Why is there evil in the world?

[Luke2427]

Maybe, perhaps, those (of us) who feel that God purposefully and intently planned "free will" of his sentient creation might have some semblance of correctness? Naw, not to those convinced of the (Calvinisitc, Doctrines of Grace, Historical Baptist, Reformed) theological persuasion. According this position, any hint of "free will" is simply an illusion at best, or more properly simply a flawed and "purposeful" misstatement of who God really is.

I have no problem whatsoever with the idea that Adam had a free will before the fall.

I think that what is commonly thought of as free will probably never existed but that Adam was not forced to do one or the other is perfectly true.

But, dear brethren and sisters, it is the contention of some of you that God designed Adam with a free will so that God could be loved. Was God lonely? Was the love within the trinity that he experienced in eternity past deficient in some way?

And you still have this problem that God is planning for the existence of evil. He knows what Adam is going to do with that free will, doesn't he. But he gives it to him any way.

So all of the pain and suffering, all of the rape and murder and hell, you still have God designing the world that it might come to pass.

But I implore you to consider that your motive in God for so doing is infinitely less glorious. It is not that Christ might be magnified for grace forever by countless multitudes- Your motive in God is because God wanted to be loved by the free will of man.

 

[Luke2427]

Not as orthodox as you might think http://www.americanpresbyterianchurch.org/the_new_divinity.htm

According to the theopedia http://www.theopedia.com/Hyper-Calvinism historic Calvinism is contrasted with hyper Calvinism as follows:

Historic Calvinist position compared to Hyper-Calvinism

Historic Calvinists regard repentance and faith as the means by which the great commandment to love God and love our neighbor finds fulfillment. This duty to love God and neighbor existed before the fall and Adam certainly enjoyed the ability to do so. Man's love of God is therefore still obligatory, and the means through which it is to be realized, namely repentance and faith, are likewise obligatory. Man owes God his love and trust by the very fact that he is God's rational creature. Adam had the ability to love and trust God before the Fall. Man is still responsible to love and trust God even though, because of the Fall and while in an unregenerate state, he has lost the moral ability to do so. Therefore, contrary to hyper-Calvinism, fallen man is indeed duty-bound to repent and believe in Christ for salvation.

Jonathan Edwards was a historic Calvinist as am I.

 

[quantumfaith]

I have no problem whatsoever with the idea that Adam had a free will before the fall.

I think that what is commonly thought of as free will probably never existed but that Adam was not forced to do one or the other is perfectly true.

With all due respect Luke, this sounds an awful lot like a contradiction.

But, dear brethren and sisters, it is the contention of some of you that God designed Adam with a free will so that God could be loved. Was God lonely? Was the love within the trinity that he experienced in eternity past deficient in some way?

I would ask you the same question, you say "all and only for His glory", I say he created Adam and creation out of love.
And you still have this problem that God is planning for the existence of evil. He knows what Adam is going to do with that free will, doesn't he. But he gives it to him any way.

So all of the pain and suffering, all of the rape and murder and hell, you still have God designing the world that it might come to pass.

We have God designing it, and due to His omniscience He most definitely knew what would transpire, but I am totally "unconvinced" that He designed the world "intentionally" with evil in mind.

But I implore you to consider that your motive in God for so doing is infinitely less glorious. It is not that Christ might be magnified for grace forever by countless multitudes- Your motive in God is because God wanted to be loved by the free will of man.

God is Glorified, because He "demonstrated His Love for us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us"

To coin a question from Casting Crowns....."Does Every man have "hope"?

 

[quantumfaith]

I have no problem whatsoever with the idea that Adam had a free will before the fall.

I think that what is commonly thought of as free will probably never existed but that Adam was not forced to do one or the other is perfectly true.

But, dear brethren and sisters, it is the contention of some of you that God designed Adam with a free will so that God could be loved. Was God lonely? Was the love within the trinity that he experienced in eternity past deficient in some way?

And you still have this problem that God is planning for the existence of evil. He knows what Adam is going to do with that free will, doesn't he. But he gives it to him any way.

So all of the pain and suffering, all of the rape and murder and hell, you still have God designing the world that it might come to pass.

But I implore you to consider that your motive in God for so doing is infinitely less glorious.

Patently untrue, in mathematics we "no solution or null set."

It is not that Christ might be magnified for grace forever by countless multitudes- Your motive in God is because God wanted to be loved by the free will of man.

No, "God's Motive", best I understand it from scripture and life, is LOVE.

 

[quantumfaith]

On a lighter note

What’s the difference between a Southern Baptist and an IFB?

The Southern Baptist believes everyone’s going to Hell.

The IFB does too, especially the Southern Baptist!

 

[quantumfaith]

On a lighter note II

Catholic, Baptist, Methodist; all three went to heaven.
As they passed by different doors, they could see different people praising the Lord, but as they passed by one door it was closed with a sign on the door that said "QUIET".
The Catholic, Baptist, and Methodist asked...what's going on in there?
The angel said "SHHHHH!" Those are the Calvinists.
They think they are the only ones up here."

 

[Luke2427]

[/I][/B]

God is Glorified, because He "demonstrated His Love for us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us"

To coin a question from Casting Crowns....."Does Every man have "hope"?

Exactly!

How could he have demonstrated that kind of love for sinners without- sin?

God is not the source of sin- that is not what any Calvinist contends. But he planned it to come into being, he orchestrated the universe such that it might exist for the very reason that you yourself site.

 

[Luke2427]

[/I][/B]

No, "God's Motive", best I understand it from scripture and life, is LOVE.

Not his primary motive- not so. His primary motive is glory.

But let's assume for a moment that you are right.

How could God have displayed such love, exercised such love as was needed to save sinners- without evil?

There is no infinite display of love at Calvary, there is no lavishing saved sinners with infinite love forever- without the existence of evil.

We will experience a love forever that angels will never know- because of evil and our having been saved from it.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Catholic, Baptist, Methodist; all three went to heaven.
As they passed by different doors, they could see different people praising the Lord, but as they passed by one door it was closed with a sign on the door that said "QUIET".
The Catholic, Baptist, and Methodist asked...what's going on in there?
The angel said "SHHHHH!" Those are the Calvinists.
They think they are the only ones up here."

Ha Ha Ha..... Note, they had their own private room.:smilewinkgrin:

 

[quantumfaith]

Exactly!

How could he have demonstrated that kind of love for sinners without- sin?

God is not the source of sin- that is not what any Calvinist contends. But he planned it to come into being, he orchestrated the universe such that it might exist for the very reason that you yourself site.

We quibble over "planned". As I see your point, there appears to me an "equivalence relation" between "planned and ordained". Whereas, "as I understand myself, omniscient knowledge that something will occur, "to me" does not imply it was the "intentional planning" of God.

 

[quantumfaith]

Not his primary motive- not so. His primary motive is glory.

But let's assume for a moment that you are right.

How could God have displayed such love, exercised such love as was needed to save sinners- without evil?

There is no infinite display of love at Calvary, there is no lavishing saved sinners with infinite love forever- without the existence of evil.

We will experience a love forever that angels will never know- because of evil and our having been saved from it.

Well, my brother Luke, we just simply disagree as to God's motive. To be honest, it borders on hubris for either of us to claim precise knowledge as to what motivates our Maker.

 

[Luke2427]

We quibble over "planned". As I see your point, there appears to me an "equivalence relation" between "planned and ordained". Whereas, "as I understand myself, omniscient knowledge that something will occur, "to me" does not imply it was the "intentional planning" of God.

I don't have a problem with that. I don't necessarily agree but I will grant you that.

But please try to consider that God COULD have designed a world so that Adam would never have chosen to sin.

God could have designed Lucifer such that he would never have become covetous.

But he didn't.

When he designed Heaven and all her creatures and when he designed the universe he KNEW EXACTLY EVERY SINGLE OUTCOME OF HIS DESIGN. If there was any particular outcome that God did not want he could have tweaked his creation so that that unwanted aspect not come to pass.

But he designed it all exactly like it was knowing exactly what would come of it. That means of logical NECESSITY that he planned for all things to happen just as they happened.

This does not mean that he likes everything that has happened in and of itself- but that he planned it for the greater good.

 

[quantumfaith]

I don't have a problem with that. I don't necessarily agree but I will grant you that.

But please try to consider that God COULD have designed a world so that Adam would never have chosen to sin.

God could have designed Lucifer such that he would never have become covetous.

But he didn't.

On this, you absolutely agree!!!!
When he designed Heaven and all her creatures and when he designed the universe he KNEW EXACTLY EVERY SINGLE OUTCOME OF HIS DESIGN.
Agreed, otherwise, He would not be omniscient. Although, there are some theologies and theologians who think otherwise (Open etc.) But, their contention is not that God is "unable" but rather "self-limiting" in his omniscience.( I do not ascribe to Open Theology)

If there was any particular outcome that God did not want he could have tweaked his creation so that that unwanted aspect not come to pass.

But he designed it all exactly like it was knowing exactly what would come of it. That means of logical NECESSITY that he planned for all things to happen just as they happened.

This does not mean that he likes everything that has happened in and of itself- but that he planned it for the greater good.

Not sure (personally) about all this, although it is agreed that God can do whatever He wishes, by virtue of the fact tha He is God. Our quibbling is over how each of us sees his motivation.

 

[Luke2427]

[/I][/B]

Not sure (personally) about all this, although it is agreed that God can do whatever He wishes, by virtue of the fact tha He is God. Our quibbling is over how each of us sees his motivation.

Tell me which ones of the following statements you agree with, disagree with or are not sure, please.
_______________________________
God knew what would be every single outcome of the creation he designed before he designed it.

God could have designed it in such a way as to avoid evil and suffering ever coming into being.

God has a purpose for everything he does.

Grace could not be displayed without evil.

Mercy could not be displayed without sinners who need it; sin was necessary for sinners to exist.

The cross is the central focus of the Bible and the most important event in the history of the universe.

Sin was necessary for Christ to die on the cross for sins.

The cross was God's plan before he built the universe.

_______________________

Please identify whether you agree, disagree or do not know beside each of these statements.

 

[Luke2427]

My friends, whatever your view of sovereignty, to say that God planned and set evil in motion is to say He created evil. Whatever nuance of language is used to justify it, if the meaning is that God willed, wanted, and created evil, then this is heresy. Flat out, plain heresy. Our view of sovereignty must stop before we get to the point of God planning evil.

Such teachings as I've seen here reaffirm my repulsion to such doctrine, and increases my resolve against it, for it ultimately has God the author of sin, a thoroughly distasteful concept. It shows a theology gone to seed. I say begone with it. I will not continue such a discussion. I am out of this one.

Tell me which ones of the following statements you agree with, disagree with or are not sure, please.
----------------------
God knew what would be every single outcome of the creation he designed before he designed it.

God could have designed it in such a way as to avoid evil and suffering ever coming into being.

God has a purpose for everything he does.

Grace could not be displayed without evil.

Mercy could not be displayed without sinners who need it; sin was necessary for sinners to exist.

The cross is the central focus of the Bible and the most important event in the history of the universe.

Sin was necessary for Christ to die on the cross for sins.

The cross was God's plan before he built the universe.
-----------------

Please identify whether you agree, disagree or do not know beside each of these statements.

 

[Amy.G]

How is there are Lamb receiving praises by multitudes which no man can number throughout the endless ages of eternity for his shed blood and great grace if evil never came into existence?

How is there a cross and an empty tomb if there is no evil?

Evil is abominable to God but he ordered and designed the universe that it would come to pass so that Christ could display the great grace of God and receive eternal praise for having done so.

It is the most glorious plan any human has ever heard of.

Have you watched the video in the OP? It will answer the question better than I can.

Well then I need to get busy and go out and do all the evil I can while I'm on this earth so that God can be glorified.

:BangHead:

 

[Amy.G]

This is uber-hyper Calvinism.

God needed to create sin in order for Him to show is power in defeating it.

Therefore God caused every person to sin in order to be glorified in saving them. (And He only saves some and passed over the others, again showing His grace and mercy.)

It must be this way to the hyper because any other way negates the sovereignty of God. :BangHead:


(I'm getting a headache this morning.)

 

[Luke2427]

Well then I need to get busy and go out and do all the evil I can while I'm on this earth so that God can be glorified.

:BangHead:

Should we sin that grace may abound? God forbid.


I noticed you didn't answer any of the questions. Would you rather Christ never be fully glorified for his grace and mercy so that people never experience evil???

Tell me which ones of the following statements you agree with, disagree with or are not sure, please.
_______________________________
God knew what would be every single outcome of the creation he designed before he designed it.

God could have designed it in such a way as to avoid evil and suffering ever coming into being.

God has a purpose for everything he does.

Grace could not be displayed without evil.

Mercy could not be displayed without sinners who need it; sin was necessary for sinners to exist.

The cross is the central focus of the Bible and the most important event in the history of the universe.

Sin was necessary for Christ to die on the cross for sins.

The cross was God's plan before he built the universe.

_______________________

Please identify whether you agree, disagree or do not know beside each of these statements.

 

[Amy.G]

Should we sin that grace may abound? God forbid.

Of course not. That's one of the reasons that your position makes no sense.

I pray that your eyes will be opened.


I'm not going to answer your questions. Been there, done that. I don't like being manipulated.

 

[Luke2427]

Of course not. That's one of the reasons that your position makes no sense.

I pray that your eyes will be opened.


I'm not going to answer your questions. Been there, done that. I don't like being manipulated.

Then are you just going to drive by post? Are you not going to address arguments?

Are you just going to post banging head posts and snippy comments from now on?

Because that is not debate.

You are not being manipulated. These are extraordinarily simple questions to answer.