Maybe a blackboard would help...or a chart , something graphic
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What can unregenerate man do?
- Thread starter Luke2427
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Maybe a blackboard would help...or a chart , something graphic
I'll take any answer that goes another step.
But when you say, I am going to heaven because I... and then, by implication, you say, Jack is going to hell because he...
What is the sensible conclusion?
That you were better than Jack.
Do you believe that people who are going to heaven were just better people than those who go to hell?
convicted1
Guest
Bro Luke,
Not everyone here on planet earth are spiritually dead as I type this. You mean even a new born baby, less than one hour old is spiritually dead? Tell me this: how old was you when you have your first memory. I can remember things when I was around two years old. But most of those memories are blurry. Why did I ask that question? We didn't even know we existed until close to two or so...or at least I didn't. How can God hold someone "accountable" for their deeds when they didn't even know they existed? This is the difference in spiritual and physical death. The very instant breath enters our body, we start living and dying at the same time. God breathed into our nostrils the breath of life, and we became a living soul just like Adam. When sin deceived us, we died just like Adam did. It's the soul that sins that dies(Eze. 18:,20). Our natural body was made in sin. Intercourse is a sinful act(allowable only in the marriage bed,btw), and this is where sin comes in at our birth. It's in the flesh at birth. But when we know to do good, and do it not, then it is sin to us. From this point forward, we are in need of God saving our soul. So, I don't agree with my DoG Brethern that we are born spiritually dead. I do believe we are totally depraved AFTER "the commandment came, sin revived, and I died". Meaning, none of us can save ourself, and none of us can even approach God without Him first drawing us. It's after God draws us, that we must come in order to be saved.
i am I am's!!
Willis
Then the word of God and logic cannot convince you. You are beyond reaching on this matter because it does not matter how plainly the Word of God says that
there is none that doeth good and
to the corrupt and undefiled NOTHING is pure, and
the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God neither CAN it be, and
an evil tree CANNOT bring forth good fruit,
and that in [the flesh] dwelleth NO GOOD thing, etc...
you will not be convinced. You have taken your stand no matter what God says. Because, Thinkingstuff, the above is NOT hyperbole. These are plain, unexaggerated statements of fact from books of the Bible from which we develop fundamental Christian Doctrine.
None of these are Proverbs, or eschatalogical imagery. These are plain statements of fact.
And you CANNOT enunciate a better way for God to say that man is utterly, spiritually bankrupt than the above statements. If you can- do it.
See post 262, please.
Syllogisms
Which premises do you reject?
God is the source of all goodness
Unregenerate man is without God
Unregenerate man is without goodness
An evil tree cannot bring forth good fruit
Unregenerate man is an evil tree
Unregenerate man cannot bring forth good fruit
Life is necessary for a being to do anything
Believing is something men do
Life is necessary for believing
Death means without life
The unregenerate are spiritually dead
The unregenerate are without spiritual life
Jack goes to hell because he chooses foolishly
John goes to heaven because he chooses wisely
John is wiser than Jack
Wisdom is better than foolishness
Jack is foolish and John is wise
John is better than Jack
Heaven is filled with people who chose wisely
Hell is filled with people who chose poorly
Heaven is filled with better people than those who fill hell
God is a God of logic and order
Some men reject logic and order
Those men reject God
Which premises do you reject?
God is the source of all goodness
Unregenerate man is without God
Unregenerate man is without goodness
An evil tree cannot bring forth good fruit
Unregenerate man is an evil tree
Unregenerate man cannot bring forth good fruit
Life is necessary for a being to do anything
Believing is something men do
Life is necessary for believing
Death means without life
The unregenerate are spiritually dead
The unregenerate are without spiritual life
Jack goes to hell because he chooses foolishly
John goes to heaven because he chooses wisely
John is wiser than Jack
Wisdom is better than foolishness
Jack is foolish and John is wise
John is better than Jack
Heaven is filled with people who chose wisely
Hell is filled with people who chose poorly
Heaven is filled with better people than those who fill hell
God is a God of logic and order
Some men reject logic and order
Those men reject God
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Why do babies die physically? Did not death come through sin? Badies are born with inherited sin nature physically and spiritually from the line of Adam. It is original sin.
Webdog, I agree with his response, so Ill leave it here.
When I sin it is all me, but when I do good all glory goes to God. The only good Ill ever do is by the grace of God within me. When I do bad I can't get angry with God.
Why did God allow Satan to fall?
Why did God allow Adam to be tempted and sin?
Why does God allow great evil in the world?
and yours Why doesn't All Powerful, Good, and Sovereign God save all?
Because there is a deeper purpose in all of it, it is for His glory and this involves much evil to be allowed including the allowance of many to die unsaved by the will of God.
I had a great thought today to help understand evil within the world and us.
Imagine the guy who is so deep in sin that he goes around killing little children and doing evil things like that. How would that make you feel if you stood face to face with him? would that not bring such anger and crying out for judgment and even death?
Now lets put ourselves in God's eyes. Before God we are infinite times worse than that man in our sins. How can God save any at all? If I were in heaven seeing things through God's eyes I would cry out judgment and death to all mankind with not a drop of mercy because we have sinned against God Himself.
We need to stop looking at things from our perspective and see things from God's. We aren't poor sinners who all deserve a chance. We aren't poor sinners who God will give all an equal chance to. God saves who He wills and it isn't because one is better than another or one did something a little wiser than another to bring God down from heaven. We are saved by grace alone and God's method is through faith. When we come to realize that God does not give everyone an equal chance we will learn to cherish and be more thankful that He has given us a chance, and furthermore that He has chosen to save us through His divine work of the heart. All He has chosen to save are indeed saved.
This is correct of course. But Quantum doesn't believe that man is thoroughly sinful as your anecdote declares.
He literally believes that there is much good in people who hourly ignore the sacrifice of Jesus as if it is not worthy of their attention.
He thinks there is much good in people who walk on God's earth and breath God's air and refuse to so much as acknowledge him, much less fall down and worship Him.
He thinks there is much good in people who only love themselves and their own; and he supports this notion with passages that show that sinful men do what hyenas and crocodiles do: give good gifts to their children.
The Bible says the opposite of what they contend repeatedly.
Logic demands that it cannot be true.
And they will NOT answer the question why some accept and others reject and what makes the difference between the two. They will not. Look at this thread. In nearly three hundred posts not ONE of them has tried to answer.
Why is this?
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I will let Quantum answer for himself, but if anyone honestly thinks people are "good" (not good as in from a humanly worldly perspective) I challenge them to look at Isaiah 6, Ezekiel 1, and Revelation 1. Look at Isaiah's response, Ezekiel's, and John's to the glory of God. The glory and the light of God exposes sin, and puts us on our face. Isaiah is the best example. He was a godly man, and in the light of God crumbled because of His wickedness He saw before God.
In light of reality, when I imagine the true reality of myself before God right now, I will not stand. This isn't just because I am not righteous in and of myself, but is also because I am not good- my heart is wicked. A final thought would be that the measure of which we view our goodness is equal to the measure in which we see our need for mercy. If we see ourselves as good, then why need Jesus? Or if we are kinda good, we kinda need Jesus. If we are evil, then we completely need Jesus. When we are saved it isn't the end of the Gospel for us, we need to abide in Christ and believers never stop needing the Gospel.
I shared this with Z. Tell me if you think I am off, please.
Quantum doesn't believe that man is thoroughly sinful.
He literally believes that there is much good in people who hourly ignore the sacrifice of Jesus as if it is not worthy of their attention.
He thinks there is much good in people who walk on God's earth and breath God's air and refuse to so much as acknowledge him, much less fall down and worship Him.
He thinks there is much good in people who only love themselves and their own; and he supports this notion with passages that show that sinful men do what hyenas and crocodiles do: give good gifts to their children.
The Bible says the opposite of what they contend repeatedly.
Logic demands that it cannot be true.
And they will NOT answer the question why some accept and others reject and what makes the difference between the two. They will not. Look at this thread. In nearly three hundred posts not ONE of them has tried to answer.
Why is this?
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quantumfaith
Active Member
It has been answered, and will not be answered again. John acknowledged who God was, and His position before God, humbled himself and sought and asked for God's forgiveness of his sins. Jack chose not to do so. Your assertion, seems to me to be a "fallacy of Complex cause".
quantumfaith
Active Member
And yes, what I stated is a true and accurate position of the calvinist perspective, that being the "elect" comment.
"By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death." (Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 21, Section 5
quantumfaith
Active Member
You are putting forth a tautology. But, as in the case of permutations in mathematics, "order is important".
quantumfaith
Active Member
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
quantumfaith
Active Member
If you are going to go that route, I would prefer equations.
quantumfaith
Active Member
Boy howdy, on these two things we agree. Miracles do occur.
quantumfaith
Active Member
You SEEM to be getting, at the very least, "frustrated" that someone doesn't simply acquiesce to your particular positions and then you pull out the ad hominem claims.
"They puzzle their heads about Predestination and Free Will; they do not mind sitting down over some problem that the archangel Gabriel could not solve, and pose themselves over that; but the simple truth, "Believe and live" — they have no time for that" —Charles Spurgeon
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