I've been debating this subject for years on the board. I'm hardly a drive by poster.
There comes a point when all I know to do is bang my head...and then I get out of the debate.
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Why is there evil in the world?
- Thread starter Luke2427
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I've been debating this subject for years on the board. I'm hardly a drive by poster.
There comes a point when all I know to do is bang my head...and then I get out of the debate.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Own evil desires
God gives us over to our own evil desire, these desires did not come from Him, the Father of light. God does use the evil desires of man for the good of those who love Him. To know it was going to happen doesn't mean He orchestrate, but used it for the good of those who love Him. They did this not by God comand, but by their own evil desire. I believe that God gave free will on only His choice to believe and be saved or not and be condemned; Is for there never to be another satan in heaven, but those who disobey Him( not to trust Him) to be placed where they belong.
God gives us over to our own evil desire, these desires did not come from Him, the Father of light. God does use the evil desires of man for the good of those who love Him. To know it was going to happen doesn't mean He orchestrate, but used it for the good of those who love Him. They did this not by God comand, but by their own evil desire. I believe that God gave free will on only His choice to believe and be saved or not and be condemned; Is for there never to be another satan in heaven, but those who disobey Him( not to trust Him) to be placed where they belong.
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God gives us over to our own evil desire, these desires did not come from Him, the Father of light. God does use the evil desires of man for the good of those who love Him. To know it was going to happen doesn't mean He orchestrate, but used it for the good of those who love Him. They did this not by God comand, but by their own evil desire. I believe that God gave free will on only His choice to believe and be saved or not and be condemned; Is for there never to be another satan in heaven, but those who disobey Him( not to trust Him) to be placed where they belong.
To know if he built the universe in a certain way that it would produce a certain result and then to build it that way anyway is certainly to orchestrate it. There is no logical way around it.
Tell me which ones of the following statements you agree with, disagree with or are not sure, please.
_______________________________
God knew what would be every single outcome of the creation he designed before he designed it.
God could have designed it in such a way as to avoid evil and suffering ever coming into being.
God has a purpose for everything he does.
Grace could not be displayed without evil.
Mercy could not be displayed without sinners who need it; sin was necessary for sinners to exist.
The cross is the central focus of the Bible and the most important event in the history of the universe.
Sin was necessary for Christ to die on the cross for sins.
The cross was God's plan before he built the universe.
_______________________
Please identify whether you agree, disagree or do not know beside each of these statements.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Why
God has created man from the beginning with two coices to believe in Him and be saved or not and be condemned. God has no favorite when it comes to His judgement on this all men have this same choice
All men have this and we are His messengers of it.
Who are we to question God why has made the pots in this way, all you have is assumption of why God has done what He has done. I want one scripture of a command from God for one to sin and disobey Him then you have something to stand on, but what you represent is sinking sand.
The only thing men have set before them is to believe and be saved or not and be condemned.
God has created man from the beginning with two coices to believe in Him and be saved or not and be condemned. God has no favorite when it comes to His judgement on this all men have this same choice
All men have this and we are His messengers of it.
Who are we to question God why has made the pots in this way, all you have is assumption of why God has done what He has done. I want one scripture of a command from God for one to sin and disobey Him then you have something to stand on, but what you represent is sinking sand.
The only thing men have set before them is to believe and be saved or not and be condemned.
God has created man from the beginning with two coices to believe in Him and be saved or not and be condemned. God has no favorite when it comes to His judgement on this all men have this same choice
All men have this and we are His messengers of it.
Who are we to question God why has made the pots in this way, all you have is assumption of why God has done what He has done. I want one scripture of a command from God for one to sin and disobey Him then you have something to stand on, but what you represent is sinking sand.
The only thing men have set before them is to believe and be saved or not and be condemned.
NOBODY believes that God commands men to sin. That's ridiculous.
But God orchestrated the universe so that sin would exist so that Christ could suffer and die and manifest his love for us and receive eternal praise for doing so.
It's as simple as that.
You didn't answer the questions.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Own desire
Do you have a clue of God given men over to their own desire is?
Do you have a clue of God given men over to their own desire is?
I've been debating this subject for years on the board. I'm hardly a drive by poster.
There comes a point when all I know to do is bang my head...and then I get out of the debate.
I think, correct me if I'm wrong, that point is when you are stumped.
It's that point when all of your arguments have been answered and you are no longer able to answer the arguments put to you.
This is because the exhaustive Sovereignty of God is true.
Sin is not an unintended consequence- such a thing is not possible with the Almighty. It's just not, is it?
Do you have a clue of God given men over to their own desire is?
Better than a clue. Are you going to answer the questions?
psalms109:31
Active Member
NOBODY believes that God commands men to sin. That's ridiculous.
But God orchestrated the universe so that sin would exist so that Christ could suffer and die and manifest his love for us and receive eternal praise for doing so.
It's as simple as that.
You didn't answer the questions.
In order for God to orchestrated it has to be commanded if it is not it is men doing their own desires not what God wanted them to do to orchestrated what you believe. Your question can only be answered by assumptions
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In order for God to orchestrated it has to be commended
Why?
if it is not it is men doing their owewn desires not what God wanted them to do
God does not like evil any more than I like going to the gym. But he does like to display his grace and mercy which is not possible without evil. He does like for Christ to be honored by multitudes which no man can number throughout the endless ages of eternity for going to the cross and loving man to the death. He does like that and it is not possible without evil.
to orchestrated what you believe. Your question can only be answered by assumptions
No, there are clear and simple answers to these questions.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Two roads
You are either going down two roads a road God commanded you or your own evil desire, it is you that is trying to make the roads the same. One leads to destruction the other to life
You are either going down two roads a road God commanded you or your own evil desire, it is you that is trying to make the roads the same. One leads to destruction the other to life
psalms109:31
Active Member
Answer your question
To answer your question is to say men our doing God's desire not their own evil desires, so they don't come into play the way you want it. God hasn't commanded anyone to do their own evil desire, but believe(trust) Him
To answer your question is to say men our doing God's desire not their own evil desires, so they don't come into play the way you want it. God hasn't commanded anyone to do their own evil desire, but believe(trust) Him
psalms109:31
Active Member
Answer again
God is using men's own evil desire that He foreknow to bring salvation to those who love Him, you don't accept it though.
God is using men's own evil desire that He foreknow to bring salvation to those who love Him, you don't accept it though.
Luke wrote:
Agreed. God did know man would sin and provided a Saviour for all men. God also knew who would believe and elected them.
I disagree for two reasons. If man could not sin, man would be perfectly holy and equal to God. This cannot be. God cannot sin. Adam and Eve were good, but they had the ability to sin and did. Adam and Eve (or any created being such as angels) cannot be equal to God.
The second reason is love requires choice. In order to truly love someone you must have the choice and option of not loving them.
Agreed, which refutes Unconditional Election. God must elect man for some reason.
Not so, God showed great grace and love to Adam and Eve. He created them good and without sin, he placed them in a magnificant garden and provided everything they would ever need to live.
Well, strictly speaking, yes, mercy cannot be shown unless God provides forgiveness for sin. However, God did show love and kindness to man without sin.
Saying sin was necessary for sinners to exist is circular reasoning.
Agreed, but you must include the resurrection with that.
Agreed, but a form of circular reasoning.
God could not create anything as perfect as himself. He cannot create himself. Anything he would create must be inferior to him. God cannot deny his love when he creates living beings, so must give them free will and choice. This free will must give a living being the choice to do good or evil. God knew that man would exercise his free will and sin and provided a Saviour for man.
The problem with Calvinism is that it puts God in a straightjacket saying God must perform a certain way. It allows no flexibility in God's actions or decisions. But man can and does adapt to changing situations, is man greater than God?
God did not create man to be evil, but God knowing man would do evil provided a way of salvation for man through his Son Jesus.
I have used the argument of our automobiles. Does Ford build cars that it knows can exceed known speed limits? Yes.
Does that make Ford Motor Company responsible when you get pulled over for driving 80 MPH on the highway? No.
God knew what would be every single outcome of the creation he designed before he designed it.
Agreed. God did know man would sin and provided a Saviour for all men. God also knew who would believe and elected them.
God could have designed it in such a way as to avoid evil and suffering ever coming into being.
I disagree for two reasons. If man could not sin, man would be perfectly holy and equal to God. This cannot be. God cannot sin. Adam and Eve were good, but they had the ability to sin and did. Adam and Eve (or any created being such as angels) cannot be equal to God.
The second reason is love requires choice. In order to truly love someone you must have the choice and option of not loving them.
God has a purpose for everything he does.
Agreed, which refutes Unconditional Election. God must elect man for some reason.
Grace could not be displayed without evil.
Not so, God showed great grace and love to Adam and Eve. He created them good and without sin, he placed them in a magnificant garden and provided everything they would ever need to live.
Mercy could not be displayed without sinners who need it; sin was necessary for sinners to exist.
Well, strictly speaking, yes, mercy cannot be shown unless God provides forgiveness for sin. However, God did show love and kindness to man without sin.
Saying sin was necessary for sinners to exist is circular reasoning.
The cross is the central focus of the Bible and the most important event in the history of the universe.
Agreed, but you must include the resurrection with that.
Sin was necessary for Christ to die on the cross for sins.
Agreed, but a form of circular reasoning.
The cross was God's plan before he built the universe.
God could not create anything as perfect as himself. He cannot create himself. Anything he would create must be inferior to him. God cannot deny his love when he creates living beings, so must give them free will and choice. This free will must give a living being the choice to do good or evil. God knew that man would exercise his free will and sin and provided a Saviour for man.
The problem with Calvinism is that it puts God in a straightjacket saying God must perform a certain way. It allows no flexibility in God's actions or decisions. But man can and does adapt to changing situations, is man greater than God?
God did not create man to be evil, but God knowing man would do evil provided a way of salvation for man through his Son Jesus.
I have used the argument of our automobiles. Does Ford build cars that it knows can exceed known speed limits? Yes.
Does that make Ford Motor Company responsible when you get pulled over for driving 80 MPH on the highway? No.
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You are wrong. You have been corrected. :tongue3:I think, correct me if I'm wrong, that point is when you are stumped.
I'm not stumped, just tired of repeating myself. There comes a time for my own sake and the sake of others that I need to back off.
I have answered repeatedly. See above.It's that point when all of your arguments have been answered and you are no longer able to answer the arguments put to you.
Of course it is. I totally agree. God allowing men to choose between good and evil does not negate His sovereignty.This is because the exhaustive Sovereignty of God is true.
I'm not sure what you mean, but death is the consequence of sin. God said so..He's sovereign you know.Sin is not an unintended consequence- such a thing is not possible with the Almighty. It's just not, is it?
Sin is not an unintended consequence- such a thing is not possible with the Almighty. It's just not, is it?
This would be true if man did not have free will and choice. If man does not have free will and choice, then he is nothing but a controlled, programmed robot following commands. If this were the case God would indeed be responsible for sin.
Free will puts you in control of your own actions and makes you responsible. If God tells you not to bear false witness (which he does), and you choose to tell a lie, you are responsible.
Your automobile was designed to exceed posted speed limits. A car must be able to exceed the posted limit in order to "cruise" at the speed limit. Man is the same, man must have the ability to choose in order to have the ability to love. There is no such thing as love without choice.
The company who manufactured your automobile is completely aware that it can exceed all posted limits. This does not make them responsible if you choose of your own free will to disregard the law and speed. It is the same with God, just because he gave us the ability to choose between good and evil does not make him responsible if you choose to do evil.
It is a very wicked doctrine that makes God responsible for man's decision to sin.
Old Union Brother
New Member
It is a very wicked doctrine that makes God responsible for man's decision to sin.
A big AMEN. :jesus:
Geneisis 1:4 And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
No where, that I have found, in the Bible is darkness ever called good.
The problem with Calvinism is that it puts God in a straightjacket saying God must perform a certain way. It allows no flexibility in God's actions or decision
Not a problem........
If man does not have free will and choice, then he is nothing but a controlled, programmed robot following commands. If this were the case God would indeed be responsible for sin.
Man is fully resonsible,yet his will is bound by his fallen dead sin nature
Jesus spoke about it [even before Calvin read this verse].....here in Jn8
Not a problem........
17Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: 18That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
19Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
If man does not have free will and choice, then he is nothing but a controlled, programmed robot following commands. If this were the case God would indeed be responsible for sin.
Man is fully resonsible,yet his will is bound by his fallen dead sin nature
Jesus spoke about it [even before Calvin read this verse].....here in Jn8
31Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
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Well, the scriptures show God changing his mind several times.
Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
If God intended man to sin as some have said here, then why was God grieved in his heart at man's wickedness? And if God can never change his mind, why do the scriptures say he repented that he had made man?
There are other examples.
2 Kings 20:1 In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And the prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz came to him, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live.
2 Kings 20:6 And I will add unto thy days fifteen years; and I will deliver thee and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for mine own sake, and for my servant David's sake.
God told Hezekiah to set his house in order because he would die. But after Hezekiah prayed to God, God decided to heal him and gave him fifteen more years to live.
1 Sam 15:35 And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.
God was not happy when the Jews wanted to make Saul king, nevertheless he gave Samuel permission to annoint him king (1 Samuel 8:22). Now we see that God repented that he made Saul king.
You can insist God cannot change his mind, the scriptures show God changing his mind several times.
God did not intend man to be evil, otherwise he would not have been grieved in his heart at man's wickedness. If God intended man to sin, then there would be no such thing as sin. How can you be sinning when you are obeying the Lord?
Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
If God intended man to sin as some have said here, then why was God grieved in his heart at man's wickedness? And if God can never change his mind, why do the scriptures say he repented that he had made man?
There are other examples.
2 Kings 20:1 In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And the prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz came to him, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live.
2 Kings 20:6 And I will add unto thy days fifteen years; and I will deliver thee and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for mine own sake, and for my servant David's sake.
God told Hezekiah to set his house in order because he would die. But after Hezekiah prayed to God, God decided to heal him and gave him fifteen more years to live.
1 Sam 15:35 And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.
God was not happy when the Jews wanted to make Saul king, nevertheless he gave Samuel permission to annoint him king (1 Samuel 8:22). Now we see that God repented that he made Saul king.
You can insist God cannot change his mind, the scriptures show God changing his mind several times.
God did not intend man to be evil, otherwise he would not have been grieved in his heart at man's wickedness. If God intended man to sin, then there would be no such thing as sin. How can you be sinning when you are obeying the Lord?
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