there is enough of God's image left after original sin for man to make some good choices.

No brothers, not for me there isnt. This would be a piller you could burn me from. Were it not for Gods having chosen some, Heaven would have none.

 

[Luke2427]

Just a note EWF. Deserving death and being so depraved you cannot concieve of a "good" are two different things. I assure you there is enough of God's image left after original sin for man to make some good choices.

That's just not biblical. It really is not, is it?

To the corrupt and undefiled NOTHING IS PURE.

You've got God's word in direct opposition to yours, don't you?

What do you do with that?