Bapticostals

[Jared Hanley]

Phillip in his thread titled "Bapticostal Questions" from late 2004 said the following:

Bapticostals:

Do you believe in a seperate baptism of the Holy Spirit as shown by speaking in unknown tongues?

Do you believe you can loose your salvation?

What is the purpose of speaking in "unknown" tongues?

How did the Bapticostals begin? My guess is that a group of Pentecostals joined a Baptist church at one time and changed its doctrines.

Why don't you just join the Pentecostals? Or start a new denomination. (If you say that you have, rather than changed a Baptist church then you are obviously not truly Baptist and should not be posting here.)

It will take me a while to lay this out. I was raised Pentecostal. Then, about four years ago largely because of Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology and a the ministry of John Piper (especially his books "Desiring God" and "The Pleasures of God"), I embraced the five points of what is known as Calvinism.

As you may be aware, Wayne Grudem and John Piper are both Reformed and they are also both continuationists. That is, they believe that spiritual gifts are still in operation in the church. Far from being down home bapticostals like Ron Phillips or Michael Combs, they are well-respected theologians. They wouldn't say that they're Charismatic or Pentecostal (Bapticostal?). If anything they would say they're Third Wave just as the Association of Vineyard churches is. Or, they would simply say that they are continuationists.

So, for a long time, I considered myself Third Wave and Reformed.

But, over the last year and a half or so, I have been moving back to a Pentecostal preference in terms of style. This means that I prefer the musical style of say Kirk Franklin, Donnie McClurkin, Israel Houghton, Smokie Norful, Yolanda Adams, and Anthony Evans to say Chris Tomlin, David Crowder, Matt Redman, or Kristian Stanfill.

However, my beliefs haven't changed.

I also tend to prefer a black preaching style as that is more of the style that I was raised with in the Pentecostal church.

God has been dealing with me about humility and I have become over the last week or so increasingly comfortable with calling myself "Bapticostal".

To answer Phillip's questions:

Do you believe in a seperate baptism of the Holy Spirit as shown by speaking in unknown tongues?

No, I believe that you are baptized by the Holy Spirit when you get saved. There are many subsequent fillings, but no more baptisms, at least not in the sense that Pentecostals believe that there is one all-encompassing baptism after salvation.

Do you believe you can loose your salvation?

No, since I'm Reformed, I believe in the perseverance of the saints.

What is the purpose of speaking in "unknown" tongues?

It's a private prayer language.

There is a growing number of Reformed Charismatics. Most of them are young and are influenced by people like Paul Washer, John Piper, Mark Driscoll, Francis Chan, Louie Giglio, Matt Chandler, and Joshua Harris (all of whom with the possible exception of Paul Washer are Charismatically inclined, several of them identify as "Charismatic"). Mark Driscoll's Acts 29 Network is growing in the SBC and Mark Driscoll is Reformed and Charismatic as are many of the churches in his network.

 

[Aaron]

The main attraction to Pentecostalism is the worship style, itself built on shoddy, carnal doctrines. Form and doctrine are interrelated. You may be infatuated with Calvinism, but you haven't apprehended it fully, or you would see how empty charismatic worship really is.

 

[Tom Butler]

Welcome to the Baptist Board.

I notice your profile lists you as non-denominational. Maybe we can get this thread moved to the Other Christian Denominations section, since only Baptists may post in this section.

I'll make the request to the moderator.

 

[glfredrick]

Adopting under-developed theology for the sake of a particular worship style seems to be an ill-advised move. Worship style is mostly cultural and driven by the people who do it, like it, and see it as their own tradition. Theology is another thing all together.

One thing that I have noticed in the Pentecostal world is that the individual experience seems to be the big deal. Over my years in ministry, however, I have found that once we take our eyes off of Jesus to "experience" something we often find ourselves disappointed and astray. We end up chasing experience after experience just to try to stay in touch with God.

Your own experience may be different, but that's what I've seen, and also what I believe Paul wrote to the people of Corinth in his strongly worded warning letters to a people who lived for experiential practices.

I also note that Paul warned the church in Corinth about their practice with tongues instead of encouraging them to more use.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Aaron...

The main attraction to Pentecostalism is the worship style, itself built on shoddy, carnal doctrines."

I'm not pentacostal, but I have to say that this statement of yours is absurd and ridiculous. It might be true of the Word of Faithers, but not regular pentecostals.

Form and doctrine are interrelated. You may be infatuated with Calvinism, but you haven't apprehended it fully, or you would see how empty charismatic worship really is.

Another absurd statement.

 

[Jon-Marc]

I've been a Baptist since I was saved in 1963. However, most Baptist preachers are boring. Pentecostal preachers are way too loud for me, and I've found I prefer Bapticostal-type preachers, whose preaching is somewhere between the loud screaming that Pentecostals do and the quiet, boring preaching that most Baptist preachers do. I have only come across two Baptist preachers in my 47 years 5 months, 3 weeks and 4 days of being saved that I really liked, because they were not boring and didn't give me headaches like I got from a Pentecostal preacher as a child because of his screaming and pulpit pounding. I went home every Sunday with a splitting headache until I rebelled at age 13 and refused to go any more.

 

[Jared Hanley]

The main attraction to Pentecostalism is the worship style, itself built on shoddy, carnal doctrines. Form and doctrine are interrelated. You may be infatuated with Calvinism, but you haven't apprehended it fully, or you would see how empty charismatic worship really is.

So, Sovereign Grace Ministries and Acts 29 (C.J. Mahaney, Joshua Harris, Bob Kaufflin, Dave Harvey, Mark Driscoll, Matt Chandler, all who call themselves Reformed Charismatics) don't fully apprehend Calvinism because they employ a Charismatic style of worship? Obviously Reformed theologians like John Piper, Wayne Grudem, R.C. Sproul, Al Mohler, and Tim Keller don't feel the same way since they have close associations with some of them. In fact, Wayne Grudem was with the Vineyard initially and would probably still be with them if they hadn't gone in a liberal direction. John Piper took a group from his church down to the Anaheim Vineyard back in the late 80's. There are plenty of other places that Reformed theology can be seen mixing with Charismatic practice.

 

[Jared Hanley]

.....

adopting under-developed theology for the sake of a particular worship style seems to be an ill-advised move. Worship style is mostly cultural and driven by the people who do it, like it, and see it as their own tradition. Theology is another thing all together.

the way i see it, most worship styles have songs that would fit most evangelical theologies. I will admit that there are almost no black gospel artists that are reformed and charismatic (aside from the possible exception of anthony evans, son of tony evans). But, i don't think that means that there aren't any songs that would fit that theology. The black church and the pentecostal church tend to have a high view of the sovereignty of god. They may not mean the same thing by it that reformed people do, but they still make some of the same statements sometimes.

one thing that i have noticed in the pentecostal world is that the individual experience seems to be the big deal. Over my years in ministry, however, i have found that once we take our eyes off of jesus to "experience" something we often find ourselves disappointed and astray. We end up chasing experience after experience just to try to stay in touch with god.

as much as i agree with john piper that you can't know christ without doctrines about christ, i still believe that it's just as easy to get your eyes off of christ and onto doctrine as it is to get your eyes off of christ and onto experience. What i'm trying to say is that all of us struggle to keep our eyes on christ no matter what our theology is.

your own experience may be different, but that's what i've seen, and also what i believe paul wrote to the people of corinth in his strongly worded warning letters to a people who lived for experiential practices.

the corinthians were misusing spiritual gifts. Paul wasn't telling them to not use spiritual gifts but to use them properly. I try not to focus on tongues too much. That's not the most important gift to me. I don't think people should speak in tongues without interpreting it (or without someone else interpreting it).

i also note that paul warned the church in corinth about their practice with tongues instead of encouraging them to more use.

i agree with you there. Although, paul didn't forbid speaking in tongues either.

.....

 

[Iconoclast]

Wayne Grudems false ideas concerning spiritual gifts are no help to the church.These other men fail to stand against the error,remain popular but are no real help to those who listen to them.

 

[Jared Hanley]

Wayne Grudems false ideas concerning spiritual gifts are no help to the church.These other men fail to stand against the error,remain popular but are no real help to those who listen to them.

Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology is the most used Systematic Theology in Baptist seminaries. There's a reason for that. He is articulate in his arguments for essential Christian doctrine and unlike many systematic theologies, he writes with an captivating style that holds your interest.

Cessationism is losing its grip, especially among the younger crowd. My pastor is in his late 20's and he is Reformed. Our church started out as a youth group at a Southern Baptist church. One of the reasons that we're not Southern Baptist is that our pastor disagrees with cessationism. But, there are growing numbers of younger continuationists within the SBC. I haven't met anyone in person that is SBC that is a cessationist. I know they're the majority, but I haven't met any in person.

 

[pinoybaptist]

all these -ists and -isms are making my unworthy head spin.
all these personalities belonging to this or that school of theology or soteriology reminds me of 1 Corinthians 1.
all I know and all I ever want to know is that from the foundation of the world the Great One in Three elected a people unto Himself, loved them when He knew they were unlovable, pitched His tent amongst them in His own good, due time, bore their sins in His body at a cross unnoticed and unwritten about by human historians, sent them and preserved for them His love letter in 66 books which He had written by 40 something sinners, and gave this unworthy sinner a hope in heaven and a witness of His Spirit to my spirit that I am one of His own.
He also whispered to my spirit that the work is done, all whom He has set Himself to redeem are redeemed, and His Spirit will quicken them all in due time, regardless of their head spinning -ists and -isms.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Phillip in his thread titled "Bapticostal Questions" from late 2004 said the following:



It will take me a while to lay this out. I was raised Pentecostal. Then, about four years ago largely because of Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology and a the ministry of John Piper (especially his books "Desiring God" and "The Pleasures of God"), I embraced the five points of what is known as Calvinism.

As you may be aware, Wayne Grudem and John Piper are both Reformed and they are also both continuationists. That is, they believe that spiritual gifts are still in operation in the church. Far from being down home bapticostals like Ron Phillips or Michael Combs, they are well-respected theologians. They wouldn't say that they're Charismatic or Pentecostal (Bapticostal?). If anything they would say they're Third Wave just as the Association of Vineyard churches is. Or, they would simply say that they are continuationists.

So, for a long time, I considered myself Third Wave and Reformed.

But, over the last year and a half or so, I have been moving back to a Pentecostal preference in terms of style. This means that I prefer the musical style of say Kirk Franklin, Donnie McClurkin, Israel Houghton, Smokie Norful, Yolanda Adams, and Anthony Evans to say Chris Tomlin, David Crowder, Matt Redman, or Kristian Stanfill.

However, my beliefs haven't changed.

I also tend to prefer a black preaching style as that is more of the style that I was raised with in the Pentecostal church.

God has been dealing with me about humility and I have become over the last week or so increasingly comfortable with calling myself "Bapticostal".

To answer Phillip's questions:

Do you believe in a seperate baptism of the Holy Spirit as shown by speaking in unknown tongues?

No, I believe that you are baptized by the Holy Spirit when you get saved. There are many subsequent fillings, but no more baptisms, at least not in the sense that Pentecostals believe that there is one all-encompassing baptism after salvation.

Do you believe you can loose your salvation?

No, since I'm Reformed, I believe in the perseverance of the saints.

What is the purpose of speaking in "unknown" tongues?

It's a private prayer language.

There is a growing number of Reformed Charismatics. Most of them are young and are influenced by people like Paul Washer, John Piper, Mark Driscoll, Francis Chan, Louie Giglio, Matt Chandler, and Joshua Harris (all of whom with the possible exception of Paul Washer are Charismatically inclined, several of them identify as "Charismatic"). Mark Driscoll's Acts 29 Network is growing in the SBC and Mark Driscoll is Reformed and Charismatic as are many of the churches in his network.

Piper is not a reformed charismatic. He has been greatly influenced by Martyn Lloyd-Jones a 20th century theologian from the Welsh Calvinist Methodist movement that later Blended into the Presbyterian Church. You are right that they believe in the continuation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit but wrong in believing in any charismatic or have Pentecostal connections. Piper is an avowed Reformed Baptist. Lloyd Jones was an avowed Calvinistic Methodist. What they believe, as do I, is that all gifts are temporary to the individual that there being given & needs to be tested through Holy Scripture, tongues being the least of the gifts & generally viewed as pretty unnecessary. The key, like all Calvinistic theology is the Sovereignty of God ... not to interfere with the HS ability to do as He pleases, IE The HS has sovereignty, not man.

 

[billwald]

>>Do you believe you can loose your salvation?

>No, since I'm Reformed, I believe in the perseverance of the saints.

Agree, but there is no objective test for "being saved," only gut feeling.

IF I am regenerate I can't lose my regeneration but how can I know I am saved without continually doing the good works specified in 1st John?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Jared, I understand your wish to go to a black church....truthfully Id perfer it provided it was Reformed. wish I lived in Kentucky cause Id be at Elder DJ Ward's church....here is a video. Try to stay with the Reformed Faith & the Doctrines of Grace. Keep the Faith Brother.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffWDkdVqfXo

 

[Aaron]

So, Sovereign Grace Ministries and Acts 29 (C.J. Mahaney, Joshua Harris, Bob Kaufflin, Dave Harvey, Mark Driscoll, Matt Chandler, all who call themselves Reformed Charismatics) don't fully apprehend Calvinism because they employ a Charismatic style of worship? Obviously Reformed theologians like John Piper, Wayne Grudem, R.C. Sproul, Al Mohler, and Tim Keller don't feel the same way since they have close associations with some of them. In fact, Wayne Grudem was with the Vineyard initially and would probably still be with them if they hadn't gone in a liberal direction. John Piper took a group from his church down to the Anaheim Vineyard back in the late 80's. There are plenty of other places that Reformed theology can be seen mixing with Charismatic practice.

I think Paul, Peter, James and John are more to be heeded than the men you listed.

 

[Thousand Hills]

Agree, but there is no objective test for "being saved," only gut feeling.

I may have misunderstood what your saying, if so I apologize but I disagree with the "gut feeling" remark.

The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. Romans 8:16 NIV

 

[Iconoclast]

Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology is the most used Systematic Theology in Baptist seminaries. There's a reason for that. He is articulate in his arguments for essential Christian doctrine and unlike many systematic theologies, he writes with an captivating style that holds your interest.

Cessationism is losing its grip, especially among the younger crowd. My pastor is in his late 20's and he is Reformed. Our church started out as a youth group at a Southern Baptist church. One of the reasons that we're not Southern Baptist is that our pastor disagrees with cessationism. But, there are growing numbers of younger continuationists within the SBC. I haven't met anyone in person that is SBC that is a cessationist. I know they're the majority, but I haven't met any in person.

Grudem has taken from solid systematic theologies,re wrote and re-defined things in opposition to the historic faith.

Cessationism is losing its grip, especially among the younger crowd

it is the younger crowd who is losing its grip on scripture.No one speaks in tongues today, no one prays in tongues today....no one.
The rhyming noises are just emotional excess. Useless time wasting like catholics praying a rosary.?Your pastor is not reformed if he goes outside of scripture.

 

[Jerome]

Youtube video of Southern Bapti-costal Pastor Ron Phillips.

At 3:45 he tells tells the interviewer:

My wife's preaching now, and the Baptists hate that worse than me speaking in tongues.

But I'm still a Baptist.
Yeah we're still Baptist folks, and my son's preaching out here at Truth Tabernacle on Memorial Drive.
Right here, Baptist preacher, Baptist church, speaking in tongues.
Shhh, don't tell anybody.

 

[billwald]

>I may have misunderstood what your saying, if so I apologize but I disagree with the "gut feeling" remark.

>The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. Romans 8:16 NIV

If not a gut feeling then how does the HS communicate with you? Email? Visions and dreams?

 

[Jared Hanley]

Piper is not a reformed charismatic. He has been greatly influenced by Martyn Lloyd-Jones a 20th century theologian from the Welsh Calvinist Methodist movement that later Blended into the Presbyterian Church. You are right that they believe in the continuation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit but wrong in believing in any charismatic or have Pentecostal connections. Piper is an avowed Reformed Baptist. Lloyd Jones was an avowed Calvinistic Methodist. What they believe, as do I, is that all gifts are temporary to the individual that there being given & needs to be tested through Holy Scripture, tongues being the least of the gifts & generally viewed as pretty unnecessary. The key, like all Calvinistic theology is the Sovereignty of God ... not to interfere with the HS ability to do as He pleases, IE The HS has sovereignty, not man.

Technically speaking, like Piper, I am neither Charismatic nor Pentecostal. I know that Piper is not Charismatic. I would say that I'm Reformed in doctrine and Pentecostal in practice.